DA alpha strike

[IndigoJack]

So I've done a twice over on the codex, and I have to say, I think we might have the second best alpha strike in the game next to daemons.

 

For example:

 

Belial

 

3x DW with CMLs

 

2x vets with 4x combi-meltas, a melta gun, and a drop pod

 

1x 5 man tac squad with ML (w/ flakk) and a drop pod

 

total 1405pts

 

That's 5 in-your-face units turn one. Wow. Add to that DW's split fire and vengeful strike? Disgusting. Oh and, belial's unit doesn't scatter.

 

Assault DW are out, shooty DW are in. I still don't think a pure DW force is going to be a viable competitive option anymore, but DW with support are going to be pretty amazing. Add to that the amount of units that can take flakk missiles (4!) and we have an army that's even decently equipped to handle fliers (though, this is going to require playtesting). So many viable cominations now... I can't wait to see what everyone comes up with!

[shabbadoo]

Don't be too sure, as there is no rule which countermands the 50% Reserves restriction.

 

Still half an army, exactly when you want it, and (due to teleport homers), right where you want it, will be a very good thing. Belial in a Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer (it will be very hard to stop Land Raiders with the DW Vehicle rule), with an assulty DW unit with him, barrel forward on turn one Flat Out. Then turn 2 the more shooty than choppy Reserves DWA in within 6" of Belial's Land Raider (Belial having a teleport homer), Vengeful Strike the snot out of the enemy, while Belial and Friends (in his Land Raider) then move in and assault to lock up as much enemy as they can. All of that while you hve DW Dreads with twin autocannons cover the field too.

 

That's just one configuration of course.

[Onisuzume]

I still don't think a pure DW force is going to be a viable competitive option anymore

Then you're playing them wrong.

A couple of years back we had someone (Lemariont, I think) who managed to place 2nd or 3rd place with Pure-DW.

That was before hammernators and such.

[IndigoJack]

Don't be too sure, as there is no rule which countermands the 50% Reserves restriction.

 

Still half an army, exactly when you want it, and (due to teleport homers), right where you want it, will be a very good thing. Belial in a Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer (it will be very hard to stop Land Raiders with the DW Vehicle rule), with an assulty DW unit with him, barrel forward on turn one Flat Out. Then turn 2 the more shooty than choppy Reserves DWA in within 6" of Belial's Land Raider (Belial having a teleport homer), Vengeful Strike the snot out of the enemy, while Belial and Friends (in his Land Raider) then move in and assault to lock up as much enemy as they can. All of that while you hve DW Dreads with twin autocannons cover the field too.

 

That's just one configuration of course.

 

Units in drop pods don't count against that restriction since the drop pods have to be in reserves, so that leaves only 4 units (belial and the 3 DW) in reserves. I don't think it would be a problem putting a few more units in the list to get the DW into reserves. The list was just a "sketch" of a possible idea.

 

I'd already forgotten belial and a TP homer haha. I'm not sold on the DW vehicle upgrade idea, since re-rolling on the damage chart only applies to penetrating hits. It's just another thing that will require playtesting haha.

 

 

I still don't think a pure DW force is going to be a viable competitive option anymore

Then you're playing them wrong.

A couple of years back we had someone (Lemariont, I think) who managed to place 2nd or 3rd place with Pure-DW.

That was before hammernators and such.

 

To be fair, the codex was only released 9 hours ago, so I don't think many people have had a chance to play DW right or wrong. A lot has changed in a couple years. Two very shooty armies have shown up, and 6th ed has seen a rise in plasma and AP2 in general.

[shabbadoo]

Units in drop pods don't count against that restriction since the drop pods have to be in reserves...

Right. A unit and its dedicated transport, which is essentially a unit upgrade in this case, are considered to be one unit when held in Reserve, unlike, say, a Tactical Squad and a Predator which are considered to be two separate units when held in reserve, as they are completely independent of one another.

 

DW will be a bit nastier now. Glad to see they can now do something for the extra points they pay, because weapon options and Fearless on a Terminator unit is not worth much.

[Lion El Jason]

Don't be too sure, as there is no rule which countermands the 50% Reserves restriction.

 

Don't know if you have seen elsewhere but RAW says DWA does not have to abide by the 50% restriction. The units making a DWA are chosen before that rule applies and are never at any point said to be put in reserves.

The DWA rule is (As RAW) a third way to get troops onto the table, you can deploy them, put them in reserves or DWA.

 

Don't know if this is intentional or if it will be FAQd.

