DA alpha strike

[Lion El Jason]

I think you're on your own here. Any unit that is not placed on the table during deployment (i.e. before the beginning of Turn 1) is, by definition, in reserve - I think the BGB even states this explicitly.

 

Thats the rule I am looking for, I can't find it. If it exists then DWA is reserves by definition. If not then Reserves are just one example of a way models can deploy later into the game.

[CheezeFezt]

I think you're on your own here. Any unit that is not placed on the table during deployment (i.e. before the beginning of Turn 1) is, by definition, in reserve - I think the BGB even states this explicitly.

 

The BGB does not explicitly state this.

pg 124 "Preparing Reserves. When deploying your armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

 

Deathwing Assault is determined before deploying armies.

 

Other difference is Deathwing Assault arrives on 1st turn, Reserve arrive starting Turn Two.

 

Therefore anyone who arrives by DWA does so from reserve.

 

You're mashing rules now. A Deathwing Assault is a special rule in Codex: Dark Angels. Therefore, anyone who arrives by Deathwing Assault does so from the Deathwing Assault.

 

Deathwing Assault said "tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn." This is sound like a rule onto itself, separate and not subordinate to the Reserve rule.

 

I personally think DWA should be subordinate to the Reserve rule, but there are no universal "anything no deployed are in reserve" rule.

[dswanick]

I personally think DWA should be subordinate to the Reserve rule, but there are no universal "anything no deployed are in reserve" rule.

But didn't you quote that earlier in your own post?

The BGB does not explicitly state this.

pg 124 "Preparing Reserves. When deploying your armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

You are being given two choices :

- Deploy a unit in your army

- or choose to place that unit in reserves

You are not given a third choice. So it is an exclusive "anything no deployed are in reserve" rule.

[CheezeFezt]

You are being given two choices :

- Deploy a unit in your army

- or choose to place that unit in reserves

You are not given a third choice. So it is an exclusive "anything no deployed are in reserve" rule.

 

You're given a third choice -- Deathwing Assault, granted by a new rule in Codex: Dark Angels.

 

And the Deathwing Assault does not say, place unit in Reserve (see last edition Codex: Dark Angels). It says, Deathwing Assault units are "deployed" on the 1st or 2nd turn, determined secretly by you, via Deep Strike. Deathwing Assault doesn't say, units arrive from Reserve automatically. It said "All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn."

[Lion El Jason]

Exactly, this is what the people arguing reserves don't seem to understand, they are arguing intent that DWA is "Supposed" to put the models in reserve. It does not say that and there is no rule that says "If you are not deployed then you are in reserve" (If there is please quote and I will concede, I just cannot find such a rule) hence Reserves is one example of a way troops can be deployed mid-game. DWA is another example of a similar rule but there is no overlap.

 

I should also say that I think will be ruled the other way, my only point here is that RAW it cannot be read other than DWA is not reserves.

[dswanick]

Exactly, this is what the people arguing reserves don't seem to understand, they are arguing intent that DWA is "Supposed" to put the models in reserve. It does not say that and there is no rule that says "If you are not deployed then you are in reserve" (If there is please quote and I will concede, I just cannot find such a rule)

Here you are. Now please quote the part of DWA that overrides this with some new third option.

pg 124 "Preparing Reserves. When deploying your armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

[Bryan Blaire]

It says "arrive via Deep Strike". Deep Strike tells you in the BGB that models must be in reserve to Deep Strike. The DWA rule refers directly back to a rule in the BGB, it does not override it, because it tells you how to use the Deep Strike rule.

 

Gate of Infinity specifically tells you how to take the action it allows in the middle of a game. It even tells you to remove them from the board, essentially putting them "back into Reserves" as they are out of play, then immediately redeploying via the Deep Strike rules.

 

There is nothing to FAQ because there is no confusion.

 

Here's the first logical question you must ask yourself about Deathwing Assault: "How do the units Deathwing Assault-ing get to the table? (ie, how do they arrive)"

[Polythemus]

But you arrive via deep strike or "deep strike reserve". Deep strike can only happen if you are in reserve furthermore, the deathwing assault rule states that there is no need to role for reserve, implying that you are starting in reserves. This is a rule that has "fluff" name but the rule is based in established game mechanics.

 

I am curious if a deathwing assault group in a dedicated transport gains deathwing assault.

[CheezeFezt]

Exactly, this is what the people arguing reserves don't seem to understand, they are arguing intent that DWA is "Supposed" to put the models in reserve. It does not say that and there is no rule that says "If you are not deployed then you are in reserve" (If there is please quote and I will concede, I just cannot find such a rule)

Here you are. Now please quote the part of DWA that overrides this with some new third option.

pg 124 "Preparing Reserves. When deploying your armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

 

Here's the quote that override it,

 

Codex: Dark Angels Deathwing Assault:

 

"Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armor can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlords Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves."

