DA alpha strike

[Lion El Jason]

Nobody has. There is no rule that states "Any unit not deployed is in reserves".

 

I can see you don't understand the issue. Find this rule or you are arguing intent.

LOL

 

WOW.

 

Now you are reaching.

 

You asked me to show you mine, I showed you mine. dswanick's rule as stated shows that you have two options in deployment: deployed or held in reserves.

 

You will never learn if you don't listen.

 

Show me the rule that says that anything not on the table is automatically in reserves. Thats not the same as the options given (Clearly DWA is a new option).

 

At this point I can't believe you are this obtuse so I assume you are trolling this thread. Please leave it to those of us who are discussing it rationally, again I would suggest you step back from the keyboard, take a breath and calm down before you return. This obviously has upset you but its just a discussion and everyone else here is debating, not arguing.

 

Please note I haven't made an assement yet. I've shared two intepretations, hinging on the actual wording of Gate of Infinity.

 

I meant your assessment of the situation, not the issue ;)

I await your conclusion :)

[Avon Rekaes]

Why would the DWA rule not mention a need to roll for reserves if they weren't in reserves? Answer: because they're in reserves and deep striking. The ONLY exception is that they are allowed to arrive without a roll on turn 1 or 2.

 

Or they don't need to roll for reserves because they implicitly aren't in reserve. That argument never swayed me, it can go either way.

[CheezeFezt]

The fact that they are deep striking does not imply reserves, thats the Gate of Infinity argument, they use the DS rules and do not use reserves.

Not only does it imply it, the rule for Deep Strike REQUIRES it per the rule as written, as I have already typed out explicitly from the rule book and given the page reference for people to read themselves. I think people might be missing what that is saying.

 

Gate of Infinity requires the removal of the unit from the table. Therefore the unit is not deployed and therefore following the deployment rules from the BGB, if a unit is not deployed on the table, it is in reserves, albeit in the case of Gate of Infinity, this is immediately resolved by Deep Striking the unit back onto the table. There is no argument or confusion to be had here. The rule for Gate of Infinity tells you exactly how to resolve this return from off the table back onto the table, the same as DWA does.

 

Been reading this thread an reserving judgement, but I have seen you bring up your counter-arguement to Gates of Infinity several times and saying that Gates of Infinity places a unit back in Reserves. Does the rule explicitly state this? I haven't seen it, so I don't know.

 

Basically, I've seen no direct RAW quoting that "if you're not on the table, you're in Reserves". Just a lot of interpretation of such. I understand that if it concerns normal by-the-BGB, you either deploy via normal deployment or Reserves, but this doesn't then automatically apply to a model or unit's "game state" going forward forever. If Gates of Infinity does not explicitly state that the unit temporarily returns to Reserves (such as a flier flying off the board does), then your counter-arguement for Gates of Infinity does not work. In such a case, the Gated unit does not explicitly, by RAW, return to Reserves, and arrives via Deep Strike desite not being in reserves. Therefore, Deep Strike can be used by new special rules to deploy things not in Reserves, merely referencing the rules for how it physically arrives on the tabletop (scatter, mishaps, etc) but not from where.

 

Either that, or, Gates of Infinity does explicitly say "The unit is removed from th tabletop and temporarily placed back in Reserves", and then indeed there is no precedent for Deep Strike being used by special rules for alternate deployments.

 

The Gates of Infinity: "Remove target unit from the board. It then immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike."

 

Rules for Deep Strikes requires

1) unit must have the Deep Strike rule

2) unit start game in reserve

3) unit must make a reserve roll

 

Obviously, if the Gates of Infinity follows the full rules of Deep Strike, it will never work. The way it's played is the deployment rules of Deep Strike -- place one model, scatter, then ring em. No difference for DWA "arrive via Deep Strike".

[Lion El Jason]

Again the mention of "No need to roll for reserves" is evidence of intent but is not a rules argument. I agree with you it points to that conclusion but that is an intent argument.

[Avon Rekaes]

Okay, here's the deal. By my reading, you determin which units are going to be deployed via Deathwing Assault before you determine who is deploying first. You roll off for that, normally, after deciding Warlord traits. But DWA is a new step for DA players that takes place between those.

 

This is a tactically interesting wrinkle. Without knowing who has the first turn (or, who has a 5 in 6 chance of having it, at any rate) you need to make the decision to DWA a unit or not.

 

This is very clearly, definately, a new choice to make, not your normal Reserves decisions. Here are the steps.

 

Roll for Warlord Traits.

