DA alpha strike

[BigGumbo]

The 50% question is easily answered: Deathwing terminators are not required to start the game in reserve, therefore they do count when calculating how many units comprise the 50% that can be placed in reserve.

 

Page 124 of the BGB is also quite explicit that "players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units, keeping them as reserves". If you are declaring that certain units will Deathwing Assault, you are not deploying those units. Therefore they are kept as reserves. That's logic for you...

[Avon Rekaes]

The 50% question is easily answered: Deathwing terminators are not required to start the game in reserve, therefore they do count when calculating how many units comprise the 50% that can be placed in reserve.

 

Page 124 of the BGB is also quite explicit that "players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units, keeping them as reserves". If you are declaring that certain units will Deathwing Assault, you are not deploying those units. Therefore they are kept as reserves. That's logic for you...

 

Not so simple. The issue here is whether or not DWA counts as Reserves at all, not whether they are excempt from the 50% limitaion. As to your second point "players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units, keeping them as reserves", this decision takes place two or three steps AFTER you make your decision for DWA, so those in the "Doesn't count as reserves" camp are interpreting this to mean that the DWA choice is separate from your Reserves choice, and therefore doesn't affect and is not effected by the limitation on Reserves.

[Pbenner]

Would be awesome if we could seriously make a massive Alpha strike. Sadly, still no codex for me.

 

I like what I am hearing, but I could just about skewer my FLGS owner for not telling me that my pre-order wouldn't be in on time.

 

I am going to side with DWA being outside of normal reserves. Its a special rule and deserves to be there. I honestly think that if I wanted to 100% reserve for a turn 1 or 2 assault I should be able to. Seems like the flavor to me.

[Avon Rekaes]

Er, well, to be clear, that wouldn't work.

 

While I am in the "doesn't count toward 50%" rule, I do think the "Auto-Lose if nothing is on the table" is still in effect. I think we can all agree that "on the table" means "on the table" and not "everything is either destroyed or in Reserves".

 

So if you DWA 100% of your force, your first turn happens and you automatically lose before they can deep strike.

[Pbenner]

Sorry,

 

I understand this, was thinking about Deathwing elements only. I usually have vehicles or other things out on the table.

 

Paul

[cielaq]

Well, for me (and I might be wrong of course) the fact that DWA rule has "there is no need to roll for reserves." part indicates that they are in reserve. Why? Because they tell us to ignore part of the Reserve rule. First, this part would not be needed if the rule was not applicable in our case (why to tell us to ignore part of the rule when we are ignoring the whole rule?), and second - they only tell us clearly to ignore only one part of the rule, not the whole rule.

[MrSocks]

Er, well, to be clear, that wouldn't work.

 

While I am in the "doesn't count toward 50%" rule, I do think the "Auto-Lose if nothing is on the table" is still in effect. I think we can all agree that "on the table" means "on the table" and not "everything is either destroyed or in Reserves".

 

So if you DWA 100% of your force, your first turn happens and you automatically lose before they can deep strike.

 

This is true, what a shame =(. Deep striking armies should be viable =D

[BigGumbo]

@Avon

 

Sorry but you've lost me. Are you claiming that Deathwing Assault is in some way involuntary? If not, then you have still CHOSEN not to deploy the units that are going to DWA, therefore they are still in reserves. The fact that you've now got a two stage process for determining which units are in reserve doesn't change the fact that none of them are deployed, so all of them are in reserve.

[CheezeFezt]

Er, well, to be clear, that wouldn't work.

 

While I am in the "doesn't count toward 50%" rule, I do think the "Auto-Lose if nothing is on the table" is still in effect. I think we can all agree that "on the table" means "on the table" and not "everything is either destroyed or in Reserves".

 

So if you DWA 100% of your force, your first turn happens and you automatically lose before they can deep strike.

 

You only lose if you have no units on the table at the end of the *game* turn. So if you alpha strike on the first turn, you'll prolly won't auto-lose unless you mishap on all of them.

[CheezeFezt]

@Avon

 

Sorry but you've lost me. Are you claiming that Deathwing Assault is in some way involuntary? If not, then you have still CHOSEN not to deploy the units that are going to DWA, therefore they are still in reserves. The fact that you've now got a two stage process for determining which units are in reserve doesn't change the fact that none of them are deployed, so all of them are in reserve.

 

Avon haven't made up his mind yet. I'm just trying to wear the other guy shoes.