 

Option from BGB:

1) Deploy at the start of the game

2) hold up to 50% in reserve

New option from Codex: DA

3) deploy via DWA -- follow the DWA on how to deploy via DWA.

[Lion El Jason]

Exactly, this is what the people arguing reserves don't seem to understand, they are arguing intent that DWA is "Supposed" to put the models in reserve. It does not say that and there is no rule that says "If you are not deployed then you are in reserve" (If there is please quote and I will concede, I just cannot find such a rule)

Here you are. Now please quote the part of DWA that overrides this with some new third option.

pg 124 "Preparing Reserves. When deploying your armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

 

Again, you have not understood. No part of DWA ever states they go into reserve so why would it matter?

 

DWA says choose as many units with the rule, later you can choose up to 50% of whats left to be reserves. The two are in no way related.

 

 

The fact that they are deep striking does not imply reserves, thats the Gate of Infinity argument, they use the DS rules and do not use reserves.

Stating there is no need to roll for reserves does not imply they are in reserves.

[CheezeFezt]

But you arrive via deep strike or "deep strike reserve". Deep strike can only happen if you are in reserve furthermore, the deathwing assault rule states that there is no need to role for reserve, implying that you are starting in reserves. This is a rule that has "fluff" name but the rule is based in established game mechanics.

 

Even if the DWA are "in Reserve", one can still make the argument the DWA must start the game in reserve -- note I stating DWA, not terminator. You still have the issues of timing. Does DWA occurs in its own special subphase between Determine Warlord Traits and Deploy Forces or does it occurs during Deploy Forces. If in its own special subphase, then does this make the DWA units the "units that must start in reserve", thus exempting it from the 50% rule. If the later, then of course the 50% rule applied.

 

I am curious if a deathwing assault group in a dedicated transport gains deathwing assault.

 

Unit must be composed entirely of terminators. So DW with dedicated transport can't do Deathwing Assault.

[dswanick]

Here's the quote that override it,

 

Codex: Dark Angels Deathwing Assault:

 

"Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armor can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlords Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves."

 

Option from BGB:

1) Deploy at the start of the game

2) hold up to 50% in reserve

New option from Codex: DA

3) deploy via DWA -- follow the DWA on how to deploy via DWA.

Sorry, but that's some wishful thinking. I see where DWA modifies the Reserve rules from "during deployment...you may choose" to "Immediately after determining Warlords Traits, tell your opponent which units", and I see where DWA modifies the Reserve rules from "At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a d6..." to "and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn.", but it does not create some magical new "lock box" called Death Wing Assault. The rule even tells you "All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves.". Deep Strike uses Reserves unless some other rule modifies this (which DWA does not), and DWA even references Reserve rolls (further proving that it is a modification of existing Reserve rules).

[Lion El Jason]

Sorry, but that's some wishful thinking. I see where DWA modifies the Reserve rules from "during deployment...you may choose" to "Immediately after determining Warlords Traits, tell your opponent which units", and I see where DWA modifies the Reserve rules from "At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a d6..." to "and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn.", but it does not create some magical new "lock box" called Death Wing Assault. The rule even tells you "All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves.". Deep Strike uses Reserves unless some other rule modifies this (which DWA does not), and DWA even references Reserve rolls (further proving that it is a modification of existing Reserve rules).

 

 

Claiming it is reserves at all is arguing intent, we cant know intent. It does not say they are in reserves so why would they be?

[dswanick]

Sorry, but that's some wishful thinking. I see where DWA modifies the Reserve rules from "during deployment...you may choose" to "Immediately after determining Warlords Traits, tell your opponent which units", and I see where DWA modifies the Reserve rules from "At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a d6..." to "and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn.", but it does not create some magical new "lock box" called Death Wing Assault. The rule even tells you "All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves.". Deep Strike uses Reserves unless some other rule modifies this (which DWA does not), and DWA even references Reserve rolls (further proving that it is a modification of existing Reserve rules).

 

 

Claiming it is reserves at all is arguing intent, we cant know intent. It does not say they are in reserves so why would they be?

Because unless you have some rule which says otherwise( which you don't), your only choices are Deployed or In Reserves. That DWA modifies the point at which you are reserving the units, and it modifies when the units will become available from Reserves, but it does not alter anything else including that the models are in Reserves.

[Bryan Blaire]

I love the circular logic going on here:

You are using Deathwing Assault, so therefore to resolve how to arrive, you consult Deathwing Assault.

Here's the first logical question you must ask yourself about Deathwing Assault: "How do the units Deathwing Assault-ing get to the table? (ie, how do they arrive)"

The answer to this question is in the rules for Deathwing Assault.

