A positive look at the Nephilim

[Bryan Blaire]

Nice, elphilo. No tradition like that here. :D

 

As far as the Nephilim's capabilities, reading in the Codex entry pretty much says everything about the weapons options: the lascannon armament is really the only thing for enemy fliers, the avenger mega bolters are outfitted on craft to effectively fire on "xenos jetbikes" while the lascannon versions are also used against "heavier grav-vehicles."

 

That to me says that GW really didn't write this thing up with enemy flier destruction as the supreme design for this unit, it has a configuration capable of handling the role of bringing down enemy fliers (I know it was "sold" that way, but I don think it was truly written up for it), but it really only has a single weapon system that does that and since it is a Str 9 Twin-Linked, it will hopefully penetrate an AV 12 unit 2/3rds of the time when it hits, and since it is AP2, it adds the +1 to penetration rolls, so hopefully you are getting Weapon Destroyed or better results (and with Unrelenting Hunter you convert the Weapon Destroyed up to Immobilized, so each time - after the first Immobilized - you are peeling off an additional Hull Point at least). Two Penetrating Hits should hopefully take down any 3 or 4 Hull Point flier.

 

All the other weapons on the Nephilim really are better suited for ground attack, which is really what this looks more like anyway, especially with the avenger mega bolter: the A-10 Warthog - aerial infantry support.

[Harleqvin]

How many AV12 Flyers are there, in what people consider normal 40k? The Valkyrie and the StormRaven? Even then with that many shots I would think you would be able to glance it to death f you can't hit the tail end. Aren't all the others AV11, DodoGunner, Scythes, Ork planes, etc. The reason I think the Nephilim is good at anti-flyer, even with the Avenger Megabolter, is the weapon destroyed to immobalized rule. which should destroy most flyers, right?

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, the Weapon Destroyed -> Immobilized allows 2 HP to be knocked off each time it happens after you get the first Immobilized. The Avenger MB won't get the additional +1 on the Penetrating Hit table though, so rather than needing a 3+ to do something meaningful, you need a 4+.

 

I don't remember if the Vendetta (IIRC, AV12) is FW or not, but yes, I think the AV12 flyer list is Valkyrie, Helldrake, and Storm Raven. Everything else is either AV 10 or 11.

[Razblood]

The main issue I have with either the Nephilim or Dark Talon is the physical price!

 

The model is basically a Storm Talon with wings and a couple of extra bits of plastic yet where the Storm Talon costs £22.50 this costs Land Raider money at £45.00.

 

I dont get that!?! £30 I would understand because of the extra plastic, but £45! No chance GW, no chance in hell!

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

My gripe with the Nephilim is the points cost. 190 points?

 

If the avenger bolter had been rending, it would be worth it. As it stands, its not worth its price. If it had been 10-20 points cheaper, I would be wanting to field one, as it stands, I can think of more things I want points for. 170 points gives you 5 Devastators with Flakk Missiles, and thats already better overall against most things beyond the Nephilim, especially as it can pen all flyers.

 

Frag is also usually better against infantry, as is Krak against tanks. Overall, for what it does, it is just too expensive. Even the the StormTalon, at 130 points, is a better investment despite having 2 HP...

 

I think the better flyer of the 2 we got is the DarkTalon for its Rift Cannon and Stasis Bomb as well as cheaper points. Its a synergy weapon, yes, but it is very good at it. The Nephilim is good against infantry and light armour, but against flyers it falls down.

 

As for AV12 flyers: Valkyries, Vendettas, Ravens and Drakes. All of which are deadly, and comparable costs if not much cheaper and better! The Vendetta costs a similar amount and can nail a Nephilim, Drakes are cheaper and due to their not being the threat, they can still take a baleflamer and fry your Marines. Valkyries can carry troops, and Ravens are a bare 20 odd points more expensive and this is the BEST flyer from a codex. We are the second most expensive, yet there are easily 2-3 flyers better overall than our Nephilim at both ground-attack and anti-tank than our flyer.

 

I think it should have been cheaper, or the Mega-Bolter should have had rending, or our missiles had been 1 Strength higher. Amy of these things been different, and the Nephilim would be worth the 190 that it asks for.

[Harleqvin]

That is true, Bryan.

 

and Razblood, I agree the price is kinda high. Sadly as a lot of poeple pointed out over a lot of the kits. There are a lot of high priced items. I was a little surprised that the DW box was $60. I know why but it still kinda sucks. I see the DW box becoming the normal bought TDA box happening for a while and I know GW wants to make money. lqtm.