 

The reasoning is as followed:

The rules doesn't state you can only keep 50% in reserve. It stated you may choose not to deploy up to 50% of your unit.

 

So that's where the question come in. Do you determine the deployable units at the very beginning, when you're making your army list or do you determine the number when you actually deploy; eg after the warlord traits, after rolling for who goes first.

 

One camp is in the at the army list time. The other camp is at the actual deployment. I'm in the first camp, but if my opponent said it's the 2nd, I don't see any effective counter. It's reasonable to read the rules and say you count during the actual deployment and then choose not to deploy up to 50%.

[BigGumbo]

Well, for me (and I might be wrong of course) the fact that DWA rule has "there is no need to roll for reserves." part indicates that they are in reserve. Why? Because they tell us to ignore part of the Reserve rule. First, this part would not be needed if the rule was not applicable in our case (why to tell us to ignore part of the rule when we are ignoring the whole rule?), and second - they only tell us clearly to ignore only one part of the rule, not the whole rule.

This would convince me if I needed convincing

[Castillo]

Just wanted to point out: Pg36 40k Rulebook

"Some units must arrive via deep strike. They ALWAYS begin the game in reserve"

 

 

Maybe you have just pointed out the key to this mistery... By the time you deploy your army your DWA units are units that MUST arrive via DS. According to the standard rules that might be the reason why they don't count towards the 50%. After all when choosing what you leave in reserves when deploying those units are not chosen, they are units that MUST arrive via DS like a Dropod.

[Avon Rekaes]

@Avon

 

Sorry but you've lost me. Are you claiming that Deathwing Assault is in some way involuntary? If not, then you have still CHOSEN not to deploy the units that are going to DWA, therefore they are still in reserves. The fact that you've now got a two stage process for determining which units are in reserve doesn't change the fact that none of them are deployed, so all of them are in reserve.

 

No, I'm stating that, in some reasoning, putting units aside for DWA is not putting them aside for Reserves, and therefore ignores any limit Reserves might have.

 

It goes like this. As per the Reserves rule, you decide what's going in Reserves when you deploy. But you have already decided what's goig to be Deathwing Assaulted way way before this decision, since the Deathwing Assault decision happens before anyone even rolls off to detemine who deploys first. Some feel that this indicates that DWA'ed units are not in Reserves at all, because they are set aside to be Deep-Struck in the 1st or 2nd turn before you even decide if you want to put anything in Reserves.

[BigGumbo]

@Avon

 

Sorry but you've lost me. Are you claiming that Deathwing Assault is in some way involuntary? If not, then you have still CHOSEN not to deploy the units that are going to DWA, therefore they are still in reserves. The fact that you've now got a two stage process for determining which units are in reserve doesn't change the fact that none of them are deployed, so all of them are in reserve.

 

Avon haven't made up his mind yet. I'm just trying to wear the other guy shoes.

 

The reasoning is as followed:

The rules doesn't state you can only keep 50% in reserve. It stated you may choose not to deploy up to 50% of your unit.

 

So that's where the question come in. Do you determine the deployable units at the very beginning, when you're making your army list or do you determine the number when you actually deploy; eg after the warlord traits, after rolling for who goes first.

 

One camp is in the at the army list time. The other camp is at the actual deployment. I'm in the first camp, but if my opponent said it's the 2nd, I don't see any effective counter. It's reasonable to read the rules and say you count during the actual deployment and then choose not to deploy up to 50%.

 

The reserves rule states that you can choose not to deploy up to half of your units, disregarding any units which MUST start in reserve (eg flyers or drop pods). It also states that any units not deployed are kept as reserves.

 

At the end of deployment there are two classes of units in each army: those on the table and those in reserve. Which class does your DWA Alpha Strike belong to?

[MrSocks]

Er, well, to be clear, that wouldn't work.

 

While I am in the "doesn't count toward 50%" rule, I do think the "Auto-Lose if nothing is on the table" is still in effect. I think we can all agree that "on the table" means "on the table" and not "everything is either destroyed or in Reserves".

 

So if you DWA 100% of your force, your first turn happens and you automatically lose before they can deep strike.

 

You only lose if you have no units on the table at the end of the *game* turn. So if you alpha strike on the first turn, you'll prolly won't auto-lose unless you mishap on all of them.