 

New option from Codex: DA

3) deploy via DWA -- follow the DWA on how to deploy via DWA.

And what does the DWA rule say for how you deploy via DWA? There is an answer even though the above question was actual circular and doesn't give an answer. It's the same answer as the one to my above question (as it is, in fact, the same question).

 

The fact that they are deep striking does not imply reserves, thats the Gate of Infinity argument, they use the DS rules and do not use reserves.

Not only does it imply it, the rule for Deep Strike REQUIRES it per the rule as written, as I have already typed out explicitly from the rule book and given the page reference for people to read themselves. I think people might be missing what that is saying.

 

Gate of Infinity requires the removal of the unit from the table. Therefore the unit is not deployed and therefore following the deployment rules from the BGB, if a unit is not deployed on the table, it is in reserves, albeit in the case of Gate of Infinity, this is immediately resolved by Deep Striking the unit back onto the table. There is no argument or confusion to be had here. The rule for Gate of Infinity tells you exactly how to resolve this return from off the table back onto the table, the same as DWA does.

 

Even if the DWA are "in Reserve", one can still make the argument the DWA must start the game in reserve.

That's actually the only argument you can make. The BGB may resolve this for us as well, but I don't have it with me to look up what restrictions are on the exemption for the 50% Held in Reserves rule. However, since the use of DWA is optional, not a requirement, then it likely still doesn't exempt anything using DWA from the restriction.

 

Just in case we need another refresher on exactly what the Deep Strike rule says:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve."

It is not an intent argument to read the rules as they are written.

[Lion El Jason]

I love the circular logic going on here:

 

It may amuse you but please stop using it.

 

Therefore the unit is not deployed and therefore following the deployment rules from the BGB, if a unit is not deployed on the table, it is in reserves, albeit in the case of Gate of Infinity, this is immediately resolved by Deep Striking the unit back onto the table.

 

Show me this rule.

[CheezeFezt]

Here's the quote that override it,

 

Codex: Dark Angels Deathwing Assault:

 

"Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armor can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlords Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves."

 

Option from BGB:

1) Deploy at the start of the game

2) hold up to 50% in reserve

New option from Codex: DA

3) deploy via DWA -- follow the DWA on how to deploy via DWA.

Sorry, but that's some wishful thinking. I see where DWA modifies the Reserve rules from "during deployment...you may choose" to "Immediately after determining Warlords Traits, tell your opponent which units",

 

Huh??? DWA is now a Reserve rule?

 

Follow the rule -- Fighting a Battle. Determine all the mission etc, then go to Warlord Traits. Now insert DWA. After that, continue on with Deploy Forces.

 

Outstanding questions are

1) do units in DWA considered to be in reserve, thus count toward the 50%. The DWA sure doesn't say hold units in reserve. The Deploy Forces is where on deploy forces, thus is when one can invoke the reserve rule to hold unit in reserve. DWA rule sound like it occurs before the reserve rule get invoked.

2) when is reserve exemption determined. The exemption said "Unit that must start the game in reserve are ignored." Are the DWA unit considered to must start the game in serve, thus exempt? When is this start game determined? BGB doesn't say. Is it at the Warlord Traits, is it at the Deploy Forces?

 

 

and I see where DWA modifies the Reserve rules from "At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a d6..." to "and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn.", but it does not create some magical new "lock box" called Death Wing Assault.

 

What exactly does a rule called Deathwing Assault does but make a rule called Deathwing Assault -- a magic new lock box of a rule?

 

The rule even tells you "All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves.". Deep Strike uses Reserves unless some other rule modifies this (which DWA does not), and DWA even references Reserve rolls (further proving that it is a modification of existing Reserve rules).

 

Just because there are similarity doesn't means one rule is subordinate to the other.

 

There is a psychic power that remove a unit from the table and allows it to arrives via Deep Strike. By your logic that all units arriving via Deep Strike are in "reserve", then this unit will count toward the 50% rule? Nobody I played with ever played it that way.

[Bryan Blaire]

It may amuse you but please stop using it.

It is your argument that is circular, so I will continue to respond with the logical reading of the rules that tells you want to do.

 

Show me this rule.

dswanick already has. Read his post on Deploying Armies above. The rule is in the BRB. There may even be a rule on Redeployments. ;)

 

Show me the rule that says how DWA arrives.

Show me the rule that says where units must be to Deep Strike.

[Lion El Jason]

dswanick already has. Read his post on Deploying Armies above. The rule is in the BRB. There may even be a rule on Redeployments.

Nobody has. There is no rule that states "Any unit not deployed is in reserves".

I can see you don't understand the issue. Find this rule or you are arguing intent.

[CheezeFezt]

Just in case we need another refresher on exactly what the Deep Strike rule says:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve."

It is not an intent argument to read the rules as they are written.

