mustardParty Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Hello esteemed battle brothers, So I've been doing a lot of list noodling lately. I haven't had a lot of time to play against my chums over the holidays, family is just entirely too demanding! But that means I've had extra time to over think things. My regular buddies play Space Wolves and Chaos respectively. The puppies have ALWAYS been a hard nut to crack, and now with our lamentable loss of I5 assaults, the rank and file BA trooper simply isn't all that fighty. Grey Hunters love ASM charges now... And on the other end, monstrous creatures simply eat assault marines like cereal. I know the changes in 6th have brought both good and bad, but I think that at this point it is fairly safe to say that Codex: Blood Angels is starting to show age, and we don't have as many cool tricks as we used to. No more DOA, not that it was ever that optimal, but it was unique to our chapter, and fun as hell No more ASM's able to edge out assault against their power armor equals Our high initiative characters now suffer initiative penalties due to clunky bolt-on rules - I mean, say what you like when it comes to power weapons, the variety is cool and all, but why give Dante such a high Initiative rating and then bog him down after the fact with an I1 weapon, especially when someone like Khârn get's FAQ'd in the opposite direction in the same circumstance, so now you're not even being consistent with your own retconning.... Our heavy hitter anti-HQ characters both suffer from the power weapon update since they're now AP3, and the elite HQ's out there are usually 2+ None of this is particularly new. We've had time to make adjustments, and there are still some tricks in this old dog's codex, and some got better. I'm talking specifically about: T5 FNP Bikes and Army-wide FNP coupled with highly mobile shooting FNP is arguably better now that the only thing that can negate it are instant death hits. And now that bikes are a flat T5, T5+FNP AND relentless seems like a no-brainer to me. And we still have some of the most mobile and flexible Troops units in the game. In the last edition, jump-pack models with rapid fire weapons made no sense - but now you can really take advantage of the mobility and the range. So with that in mind, I'm cooking up something that looks a little like this for my next close encounter: HQ: Libby: JP, Combi-Plas Honor Guard: JP, x4 Plasma Elites: Sanguinary Priest on a Bike: Power Sword Troops: 10-man ASM: JP, x2 Plasma 10-man ASM: JP, x2 Plasma 10-man ASM: JP, x2 Plasma Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squad (3 bikes): x3 Multi-Melta Bike Squad: 5 bikes, x2 Plasma, Combi-Plasma Sarge That and some upgrades for a few sergeants comes to around 1500 (we play in that range mostly). The idea here is playing up one of our key strengths: mobility. With all these fast units, I'm free to dictate the terms of engagement. All this low AP rapid fire shooting is highly mobile, allowing me to continually outrange my opponent's charge radius, or jump in tight and concentrate heave plasma on a single target to bring it down - and combat squads can always finish-off anything leftover. And then there are also the bikes - T5 and S5 on the charge, they can also swoop in and charge weakened units, or tie tough units up. I understand that some army's can simply outshoot this kind of list at 24inches. The philosophy relies on FNP to help negate some of this, as well as smart play for concentration in space, so I aways have more of my guys in one area winning the fights that I pick. I tried to leave the list component loose - I know this isn't the army list forum, but well, it's not working yet! Plus, this is still more of a philosophical discussion at this point, and I'd love the community's take on the merits and short comings of this kind of approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
company veteran Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 What do you mean no more DOA? also, instead of honour guard, it might be worth taking 6 sternguard with 5 combi plas.. it will run you the same points but is slightly more versatile with the different ammo types (12 shots wounding anything on 2+.. yes please!) and for the points you are paying for that sang priest i would much rather take corbulo.. sure he wont be on a bike but his upgraded stats and equipment make it worthwhile.. also his 2+ feel no pain he makes for an awesome look out sir guy.. if one of your characters takes a hit and fails his save simply look out sir wth corbulo and he pretty much shrugs anything off. also dont forget that FNP has been downpowered to 5+ now... it makes a BIG difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Rainbow Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 and for the points you are paying for that sang priest i would much rather take corbulo.. sure he wont be on a bike You said it yourself. He won't be on a bike & that's a big problem for a list like this that is focussing on mobility! I like the list though I think you might end up playing the Eldar game of winning on objectives and never blowing anyone away. You'll be forced to box clever and keep out of harms way before a mad dash at the end. Also, have you thought which unit could hold a backfield objective of your own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evicerator Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I'm toying with a Plasma heavy list at the moment. I like its potential given its shootiness and strength. I, too, would suggest a drop pod sternguard with combi-plasma. These guys are arguably one of the best tactical units we can shove at an enemy. I recently found this out and now I love them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 "also his 2+ feel no pain he makes for an awesome look out sir guy.. if one of your characters takes a hit and fails his save simply look out sir wth corbulo and he pretty much shrugs anything off." LoS is before the save, not after. As to the rest. BA are MOBILE not FIGHTY. A BA assault squad was never supposed to crush a C:SM assault squad, but three BA squads with a priest can still wipe out one. And we can still easily pull that off. Even 2:1 with a priest is passable. The problem with plasma is that others do it better, space puppies will see your two plasma rifles and 8 bolt pistols, and offer you two plasma rifles and 8 bolt guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