Decide on DWA

Roll for who gets to deploy first

Deploy forces your turn, deciding which units to place in Reserves.

 

DWA does happen before normal Reserves choices. It feels like a "new lock box" to me.

[Bryan Blaire]

Guess the Grey Knights librarian power doesn't work since it remove a unit from play and said unit then arrive via Deep Strike. Since that unit didn't start the game in reserve, the librarian power won't work.

 

Anyhoo, there is a rule called "Arriving by Deep Strike". RWA is simply referencing this rule. "Arrive via Deep Strike" is a fancier way of saying "Arrive by Deep Strike".

The unit is removed from the table. They then redeploy. If it isn't going into Reserves and it isn't being destroyed or unusable as units going off the table would normally, then where is it going? Are there rules for "Off the Table"?

 

Now, I know the rule for Deep Strike is on page 36. Where is the rule for "Arriving via Deep Strike"? Or is it simply a component of the Deep Strike rule?

[Avon Rekaes]

Again the mention of "No need to roll for reserves" is evidence of intent but is not a rules argument. I agree with you it points to that conclusion but that is an intent argument.

 

It's intent either way, is what I mean. It could mean one thing or the other, and by RAW means nothing. (Or rather, is irrelevat to this arguement)

[Avon Rekaes]

Guess the Grey Knights librarian power doesn't work since it remove a unit from play and said unit then arrive via Deep Strike. Since that unit didn't start the game in reserve, the librarian power won't work.

 

Anyhoo, there is a rule called "Arriving by Deep Strike". RWA is simply referencing this rule. "Arrive via Deep Strike" is a fancier way of saying "Arrive by Deep Strike".

The unit is removed from the table. They then redeploy. If it isn't going into Reserves and it isn't being destroyed or unusable as units going off the table would normally, then where is it going? Are there rules for "Off the Table"?

 

Now, I know the rule for Deep Strike is on page 36. Where is the rule for "Arriving via Deep Strike"? Or is it simply a component of the Deep Strike rule?

 

It's "going" where you're placing it, more or less instantaneously. There's no need to insert the step that it's going into the "Reserves" "lockbox". It's just being removed from the table, physically, and put back on using the placement/deployment rules for Deep Strike. Special rules supercede basic ones. Gate of Infinity is telling you to place it back on the table via the Deep Strike rules, despite the model not being in Reserves. And it can do this because, special rules supercede basic ones.

 

"Reserves", by my reading, is only explicitly a deployment option, and only referenced after deployment by things explicitly going back into Reserves, (fliers flying off the board edge, Deep Strike mishaps, etc.). Reserves, in my interpretation, is not a catch-all for any non-destroyed model not on the table. At least, it isn't stated as such in the BGB.

[Bryan Blaire]

I agree that it isn't a normal Reserves choice, but that doesn't automatically preclude it from being a Reserves choice. Units being removed from the table in game are clearly following some different, explicit rules than those decided upon prior to deployment. If Gate of Infinity is being used to illustrate rules when it is used in a different fashion (redeployment, rather than initial deployment), then it qualifies as an "intent" argument just as much as the concept of not rolling for reserves showing "intent" that it is a Reserves deployment rule.

 

Some of this might be solved if someone could quote the 50% restriction, since if they are Deep Striking (or arriving via Deep Strike), and Deep Striking requires Reserves, does any part of the rule negate this?

[Cactus]

As soon as I read the rule I knew it wouldn't be long before the multi-page debate started. My opinion is that Mr Vetock intended units making a Deathwing Assault to be held in reserve but failed to make that explicit, probably because he thought it was obvious. If you want a more rules-based argument I say that Deathwing Assault is not incompatible with the main reserves rules and that when in doubt it's better to take the path of least resistance.* It is possible to have your Deathwing in reserve, preparing to make a Deathwing Assault on the specified turn, without contradicting the processes outlined in both the Deathwing Assault and reserves rules. To do otherwise takes some tortuous reasoning** which suggests to me that it's not what was intended.

 

On the question of whether Deathwing are counted towards the 50% limit, I don't feel that the 50% rule is time-limited. If the unit as presented in the codex has the option to deploy normally it is never a unit that must start in reserve. There is a class of units that "must start the game in reserve" (lictors, drop pods, etc) and Deathwing terminator squads are not in that class.

 

*I'm a terrible terrible Dark Angel and will report for mind-scrubbing and servitor-transplant forthwith.

**Does "tortuous reasoning" earn me redemption? It sounds very Dark Angel.

[FerociousBeast]

Codex trumps rulebook. This is 40K 101, people.