[Bryan Blaire]

LEJ, you are missing the rule on Deep Strike from the Big Green Book. Pg 36 "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." Since the DWA rules says that they "arrive via Deep Strike", then they must follow all other rules for Deep Strike except those overridden by DWA itself, which is only that they do not role for reserves, but like wizards, are never late and arrive exactly when they intend to.

[Lion El Jason]

LEJ, you are missing the rule on Deep Strike from the Big Green Book. Pg 36 "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." Since the DWA rules says that they arrive via Deep Strike, then they must follow all other rules for Deep Strike except those overridden by DWA itself, which is only that they do not role for reserves, but like wizards, are never late and arrive exactly when they intend to.

 

I am not missing that. First think of this the exact rule you quoted:

 

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve."

 

They do not have the DS rule, so why are you ignoring half the rule and not the rest?

 

Also think of things like Gate of Infinity, that uses the Deep Strike rule and obviously ignores both of those.

 

 

As I say, it may well be the intent that we can do this, or it may get FAQd, but RAW I can see no other argument.

[Bryan Blaire]

They do not have the DS rule, so why are you ignoring half the rule and not the rest?

Ah, but they do. Pg 65, Terminator Armor: "models in Terminator armor have the Bulky, Deep Strike, and Relentless rules"

 

Also think of things like Gate of Infinity, that uses the Deep Strike rule and obviously ignores both of those.

Yes, but Gate of Infinity is a specific Psyker ability, and doesn't set precedent for Terminator rules. Psyker =/= modified Terminator Deep Strike rule.

 

As I say, it may well be the intent that we can do this, or it may get FAQd, but RAW I can see no other argument.

You can't argue intent to allow it this way and then state RAW. There is no argument. They have Deep Strike. The DWA rule says they arrive via Deep Strike, then goes on to modify how via Deep Strike they arrive. All other portions of the Deep Strike rules remain in effect exactly as written. There is nothing to FAQ, there's nothing to argue over. If you try what you are suggesting in a game, your opponent would be more than in their rights to call you out on it. Your interpretation/reading has no grounds in logic or rules.

[shabbadoo]

I think you are going to be alone in your argument, which comes off as a rules lawyer argument (not a complimentary thing), LionElJason. Also, what you and everyone else is failing to mention (or realize) is that Gate of Infinity and similar powers affects a unit *that is already in play*, not one in Reserves, so the comparison is not a comparison at all. A better comparison would be the Daemons rule...but that wouldn't support your point of view at all, so it would be best to ignore it. "My units are not in Reserve- they are in Deathwing Assault." I wouldn't recommend actually saying that to an opponent, because that is when metal models get put into a sock and people get beaten with it. Hmmm. Maybe that is the true reason for the switch to Finecast. :D

[Lion El Jason]

I am specifically avoiding doing this at this time. I have simply noted what the rule says.

 

Ah, but they do. Pg 65, Terminator Armor: "models in Terminator armor have the Bulky, Deep Strike, and Relentless rules"

 

Aah, I did miss this, but I am not sure it makes a difference.

 

The DWA rule says they arrive via Deep Strike, then goes on to modify how via Deep Strike they arrive.

 

Actually no, it modifies deployment (Actually it happens long before deployment) and then states to use DS to determine how they get on the board, just like gate of infinity. I mention the Gate power as it basically disproves the entire notion that a special rule cannot let you DS without going in reserves.

 

As I say I am still not sure about how this will end up but to say they have to go in reserve you have to add that to DWA yourself, the rule never mentions it.

[Bryan Blaire]

As I say I am still not sure about how this will end up but to say they have to go in reserve you have to add that to DWA yourself, the rule never mentions it.

You are making a baseless argument, which was also told to you at Warseer. You are purposefully ignoring the rule that tells you specifically how it works (Deep Strike rule, pg 36 BGB). You are making a rules lawyering argument that has no basis in fact.

 

They arrive via Deep Strike. Deep Strike tells you specifically how it works. DWA specifies how the Deep Strike rules are modified for resolution. The rule never mentions Reserves because it doesn't have to. The rule references Deep Strike, which requires reserves (namely, deployed from off the table). They do not come from Mallet-space, Piano-space, or Deathwing Assault-space or any other imaginary space that could be thought of to support the argument that they do not arrive from Reserves. The Deep Strike rules specify how you arrive from Deep Strike, which is exactly what DWA says, and it states on page 36 "Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves (There's that pesky Reserves again, it just keeps coming up, almost like the rules were telling you exactly how they work) and then deploy as follows:. So not only is it a Reserves rule, but it is also specifically a Deployment rule, so therefore it logically can't happen "long before deployment" as well.