company veteran Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 look out sir (p16 brb): when a wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated... feel no pain (p35 brb) when a model with this rule suffers an unsaved wound... this makes corbulo AMAZING. i run some sternguard with tycho and corbulo.. tycho sits out the front so as to take enemy fire he will either get his 2+ or 4+ depending on what he is hit with.. if i fail his save then on a 2+ i can throw the wound onto corbulo for a 2+ save. this tactic eats enemy firepower and laughs in its face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I tested a list like this . II had no bikes/HG [used a SR instead of those] wasnt bad , but in the end SW seemed to be the more flexible of choice . bolters are crapy weapons , but offten that one or two wounds done are important. technicly wiht jp you have the same range , but bolter armed units dont have to go within 12" of a unit they are trying to double tap[and if they do they have double the bolter fire] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 look out sir (p16 brb): when a wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated... feel no pain (p35 brb) when a model with this rule suffers an unsaved wound... this makes corbulo AMAZING. i run some sternguard with tycho and corbulo.. tycho sits out the front so as to take enemy fire he will either get his 2+ or 4+ depending on what he is hit with.. if i fail his save then on a 2+ i can throw the wound onto corbulo for a 2+ save. this tactic eats enemy firepower and laughs in its face. the FAQ fixed this. Look out sir is before saves and must go to the closest model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
company veteran Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 dang it! that'l teach me.. apologies everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Rainbow Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Whilst Corbs is undoubtedly pretty amazing against anything below Str.8, I still question why you would want to put a footslogger in such a list as this with the main emphasis on mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
company veteran Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 i guess... the honour guard are footslogging though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustardParty Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 What do you mean no more DOA? also, instead of honour guard, it might be worth taking 6 sternguard with 5 combi plas.. it will run you the same points but is slightly more versatile with the different ammo types (12 shots wounding anything on 2+.. yes please!) DOA - Decent of Angels - as in, all models in your army have a jump pack and start in reserves. I did consider sternies and I still like the idea, but ultimately this list survives by superior mobility. Sternies are great on that first tern they come down, but lose their synergy after that since they can't keep up with the rest of the army. Still I might include some in larger games beyond 1500 points. BA are MOBILE not FIGHTY. ... The problem with plasma is that others do it better, space puppies will see your two plasma rifles and 8 bolt pistols, and offer you two plasma rifles and 8 bolt guns. Exactly. This list isn't going to roll any of the tougher armies out there - and that's really the thing at this point: all the elite army's out there now do what we do but better. The one thing BA still have going for them is incredible mobility. So Grey Hunters will outshoot me one on one, that's why that pack will have out shoot 3 assault squads instead of one. He can only fire at one unit at a time, all 3 can concentrate on them. I like the list though I think you might end up playing the Eldar game of winning on objectives and never blowing anyone away. You'll be forced to box clever and keep out of harms way before a mad dash at the end. Also, have you thought which unit could hold a backfield objective of your own? Pretty much. This isn't about awesome over the top firepower anymore. We can't bring it like other top tier army's, end of story. So it's like you say, it's like a boxing match, keeping the other guy off his toes, choosing where to make my strikes and keeping out of range of the main body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustardParty Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 i guess... the honour guard are footslogging though Oh yeah, look at that. Whoops, the honor guard are sporting jump packs too, sorry - I edited the main post to reflect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
company veteran Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 now it makes sense :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Rainbow Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Also, I don't think that sticking Corbulo in a unit of Honor Guard is a great idea as you are wasting their inherent priest abilities from the novitiate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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