 

Guess the Grey Knights librarian power doesn't work since it remove a unit from play and said unit then arrive via Deep Strike. Since that unit didn't start the game in reserve, the librarian power won't work.

 

Anyhoo, there is a rule called "Arriving by Deep Strike". RWA is simply referencing this rule. "Arrive via Deep Strike" is a fancier way of saying "Arrive by Deep Strike".

[Bryan Blaire]

Nobody has. There is no rule that states "Any unit not deployed is in reserves".

 

I can see you don't understand the issue. Find this rule or you are arguing intent.

LOL

 

WOW.

 

Now you are reaching.

 

You asked me to show you mine, I showed you mine. dswanick's rule as stated shows that you have two options in deployment: deployed or held in reserves.

 

You, however, don't even respond to my entire argument, which starts the logical walk down the DWA path, and show me the things I asked for, as I reasonably did for you, and you feel you can be dismissive? That's some rank arrogant action right there, bud. There's a whole list of things to respond to, not just one sentence.

 

Okay, so, can everyone else reasonable see the logical path through the rules? (BTW, yes, I'm fully aware this could count as a personal attack, Mods adjust my post as need be)

[Avon Rekaes]

The fact that they are deep striking does not imply reserves, thats the Gate of Infinity argument, they use the DS rules and do not use reserves.

Not only does it imply it, the rule for Deep Strike REQUIRES it per the rule as written, as I have already typed out explicitly from the rule book and given the page reference for people to read themselves. I think people might be missing what that is saying.

 

Gate of Infinity requires the removal of the unit from the table. Therefore the unit is not deployed and therefore following the deployment rules from the BGB, if a unit is not deployed on the table, it is in reserves, albeit in the case of Gate of Infinity, this is immediately resolved by Deep Striking the unit back onto the table. There is no argument or confusion to be had here. The rule for Gate of Infinity tells you exactly how to resolve this return from off the table back onto the table, the same as DWA does.

 

Been reading this thread an reserving judgement, but I have seen you bring up your counter-arguement to Gates of Infinity several times and saying that Gates of Infinity places a unit back in Reserves. Does the rule explicitly state this? I haven't seen it, so I don't know.

 

Basically, I've seen no direct RAW quoting that "if you're not on the table, you're in Reserves". Just a lot of interpretation of such. I understand that if it concerns normal by-the-BGB, you either deploy via normal deployment or Reserves, but this doesn't then automatically apply to a model or unit's "game state" going forward forever. If Gates of Infinity does not explicitly state that the unit temporarily returns to Reserves (such as a flier flying off the board does), then your counter-arguement for Gates of Infinity does not work. In such a case, the Gated unit does not explicitly, by RAW, return to Reserves, and arrives via Deep Strike desite not being in reserves. Therefore, Deep Strike can be used by new special rules to deploy things not in Reserves, merely referencing the rules for how it physically arrives on the tabletop (scatter, mishaps, etc) but not from where.

 

Either that, or, Gates of Infinity does explicitly say "The unit is removed from th tabletop and temporarily placed back in Reserves", and then indeed there is no precedent for Deep Strike being used by special rules for alternate deployments.

[Lion El Jason]

 

Been reading this thread an reserving judgement, but I have seen you bring up your counter-arguement to Gates of Infinity several times and saying that Gates of Infinity places a unit back in Reserves. Does the rule explicitly state this? I haven't seen it, so I don't know.

 

Basically, I've seen no direct RAW quoting that "if you're not on the table, you're in Reserves". Just a lot of interpretation of such. I understand that if it concerns normal by-the-BGB, you either deploy via normal deployment or Reserves, but this doesn't then automatically apply to a model or unit's "game state" going forward forever. If Gates of Infinity does not explicitly state that the unit temporarily returns to Reserves (such as a flier flying off the board does), then your counter-arguement for Gates of Infinity does not work. In such a case, the Gated unit does not explicitly, by RAW, return to Reserves, and arrives via Deep Strike desite not being in reserves. Therefore, Deep Strike can be used by new special rules to deploy things not in Reserves, merely referencing the rules for how it physically arrives on the tabletop (scatter, mishaps, etc) but not from where.

 

Either that, or, Gates of Infinity does explicitly say "The unit is removed from th tabletop and temporarily placed back in Reserves", and then indeed there is no precedent for Deep Strike being used by special rules for alternate deployments.

 

 

I agree with your assessment, the power in the rulebook never mentions reserves at all.

[Avon Rekaes]

Please note I haven't made an assement yet. I've shared two intepretations, hinging on the actual wording of Gate of Infinity.

[IndigoJack]

Why would the DWA rule not mention a need to roll for reserves if they weren't in reserves? Answer: because they're in reserves and deep striking. The ONLY exception is that they are allowed to arrive without a roll on turn 1 or 2.