 

You keep bringing up Gate of Infinity, but you don't seem to understand that it provides you 0 support in your argument (which you are making, you are not simply "stating how the rule works", you are making a fraudulent argument based on your own interpretation of the rule, not reading how the rule is written). Gate of Infinity says that the models are removed from the table-top (sounds a bit like a redeployment or a temporary reserves situation to me) and then returned immediately using the Deep Strike rules. It goes on to tell you specifically how to resolve the Deep Strike rules, just like DWA as written does.

 

You have no rules support in your "Rules as Intepreted" version of DWA.

[Lion El Jason]

As I say I am still not sure about how this will end up but to say they have to go in reserve you have to add that to DWA yourself, the rule never mentions it.

You are making a baseless argument, which was also told to you at Warseer. You are purposefully ignoring the rule that tells you specifically how it works (Deep Strike rule, pg 36 BGB). You are making a rules lawyering argument that has no basis in fact.

 

They arrive via Deep Strike. Deep Strike tells you specifically how it works. DWA specifies how the Deep Strike rules are modified for resolution. The rule never mentions Reserves because it doesn't have to. The rule references Deep Strike, which requires reserves (namely, deployed from off the table).

 

You keep bringing up Gate of Infinity, but you don't seem to understand that it provides you 0 support in your argument (which you are making, you are not simply "stating how the rule works", you are making a fraudulent argument based on your own interpretation of the rule, not reading how the rule is written). Gate of Infinity says that the models are removed from the table-top (sounds a bit like a redeployment or a temporary reserves situation to me) and then returned immediately using the Deep Strike rules. It goes on to tell you specifically how to resolve the Deep Strike rules, just like DWA as written does.

 

You have no rules support in your "Rules as Intepreted" version of DWA.

 

 

I think you need to calm down, its just a discussion. Its ok, nothing bad happens if don't rant and rave on a forum ;)

 

I have stated my case, I can't make it clearer, if you still don't understand I can do no more. Take a deep breath, maybe count to 10. I don't need to be flamed here. Using words you have heard others use like "Logic" and "Argument" does not help unless you actually contribute. Please less bile and viciousness, people can just talk.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think you need to calm down, its just a discussion. Its ok, nothing bad happens if don't rant and rave on a forum ;)

 

I have stated my case, I can't make it clearer, if you still don't understand I can do no more. Take a deep breath, maybe count to 10. I don't need to be flamed here. Using words you have heard others use like "Logic" and "Argument" does not help unless you actually contribute. Please less bile and viciousness, people can just talk.

I'm not using words others have used, if you will notice, I'm specifically using the Codex and Big Green Book to show you exactly what is written. I'm explaining to you how the rules are written. It isn't flaming to point out how the rules are actually physically written in a book.

[Droma]

I think you need to calm down, its just a discussion. Its ok, nothing bad happens if don't rant and rave on a forum

I have stated my case, I can't make it clearer, if you still don't understand I can do no more. Take a deep breath, maybe count to 10. I don't need to be flamed here. Using words you have heard others use like "Logic" and "Argument" does not help unless you actually contribute. Please less bile and viciousness, people can just talk.

I'm not using words others have used, if you will notice, I'm specifically using the Codex and Big Green Book to show you exactly what is written. I'm explaining to you how the rules are written. It isn't flaming to point out how the rules are actually physically written in a book.

Carefull, I almost got banned from warseer for telling someone to read the codex.

[Harleqvin]

Most places seem to go by, The not counting towards 50% is actually models that "Must be held in reserve" Such as daemons and Drop Pods. The attached units to a Drop Pod still count (if I remember right from the FAQ but can still drop with the pod, a little odd if i remember right but the squad still counted.) The old DWA rule said they can be held in reserve under the reserve rules, they have the extra wording of "May be held in reserve" which means they are not an "always must be reserved" like Pods and Daemons. I don't know how the new DWA rule is stated. If the new DWA says the DW "must be held in reserve" then it wouldn't count towards the 50% if it doesn't have that clarification it is counted for 50%.

 

However I see the arguement that because Codex rules supercedes BGB rules, BGB<BGB FAQ<Codex<Codex FAQ, You could still hold all DW in Reserve and DS.

 

I just went with the first way because it's easier for the whole store where I play, even though the whole Codex supercedes BGB thing.....

[IndigoJack]

The not counting towards 50% is actually models that "Must only come in by DS" Such as daemons and Drop Pods. The attached units to a Drop Pod still count (if I remember right from the FAQ but can still drop with the pod, a little odd if i remember right but the squad still counted.) The old DWA rule said they can be held in reserve under the reserve rules which means they are not an "always must Deep Strike" like Pods and Daemons. I don't know how the new DWA rule is stated. If the new DWA says the DW "must only DS" then it wouldn't count towards the 50% if it doesn't have that clarification it is counted for 50%.