 

If the codex says to use the Deep Strike part without Reserves, then that's what you do. So the question is, is that what the codex is saying?

 

It seems obvious to me that a unit that is going to deploy by DWA is in reserves, but the wording in the codex IS ambiguous, so this is a question that needs FAQ'ing. When it's FAQ'ed, I can see it going either way. 50/50.

[CheezeFezt]

I agree that it isn't a normal Reserves choice, but that doesn't automatically preclude it from being a Reserves choice. Units being removed from the table in game are clearly following some different, explicit rules than those decided upon prior to deployment. If Gate of Infinity is being used to illustrate rules when it is used in a different fashion (redeployment, rather than initial deployment), then it qualifies as an "intent" argument just as much as the concept of not rolling for reserves showing "intent" that it is a Reserves deployment rule.

 

Apply the same logic of the Gate of Infinitiy to the Deathwing Assault -- DWA arrive using the Deep Strike rule (place model, scatter, ring 'em) ala Gate of Infinity. DWA is distinctly different than "Deep Strike". One "Deep Strike" following the Deep Strike rule (unit must have "Deep Strike", start in reserve, pass reserve roll) then arrive via Deep Strike (place one model, scatter, ring em). DWA follows the DWA rule (declare to your opponent which units are DWA, make a secret note of 1st or 2nd turn arrival) then arrive via Deep Strike (place one model, scatter, ring em).

 

Some of this might be solved if someone could quote the 50% restriction, since if they are Deep Striking (or arriving via Deep Strike), and Deep Striking requires Reserves, does any part of the rule negate this?

 

Small Rulebook pg 124: "Preparing reserves: When deploying their armies,players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so."

 

Under Deep Strike, pg 36 "Some units that must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (aong with any models embarked upon them) are ignored. In addition, a unit that must arrive by Deep Strike (such as a Drop Pod) must do so even if you are playing a special mission where the Reserves special rule is not being used."

 

So question is does DWA occurs before "Deploy Force" which is when "Preparing reserves" kick in along with the 50% rule. "Deploy Force" is right after "Determine Warlord Traits". DWA is stated as occurring immediately after "Determine Warlord Traits". That's significant because, as one above mentioned, DWA is determined before players roll off to see who goes first. Only after the roll off does one then "deploys his entire army".

 

Second question, is DWA considered a special rule or is it subordinate to Deep Strike. If subordinate, then it can't be used until the mission doesn't has the "Reserve" special rule. If DWA can always be used, then it's no different than a Drop Pod and are ignored from the 50% rule.

[CheezeFezt]

I don't feel that the 50% rule is time-limited.

 

The 50% rule only kick in when deploying army. see my quote of the reserve rule above.

 

Flow of game:

1) Determine who is your warlord

2) Determine mission

3) Determine deployment map

5) Place any fortification

6) Place terrains

7) Place objective

8) Determine warlord trains

8') Declare Deathwing Assault

9) Generate Psychic power

10) roll-off for who goes first/deploy first

11) deploy force

11a) "Players deploying first then deploys their entire force within their deployment zone, excluding units using their infiltrate special rule and any units being kept as Reserve."

11b) Infiltrate

11c) Scout

12) Seize the Initiative

 

The DWA unit occurred way before deployment, before deciding which units are to be keep in reserves. Infiltrate is determine at 11a as are reserve. Since DWA unit are already excluded from the army at this point, they don't count toward the 50% limit.

[CheezeFezt]

Codex trumps rulebook. This is 40K 101, people.

 

If the codex says to use the Deep Strike part without Reserves, then that's what you do. So the question is, is that what the codex is saying?

 

It seems obvious to me that a unit that is going to deploy by DWA is in reserves, but the wording in the codex IS ambiguous, so this is a question that needs FAQ'ing. When it's FAQ'ed, I can see it going either way. 50/50.

 

Wording isn't ambiguous as all. Just that question of whether the some other rules are "over arching universal" rules.

 

Deathwing Assault: "Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armor can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determine Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves."

 

Pretty clear cut. Peeps are making this out as a fancy "Deep Strike", thus all Deep Strike rules apply -- eg must be in reserve, mission must have Reserve, etc. Just read and follow the DWA as stated. Nothing is ambigous about it.

 

DWA can be used even if mission doesn't say Reserve. Follow the DWA rule. Deep Strike can only be used if mission has Reserve. If mission doesn't have reserve, then one can't Deep Strike. DWA has no such limitation. DWA does not say put unit in Reserve.