 

I know the AM can't Pen all Flyers on F/S. I see more people going for an attempt at hitting back armor if possible on those AV12 as most of them to my knowledge still have AV10 rear. I just see it glancing away at a lot of other flyers with all those shots. lqtm

[Onisuzume]

The main issue I have with either the Nephilim or Dark Talon is the physical price!

 

The model is basically a Storm Talon with wings and a couple of extra bits of plastic yet where the Storm Talon costs £22.50 this costs Land Raider money at £45.00.

 

I dont get that!?! £30 I would understand because of the extra plastic, but £45! No chance GW, no chance in hell!

Its the same price as that chaos Helldrake thing.

 

Also, how do those dog-fighting rules from Crusade of Fire change things?

[Disruptor_fe404]

My biggest targets in the air are actually flying Hive Tyrants, which sit behind 3+ armour saves combined with Iron Arm and/or Endurance; and the vast majority of Skyfire weapons are AP4. I would have loved for the six missiles to be a single Typhoon missile launcher instead.

[Xwingt65]

The model is sooooo good looking, it begs to be built and painted.

 

Then i will see how i works in the game...

[Upstartes]

I've been reading about how people are building lists, and people seem to be spending upwards of 250 - 300 points on DA anti-air (usually flakk devs and an Aegis line) or even more (300 - 400+) on an allied contingent. Although the Nephilim is definitely overcosted, at 180 points, it's cheaper than what people are using instead of it. The question becomes: are those more expensive AA options worth the extra points, or would a Nephilim + 100-200 points of other stuff (or even 2 Nephilims) be better?

 

On thing about the Nephilim as compared to devs is that it is not static. It zooms around and has a TLLC that may actually worry an opponent and/or disrupt his plans more than the devs standing behind an aegis line. And if you've got a darkshroud tooling around out there, park the neph over top of it and really distract your opponent with a hard to kill flyer that can take TLLC pot shots.

 

I feel like the Neph may have a roll, it just may not be the roll of "hit the table and kill a flyer each turn." It seems too expensive for what it does, but possibly the roll that it serves may be marginally worth the point. I'll be doing a lot of proxy games using my Storm Raven to represent a Nephilim to see how this idea really pans out before sinking $75 into the model.

[Terrahawk]

I think a Nephilim with a Mega bolter is going to be awesome at mowing down infantry and lightly armoured vehicles. Seven S6 shots coupled with three Twin-Linked S3 shots a turn is nothing to scoff at. It also has Strafing Run, which means it is BS5 against many targets and it also causes Pinning.

 

Think the Bolter version as a flying Baal Predator with better range and without rending, and you'll be more satisfied with it's performance. And if you need it, there's always the Lascannon for better anti-tank performance. It might be a few points overcosted for what it can do, although I think even that is too early to tell. It is one of the best models that has come out in a while, and I will enjoy building and using mine. :)

[IronDragon66]

I dont have the codex yet.....what are the weapon stats for the Rift Cannon on the Dark Talon???

[Rizara]

if I recall, it was str 5, large blast, ap -, but causes blind or some other status effect. It has a chance of doing dmg, but the real reason to use the dark talon is for situational improvement. It also comes with a statis bomb which does more status affects on the unit, I think it reduces the WS and I of the target unit, but its a one time use per game weapon. The dark talons main dmg is goign to be against infantry with the hurricane bolters it has, which is I think 6. The dark talon isn't your typical flyer, but an army enhancer at the end of a game, since it typically wont arrive till turn3 or later. It is something that will come in handy when trying to remove a unit off an objective though, so might still be worth fielding. I haven't got the dex, just trying to remember from memory as I looked over some of the stats.

[IronDragon66]

I didnt read all the posts......but,

Im really excited about all the flyers coming out for different races. It is bringing a brand new dimension to 40k, one that should have existed long ago. In real combat there are flyers and air support so why not in 40k? It has been a dimension of the battlefield in 40k that has been totally absent. It will be rough for awhile while people get used to incorporating these new units and tactics. When they have been around for awhile though, wow its gona be cool. At first all ya had to worry about was ground troops and armor.....maybe a deepstriking unit or two, but now :) You cant just prep for the foot sloggers and a few hard points, now you have to watch the skies :) This is gonna be really cool.

