Anabis_Xero Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 What about 2 Nephilims? Together, they are 60-ish points more than a Storm Eagle equipped to handle fyers, and also not much more expensive than a 4xML dev squad with flakk and an aegis line with quad gun. Fills up 2 FA slots, but that wouldn't be so bad in a list with Sammael or Azrael, or in a DW-heavy force. Of course, that's like $150 of jetfighters... Not sure how well it will function but this is what I plan on. I want to run a pure ravenwing list and when making lists the only reliable and i use the term lightly way I can think of threating flyers is either a massed Landspeeder Typhoon squad and pray for 6's to hit or running 2 neph and praying for 6's to glance (on av12). I like the flyers personaly, both the models and the way they perform so thats what im leaning towards. Also dont forget about the ability to exchange weapon destroyed to imobolized is a nice little rule to have for when you need it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3303460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarFromSam Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Mid read of Ravenwing by Gav Thorpe and at the bottom of pg181 he describes the Nephilim as "four lascannon armed Nephilim." Perhaps the Neph was originally intended to have a pair of twin-linked Lascannons and was never repriced afterwards. Can someone check their copy? Maybe I have misread and he is describing multiple Nephilims in the battle. Has this already been brought up? If so can someone provide a link if possible so that I might be caught up. Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3304038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Lucian Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Would have been so much more usefull.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3304191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upstartes Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Does the book quote actually mean 1x Nephelim with 4x lascannons? Or does it mean 4x Nephelims, each armed with lascannons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3304198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehoel Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Ravenwing page 181, final paragraph. "Stabs of blue light spat out from the four lascannon-armed Nephilim forming the tip of the Dark Angels attack," I would have to say that there are four Nephilim being described there. How do I do the spoiler thing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3304352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarFromSam Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Thanks Jehoel. The odd wording threw me off. I haven't finished the book yet but I don't think that will spoil anything... If it does I'm glad I understand it now! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3304363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebukkuk Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Nephilim is a plural Hebrew word meaning roughly "they who have descended from above". The way it's used in the sentence, I agree that Gav meant four of the Jetfighters on page 181. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3304387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 In the light of the DFTS compendium where according to info the Stormtalon is cheaper than before i think that now the Nphilim really has the title of worst AA flyer of all 40k... I guess that if before i was not sure about it now i am sure that i will not field any DA flyer unless they fix them... What do you think about this new situation that made the Nephilim even more overcosted compared to the competitors??? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3309571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 What competitors? we don't have any other flyer unless we ally so, really there's no competition ;) ... the Nephilim is all we got and either we use it or find alternatives to AA. In any case this thread is about positives of the nephilim not ranting on how it is underperformant or overcosted.. there are other threads dealing with that already. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3309591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 yeah, I have to say that I'm pretty upset about it too. A storm talon with TLLC is 45 points cheaper than the nephilim. The biggest difference being that the nephilim has an extra hull point and some missiles. Not at all worth 45 points. If GW was trying to balance out flyers, bringing the storm talon down in points sure isn't the way to do it. No, it seems to me Vetock finds flyers too overpowered and decided to make the DA ones overpriced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3309595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Here's what's positive about the nephilim...it's better than the dark talon. A S5 blast with no AP? Blech, even with blind. The hurricane bolters? Only amazing if you hover over the standard of devastation for 24 twinlinked shots. The stasis bomb is cool...but extremely situational, and certainly not worth the points. The nephilim is decent, but not great. It can get 10 shots per turn, which is nice...but only seven of them are really a threat against enemy fliers, and ten shots for 180 points isn't really horde control, either. I'd have to use it almost exclusively against the rear armor of vehicles...and the most threatening vehicles (proppa tanks) have an easy defense...back against the board edge...so the nephilim is no threat at all to russes and vindies! It could earn its keep blowing up rhinos...except that the time to do that is turns one and two! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3309667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Here's what's positive about the nephilim...it's better than the dark talon. A S5 blast with no AP? Blech, even with blind. The hurricane bolters? Only amazing if you hover over the standard of devastation for 24 twinlinked shots. The stasis bomb is cool...but extremely situational, and certainly not worth the points. The nephilim is decent, but not great. It can get 10 shots per turn, which is nice...but only seven of them are really a threat against enemy fliers, and ten shots for 180 points isn't really horde control, either. I'd have to use it almost exclusively against the rear armor of vehicles...and the most threatening vehicles (proppa tanks) have an easy defense...back against the board edge...so the nephilim is no threat at all to russes and vindies! It could earn its keep blowing up rhinos...except that the time to do that is turns one and two! The Dark Talon should be used together with Black knights/Ravenwing command squad. Let them shoot of a stasis grenade first, lowering their initiative by 1. Then shoot of the Rift cannon. Against SMs there will be a 50% chance that they will fail with ini 3, thus giving them BS/WS1. Against Necrons who are pretty much dedicated to shooting... they will only succeed the roll on a 1. Orks, IG (2 or less though), Tau same thing. Of course, players tend to be more focused on killing stuff, than debuffing the enemy. I for one think it can be a very powerful tool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3309696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 @Lucifer... with competitors i wan meaning flyers from other armies... the nephilim has almost decent stats compared to other flyers but it's too much overpriced and other FA choices are way better to let hte NJ rest in its box on the shelf of the shop... I dont think that the DT is so poor compared to the NJ... they have two different roles.. the DT is used to debuff enemy units while the NJ is good to deal damage... The could have a good role on the BF but the work a DT does can be done by the BK grenade launchers too and the work a NJ does can be done by Flak devs at the same points value... I bought one DA flyer and it's still in its box and i will paint one only if i will play Apo so the high pont cost will be a small problem in a 5000 pts army... I dont think i will buy more of them atm... The only positive thing about DA flyers is that if you dont buy them you have 60€/75$ to buy more useful DA/RW/DW boxes... :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3309743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upstartes Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I would be more inclined to use the Nephilim if the model wasn't so expensive. I find it hard to shell out that much.cash for something that will perform so-so in battle. I think 2 Nephilim would work well, but I can find better units to spend $150 on. Having the model overcosted in points AND dollars is a tough sell. Literally. And I want to like it. I do. It looks cool. It's Ravenwing. But... But.... sigh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3309755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I would be more inclined to use the Nephilim if the model wasn't so expensive. I find it hard to shell out that much.cash for something that will perform so-so in battle. I think 2 Nephilim would work well, but I can find better units to spend $150 on. Having the model overcosted in points AND dollars is a tough sell. Literally. And I want to like it. I do. It looks cool. It's Ravenwing. But... But.... sigh I know... i bought one and wanted to field it... But i keep it in its box waiting better times... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3309774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Zaius Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Here's what's positive about the nephilim...it's better than the dark talon. A S5 blast with no AP? Blech, even with blind. The hurricane bolters? Only amazing if you hover over the standard of devastation for 24 twinlinked shots. The stasis bomb is cool...but extremely situational, and certainly not worth the points. The nephilim is decent, but not great. It can get 10 shots per turn, which is nice...but only seven of them are really a threat against enemy fliers, and ten shots for 180 points isn't really horde control, either. I'd have to use it almost exclusively against the rear armor of vehicles...and the most threatening vehicles (proppa tanks) have an easy defense...back against the board edge...so the nephilim is no threat at all to russes and vindies! It could earn its keep blowing up rhinos...except that the time to do that is turns one and two! The Dark Talon should be used together with Black knights/Ravenwing command squad. Let them shoot of a stasis grenade first, lowering their initiative by 1. Then shoot of the Rift cannon. Against SMs there will be a 50% chance that they will fail with ini 3, thus giving them BS/WS1. Against Necrons who are pretty much dedicated to shooting... they will only succeed the roll on a 1. Orks, IG (2 or less though), Tau same thing. Of course, players tend to be more focused on killing stuff, than debuffing the enemy. I for one think it can be a very powerful tool. Dark Talon + SW Jaws of the Wolf World or GK Warp Rift from a Ally detachment could be devastating. On both cases you must take a n iniciative test or remove one model from the game without any saving throw. Imagine it with a -3I penalty! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3319854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Here's what's positive about the nephilim...it's better than the dark talon. A S5 blast with no AP? Blech, even with blind. The hurricane bolters? Only amazing if you hover over the standard of devastation for 24 twinlinked shots. The stasis bomb is cool...but extremely situational, and certainly not worth the points. The nephilim is decent, but not great. It can get 10 shots per turn, which is nice...but only seven of them are really a threat against enemy fliers, and ten shots for 180 points isn't really horde control, either. I'd have to use it almost exclusively against the rear armor of vehicles...and the most threatening vehicles (proppa tanks) have an easy defense...back against the board edge...so the nephilim is no threat at all to russes and vindies! It could earn its keep blowing up rhinos...except that the time to do that is turns one and two! The Dark Talon should be used together with Black knights/Ravenwing command squad. Let them shoot of a stasis grenade first, lowering their initiative by 1. Then shoot of the Rift cannon. Against SMs there will be a 50% chance that they will fail with ini 3, thus giving them BS/WS1. Against Necrons who are pretty much dedicated to shooting... they will only succeed the roll on a 1. Orks, IG (2 or less though), Tau same thing. Of course, players tend to be more focused on killing stuff, than debuffing the enemy. I for one think it can be a very powerful tool. Dark Talon + SW Jaws of the Wolf World or GK Warp Rift from a Ally detachment could be devastating. On both cases you must take a n iniciative test or remove one model from the game without any saving throw. Imagine it with a -3I penalty! Well thats nasty really. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3319976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardimanm Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I have used the Nephilim in 3 games so far. 2 VS Orks and 1 VS another Dark Angels Player. While it has not been a world beater by any means it has been very effective. All 3 games i have equipped it with the Avenger Mega Bolter since, to me, it pairs up with the Heavy Bolters and the Missiles best. This also prevents me from being tempted to use the TLLC against harder targets and wasting the other weapons. Against Orks I have been able to take down the Dakka Jets with little problem and by picking on smaller units I have been able to pin them down or completely wipe them out. Against the Dark Angels i was able to soften up 2ea 5 man tact squads and completely destroy a 5 man Ravenwing Attack Squad. I have had the best of luck running it close to my RW Black Knights and softening up a unit before they assault into it. I agree that neither of the DA fliers can compete with the Storm Raven or the Valks but it I have noticed that is distracts the enemy and sometimes makes them make rash decisions. To me this unit will never win a game by itself nor probably ever be the MVP of the game but it has been very fun to use and provided decent results. I think that the biggest problem with the model is the fluff behind it. It was marketed as an air superiority fighter. It is FAR from that. It excels at taking out light armor and softening/pinning light troops. Just my random thoughts on it...take them for what they are worth Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3320072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Caliban Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 · Hidden by Chaplain Lucifer, March 5, 2013 - Off topic Hidden by Chaplain Lucifer, March 5, 2013 - Off topic By jove I've got it! Vetock had a brainfart, and when he put missile lock, he meant to type Armour bane. That would explain the high price, and relatively poor str/ap! No I think Vetock had a stroke and that's why the book is so scattered. I have never seen such incompetence. The flier is merely one example of a book riddled with halfhearted ideas reluctantly written with no creativity and an overcautious demeanor. Sad. On Topic Also, what a waste, GW could actually sell a lot of the OK looking model if they actually had some conviction in it. People moan about Matt Ward, well at least he had conviction in what he was doing and some confidence. Not this nobody Vetock who was given a great opportunity only to come half way and hope for the best. He could not even grace the fans with the effort to proof read his hardbound £30 sanitary towel holder of a codex. On another note the Avenger Mega Bolter exists in the game (Forgeworld) and is as it should be with better stats; however Vetock clearly considered it appropriate to just alter these rules and render his unit useless. Or maybe like the rest of the codex he had no such care and thought he would just write something safe and uninspiring. Enough said. Shoot me down for flaming but do it with conviction and hit me with some kind of missiles and imagine them as missiles of decent strength and AP. There you go, you did it and you're not even a games designer that was'int even hard. It's disgusting and that is my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3320219
Mattias Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 · Hidden by Chaplain Lucifer, March 5, 2013 - Off topic Hidden by Chaplain Lucifer, March 5, 2013 - Off topic I think that is probably overly harsh, to me it just seems as though the Nephilim suffered from a late change in direction in its design concept, I suspect that the missiles originally had blast to tie in with the missile lock special rule (which would have made it an excellent ground support unit), then a decision was made to make it a dog-fighter, blast was removed so the missiles could target aircraft (although missile lock was not) and unfortunately the strength and AP were not increased to reflect the single shot nature of the missiles. Sadly the end result is a flyer that is overpriced and does not have weapon systems that give it a defined role, it seems to have got stuck halfway between the two concepts. To make it usable they need to do something to the missiles so that they are actually more effective than tying a guardsman with a grenade launcher under each wing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3320247
Onisuzume Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 · Hidden by Chaplain Lucifer, March 5, 2013 - Ôff topic Hidden by Chaplain Lucifer, March 5, 2013 - Ôff topic On another note the Avenger Mega Bolter exists in the game (Forgeworld)and is as it should be with better stats; however Vetockclearly considered it appropriate to just alter these rules and renderhis unit useless. Or maybe like the rest of the codex he had no suchcare and thought he would just write something safe and uninspiring. It doesn't, actually. C:DA is the only instance of the Avenger Mega Bolter. The FW flyer uses an Avenger Bolt Cannon instead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269295-a-positive-look-at-the-nephilim/page/4/#findComment-3320440
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