 

DWA arrive before other reserve -- it arrive "at the start of the chosen turn". Question, do DWA arrive before rolling for reserve, which is also at the start of the turn or after rolling. The last part of DWA indicate it arrives before -- "there is no need to roll for reserves."

 

"Arrive via Deep Strike" is simply their shorthand way of saying place a model, scatter, ring em.

 

The "there is no need to roll for reserves" means they arrive before rolling for reserves and the rest of the reserves coming on.

[Avon Rekaes]

This is more or less my reasoning.

 

Though I do admit this is an interpretation, and this is in desperate need of FAQing.

[dswanick]

Codex trumps rulebook. This is 40K 101, people.

 

If the codex says to use the Deep Strike part without Reserves, then that's what you do. So the question is, is that what the codex is saying?

 

It seems obvious to me that a unit that is going to deploy by DWA is in reserves, but the wording in the codex IS ambiguous, so this is a question that needs FAQ'ing. When it's FAQ'ed, I can see it going either way. 50/50.

So follow this logic to its conclusion -

- If DWA is not Reserve because it doesn't specifically say it is and allows the unit to deploy via Deep Strike without being in Reserve, even though it doesn't specifically override those requirements

- then DWA allows deployment via Deep Strike without scatter because, while DWA doesn't specifically override the need to roll scatter, it doesn't state you must scatter the unit.

[Bryan Blaire]

The 50% rule only kick in when deploying army. see my quote of the reserve rule above.

 

Flow of game:

1) Determine who is your warlord

2) Determine mission

3) Determine deployment map

5) Place any fortification

6) Place terrains

7) Place objective

8) Determine warlord trains

8') Declare Deathwing Assault

9) Generate Psychic power

10) roll-off for who goes first/deploy first

11) deploy force

11a) "Players deploying first then deploys their entire force within their deployment zone, excluding units using their infiltrate special rule and any units being kept as Reserve."

11b) Infiltrate

11c) Scout

12) Seize the Initiative

 

The DWA unit occurred way before deployment, before deciding which units are to be keep in reserves. Infiltrate is determine at 11a as are reserve. Since DWA unit are already excluded from the army at this point, they don't count toward the 50% limit.

 

Sorry, the "DWA units are excluded from the army" part just isn't true, because if it is, then you can't use them at all for the game, they are excluded from the army. They are either part of the army or not. If they are part of your army, then 11a would still apply to your army (which is where it states that the only things you don't deploy are Infiltrate users and Reserves). My guess is that the actual rules wording is a little different, but as I only have the wording of my fellow DA players and not my actual Rulebook ATM, I have to go off what is written.

 

"Pocket-space" interpretations, vis-a-vis application of Gate of Infinity - rules for a completely different special rule, need not apply here, as has been pointed out, they fall into "interpreted" rulings - no ruling on Gate of Infinity is explicitly stated to be applicable to DWA. Also, there is no explicit statement that they (DWA'ing Terminators) do go into a "Pocket Space" prior to deployment or arrival on the table, so as there is no explicit rule, then it obviously doesn't exist and is therefore interpretive (I believe that I finally understand how that argument works - it applies both ways).

 

The rule doesn't explicitly state that they are or are not in Reserves. Reading it as "since it doesn't say it, it means X" is RAI, not RAW. It does mention using the Deep Strike rules for arrival, but not having to roll for reserves, so I personally would feel like a WAAC player if I didn't follow all the rules for Deep Strike as explicity modified by DWA.

[Avon Rekaes]

I'm curious what WAAC means and if it can be repeated in polite company...

 

Anyway, yes, I'm aware that this is all interpretive. Some others who I might otherwise agree with might say it's RAW, but clearly it's contentious enough to not be a clear case as "these are the rules as written". I believe Vetock has a history of ambiguosly worded rules. So who can say, for certain, until we get that FAQ.

[elphilo]

WAAC = Win at any cost.

 

And it seems that this topic has reach its head. Until an FAQ has happened maybe we should all agree to disagree? :)

[Grandmaster damion]

So been reading this both here and on Warseer and have been reading both the codex and BGB! and I come to the following conclusions.

 

1. What an absolute hodge podge mess of a rule referencing parts of other existing rules.

 

2. The Timing makes this a vary unusal case of a unit being non selectable for deployment or reserves.

 

3. I have no idea how this is supposed to interact with the 50% rule.

 

4. This badly needs an FAQ and it could go either way.

 

knowing the above I will be using this advise "when presented with Multiple interpritations of a rule interaction use the least powerful interpritation" as a sort of rules occam's razor leads to less raised voices and hurt fealings

Cheers

 

GMD

[CheezeFezt]

"Pocket-space" interpretations, vis-a-vis application of Gate of Infinity - rules for a completely different special rule, need not apply here, as has been pointed out, they fall into "interpreted" rulings - no ruling on Gate of Infinity is explicitly stated to be applicable to DWA. Also, there is no explicit statement that they (DWA'ing Terminators) do go into a "Pocket Space" prior to deployment or arrival on the table, so as there is no explicit rule, then it obviously doesn't exist and is therefore interpretive (I believe that I finally understand how that argument works - it applies both ways).