[Onisuzume]

I think a Nephilim with a Mega bolter is going to be awesome at mowing down infantry and lightly armoured vehicles. Seven S6 shots coupled with three Twin-Linked S3 shots a turn is nothing to scoff at. It also has Strafing Run, which means it is BS5 against many targets and it also causes Pinning.

Except that we don't get a Mega Bolter, we get an Avenger Bolt Cannon.

if I recall, it was str 5, large blast, ap -, but causes blind or some other status effect. It has a chance of doing dmg, but the real reason to use the dark talon is for situational improvement.

You blast a squad, and then let the DW Knights assault it.

Almost-instant victory.

It also comes with a statis bomb which does more status affects on the unit, I think it reduces the WS and I of the target unit, but its a one time use per game weapon.

Rift Cannon does blind, which makes the target unit WS/BS1 until the end of their next turn, so I'm guessing that the Stasis Bomb will reduce their initiative to 1.

[Sgt Danosef]

Onisuzume - you may wish to check your facts. The Nephilim Jetfighter can be equipped with an Avenger Mega Bolter. An Avenger Bolt Cannon is not mentioned once in the Codex.

[Onisuzume]

I don't have the codex yet, and the stats seemed to suggest the Avenger Bolt Cannon, like the one the Avenger flyer from FW has.

[Upstartes]

Nope. Similar name, but not as good. Str 6, AP4, Hvy 5.

[IronDragon66]

From the chatter it sounds like the Darktalon may be better than the Nephilim. It seems if you use the talon in conjunction with Deathwing strikes and supported by other infantry it would be more effective.

[Syphid]

Dark Talon seems neat, but I can't get over the feeling that it's just too limited. It has a one use bomb that can greatly improve an assault, and after that it does very little unless your opponent has unlucky initiative rolls.

[IanSturrock]

The Nephilim is massively overcosted. For a lot fewer points, the Vendetta gives you THREE twin-linked lascannons, and two heavy bolters, and transport capacity. This probably indicates the Vendetta will be getting a price hike next time IG get a new codex, but in the meantime, the Nephilim is a flying garbage truck (in game terms; it's a shame because it's by far the best Space Marine flyer model, in appearance terms).

[IronDragon66]

Thats why I like to run no limit games :) of course you can usually only do this if you play your games with a solid crew that doesnt complain alot and know each other really well.

[Ronin_eX]

Dark Talon seems neat, but I can't get over the feeling that it's just too limited. It has a one use bomb that can greatly improve an assault, and after that it does very little unless your opponent has unlucky initiative rolls.

 

Combine Blind with Stasis Grenades and you start to see where it comes in handy. Black Knights fire Stasis and Rad Grenades in to a unit, Dark Talon hits it with the Rift Cannon. Even I4 units are Blind 50% of the time now (Necrons and Orks are much worse off ofcourse). Now the enemy is striking after most of your units, down a point of tougness and unable to hit back effectively. Ram a squad of Deathwing Knights in there and you're golden. If it happens to be the enemy's bil ol' deathstar then he probably wishes he wasn't there about now. For extra fun drop Prescience on the DWKs and declare Smite.

 

The Dark Talon is all about supporting things. You take it for the same reason you take a Librarian. Not because it will tear apart a unit on its own, but because it will basically make a unit completely useless after it is done. And it does it in a way that one round of shooting with a unit of similar cost simply would not achieve.

 

It is a force multiplier, it doesn't win a battle on its own, but it multiplies the effect of every other squad it supports. 160 points for that isn't too terrible in my opinion.

[Cactus]

All this discussion about the Nephilim's anti-air capability and I haven't seen one mention of its Unrelenting Hunter special rule. It seems to me that with a lascannon the majority of hits vs flyers will penetrate, so the ability to convert 'weapon destroyed' to 'immobilised' and thus cause the target to lock velocity should be taken into consideration.

[Upstartes]

When comparing codexes or competing armies, it makes sense to ask, "how does this unit's cost & power compare to unit X in Codex Y?" By that measure, the Neph clearly falls short. However, when building a list, that is not the right question. The right questions are, "how does this unit's effectiveness compare to other units I might spend the same points on?" and "how does this unit's cost and effectiveness compare to the cost and effectiveness of the other units I could field to fill a similar roll in the list?" By these second measures, I don't think the Neph is garbage. It's just not good enough to be a no-brainer for the anti-air roll in a list. On the other hand, I don't think it's a no-brainer to leave out of every list either. Most "better" AA choices are more expensive. I think some lists may have a place for a Neph.