 

The attached unit does not count. From the BGB FAQ, p7,

 

"Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in

reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in

Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or

Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)

A: No."

[Harleqvin]

The not counting towards 50% is actually models that "Must only come in by DS" Such as daemons and Drop Pods. The attached units to a Drop Pod still count (if I remember right from the FAQ but can still drop with the pod, a little odd if i remember right but the squad still counted.) The old DWA rule said they can be held in reserve under the reserve rules which means they are not an "always must Deep Strike" like Pods and Daemons. I don't know how the new DWA rule is stated. If the new DWA says the DW "must only DS" then it wouldn't count towards the 50% if it doesn't have that clarification it is counted for 50%.

 

The attached unit does not count. From the BGB FAQ, p7,

 

"Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in

reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in

Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or

Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)

A: No."

 

I couldn't remember if that how it was or not. That clarifies that small spot.

Still doesn't change the rest. The rest comes down to whether or not places do Codex supercedes BGB like how it's supposed to be or just go by BGB for the reserve thing like a lot of places do..... lqtm

 

Which really comes to how the new DWA rule is worded.

 

Also a note the old DWA rule said rules for Deep striking, iirc. It may have said rules for reserve but pretty sure it was DS it said. Making note of that as I know I said in previous "reserve rules" for old DWA. lqtm

[Onisuzume]

I think you are going to be alone in your argument, which comes off as a rules lawyer argument (not a complimentary thing), LionElJason. Also, what you and everyone else is failing to mention (or realize) is that Gate of Infinity and similar powers affects a unit *that is already in play*, not one in Reserves, so the comparison is not a comparison at all. A better comparison would be the Daemons rule...but that wouldn't support your point of view at all, so it would be best to ignore it. "My units are not in Reserve- they are in Deathwing Assault." I wouldn't recommend actually saying that to an opponent, because that is when metal models get put into a sock and people get beaten with it. Hmmm. Maybe that is the true reason for the switch to Finecast.

Don't be silly.

That's why we got hardcover rulebooks and codices for.

Not to mention Forgeworld books.

[IndigoJack]

I don't know why it's even a question. DW arriving via DWA do so from reserve. Otherwise, why would they mention that you don't need to roll for reserves?

[Harleqvin]

Deep Strike from the Big Green Book. Pg 36 "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." Since the DWA rules says that they "arrive via Deep Strike".

 

I just thought of this.

It says the 50% rule doesn't count for models/units that "must be in reserve," right?

and Big Green Book. Pg 36 "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." Wouldn't that then count for not having to abide by the 50%,?

[Cypher 102]

Do I have to deep strike with my Deathwing? No, I can start with them on the board thus they do not have to start in reserves like drop pods and daemons do.

[cielaq]

Look at it from the other side - unit is only excluded from 50% Reserve rule if it can't be deployed normally (like drop pod). Can DW unit be deployed normally? Yes.

Sure, you have to be in reserve to Deep strike, but deep striking itself is voluntary action.

Edit: That's what you get when you post while working - ninjaed by 8 minutes! :)

[CheezeFezt]

Deathwing Assault: "[unit with Deathwing Assault] can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn."

 

Initially, I thought the Deathwing Assault is just like any other reserve, but after re-reading it, I'm not so sure. Note that the Deathwing Assault is determined immediately after warlord traits with an implied before deployment. Note also no mention of "held in reserve" like last edition Codex: Dark Angels.

 

To me, it seems reasonable to interpret this as Deathwing Assault don't count toward the 50% reserve since they're not in reserve. Now, DW which don't make Deathwing Assault can be held in reserve and arrive as normal and will count toward reserve.

 

For me personally, I would treat Deathwing Assault as counting toward the 50%, but I do see the interpretation of not counting it. Hope this get FAQ.

[BigGumbo]

As I say I am still not sure about how this will end up but to say they have to go in reserve you have to add that to DWA yourself, the rule never mentions it.

I think you're on your own here. Any unit that is not placed on the table during deployment (i.e. before the beginning of Turn 1) is, by definition, in reserve - I think the BGB even states this explicitly. Therefore anyone who arrives by DWA does so from reserve. That you have to determine before the game begins which turn they'll do the DWA on doesn't somehow mean that they are not in reserve.

 

Oh, and the question of whether or not Deathwing terminators count towards the 50% reserves has been done to death: they don't have to be put in reserve, therefore they do count.