 

You totally lost me. What's "pocket-space" interpretation? What's "interpreted" ruling? GoI said unit arrive using the rules of Deep Strike. DWA said arrive via Deep Strike. What's the difference?

 

The rule doesn't explicitly state that they are or are not in Reserves. Reading it as "since it doesn't say it, it means X" is RAI, not RAW.

 

It doesn't say "in Reserve" means it doesn't say Reserve. Where the Rules As Interpreted?

 

You follow the rule unless there are some other overarching rule. As stated many times before, there are no such rule "If it's not deployed, it's in Reserve."

 

DWA stated simply declare, then arrive. No mention of Reserve.

 

Reserve rule stated if the mission use "Reserve", when you are deploying, you may keep up to half in Reserve.

 

How does one account for DWA when deploying? Not answered anywhere.

 

It does mention using the Deep Strike rules for arrival, but not having to roll for reserves, so I personally would feel like a WAAC player if I didn't follow all the rules for Deep Strike as explicity modified by DWA.

 

Arrive via Deep Strike simply means place a model, scatter, ring em, just like any other rules out there; see Gate of Infinity, Grey Knight pyshic power, etc. It does not means DWA is Deep Strike.

[Gul Tekar]

Claiming it is reserves at all is arguing intent, we cant know intent. It does not say they are in reserves so why would they be?

 

Wow, this sounds like my theology class, but more intense.

 

Also similar to my theology class is the fact that basically all present have pretty much made up their minds and the whole discussion seems pretty pointless. On that note, I don't think anyone is going to convince anyone else out of their chosen position, and perhaps we should wait for the FAQ.

[CheezeFezt]

WAAC = Win at any cost.

And it seems that this topic has reach its head. Until an FAQ has happened maybe we should all agree to disagree?

I'm in the camp that DWA count in the 50% reserve. But I also hate peep dropping "RAW" when there are no such written rules. When there are differences, I try to walk in the other person shoes. When walking in the other shoes, I see that it's very reasonable for it being exempt. Having to declare DWA before knowing psychic power, before knowing who goes first and how they're deployed is a counteracting balance.

With the reserve Deep Strike, one can wait until the opponent deploy before deciding if one should Deep Strike the Deathwing. No such advantage with DWA. With reserve Deep Strike, one can use warlord trait to delay the Deep Strike. With DWA, it come when it come.

I don't see it overpowering and I don't see it winning at all cost. I would play it as 50% limit, but I do see it's reasonable to ignore it for the 50% limit.

[elphilo]

I don't see it overpowering and I don't see it winning at all cost. I would play it as 50% limit, but I do see it's reasonable to ignore it for the 50% limit.

 

Apologies, I was replying to Avon Rekaes with the WAAC. I probably should of quoted that so no one thought I was saying they were trying to WAAC with regards to this rule.

[MrSocks]

Just wanted to point out: Pg36 40k Rulebook

"Some units must arrive via deep strike. They ALWAYS begin the game in reserve"

 

ie if you claim they MUST deep strike, than your argument about them not being reserves in the first place because they are held in the magical land of DWA is invalid, so please stick to one argument or the other, otherwise they contradict themselves.

 

Rules for Arriving via Deep Striking:

"Arriving via Deep Strike

Roll for the arrival of deep striking units as specified by the roll for reserves"

 

since the only modification is "there is no need roll for reserves"

 

inferring that the unit is still arriving from reserve via deep strike even though you don't roll for it.

 

I would like to say

 

HOWEVER I think the point about death wing assault occuring before deployment is quite valid.

 

I do believe there is a strong possibility that RAI is that you would be able to deploy your entire deathwing army via deep strike and therefore circumvent the 50% reserves rule. Personally I think this would be rather awesome and would make quite a lot of sense.

 

I don't play Dark Angels (so this argument actually has no impact on me to be honest, but I'd like to think that deathwing would be able to deploy en-mass via deep strike without worrying about leaving 50% on the table (as far as I'm aware they used to do that in the old edition with the old codex? or at least I have fought people who have done that)