 

This is a good point. I really hope someone plays a full death wing assault list (I would let them use it because it'd be fun and unusual), I'd love to see terminators dropping everywhere on the board and just think "OH MY GOD, WHAT AM I GOING TO DO!"

[BigGumbo]

Just to clarify: the reserves rule doesn't specify WHEN you choose not to deploy. I would guess that most people make this choice well before deployment. I know I do...

[CheezeFezt]

Just to clarify: the reserves rule doesn't specify WHEN you choose not to deploy. I would guess that most people make this choice well before deployment. I know I do...

 

Please quote the rule that it doesn't specify WHEN.

 

The rule I thought was in question is pg 124 small rulebook "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy" which expressed the WHEN part.

[CheezeFezt]

@Avon

 

Sorry but you've lost me. Are you claiming that Deathwing Assault is in some way involuntary? If not, then you have still CHOSEN not to deploy the units that are going to DWA, therefore they are still in reserves. The fact that you've now got a two stage process for determining which units are in reserve doesn't change the fact that none of them are deployed, so all of them are in reserve.

 

Avon haven't made up his mind yet. I'm just trying to wear the other guy shoes.

 

The reasoning is as followed:

The rules doesn't state you can only keep 50% in reserve. It stated you may choose not to deploy up to 50% of your unit.

 

So that's where the question come in. Do you determine the deployable units at the very beginning, when you're making your army list or do you determine the number when you actually deploy; eg after the warlord traits, after rolling for who goes first.

 

One camp is in the at the army list time. The other camp is at the actual deployment. I'm in the first camp, but if my opponent said it's the 2nd, I don't see any effective counter. It's reasonable to read the rules and say you count during the actual deployment and then choose not to deploy up to 50%.

 

The reserves rule states that you can choose not to deploy up to half of your units, disregarding any units which MUST start in reserve (eg flyers or drop pods). It also states that any units not deployed are kept as reserves.

 

At the end of deployment there are two classes of units in each army: those on the table and those in reserve. Which class does your DWA Alpha Strike belong to?

 

There are no such rules as there are 2 classes -- units on table, units in Reserve; so it's immaterial how DWA is classified. DWA spelt out how to play DWA. You follow that rule.

 

And even if there is such a thing, does declaring DWA steps before actual deployment turn that unit into something which must start in reserve? Phrased another way, can one choose to deploy the DWA on the table?

 

I know I can choose to deploy a Deathwing Terminator on the table instead of not deploying it, at which point it goes into Reserve and I then have to spell out its organization (mounted on transport, any attached characters) and how it will arrive (outflank, deep strike, hoofing). I know that a Deathwing Terminator held in Reserve can be affected by warlord trait to delay/hurry its arrival; of which the DWA are not affected. Does this make the DWA an exception? I don't know.

[Lion El Jason]

At the end of deployment there are two classes of units in each army: those on the table and those in reserve. Which class does your DWA Alpha Strike belong to?

 

There is no such rule. No rule says that models MUST either be in reserve or deployed, all there is is the rule that you can choose these at deployment. It does not preclude other options.

[worloch]

In Reserve, Not in Reserve ... That's not really the point, is it?

 

Crux of the issue does seem to boil down to whether DWA counts against the 50% reserve limit or not. Other than the implications of that choice, I'm suspecting most people don't care whether they count as "In Reserve" or not.

 

Here is my take on it -

 

Once you declare DWA, can you choose NOT to Deepstrike when you get to the Deployment step?

 

Though the wording of DWA is imprecise in this regard, I think most people would interpret "All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves." to mean 2 things:

 

1) They must arrive via Deepstrike at the start of the chosen turn - hence, they can NOT choose to deploy as normal and not be held in Reserve at the Deployment step.

 

2) That not rolling for Reserves being mentioned at least implies that Reserves are in play here.

 

As such, to my mind, the most straightforward interpretation is that DWA units do count as being in Reserve, but don't count against the 50% limit, as once they are declared to be DWA, they MUST arrive via Deepstrike.

[BigGumbo]

Just to clarify: the reserves rule doesn't specify WHEN you choose not to deploy. I would guess that most people make this choice well before deployment. I know I do...

 

Please quote the rule that it doesn't specify WHEN.

 

The rule I thought was in question is pg 124 small rulebook "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy" which expressed the WHEN part.

OK, my bad for making a declarative statement without the BGB to hand. Apologies.

 

However, you haven't pointed out where my earlier argument falls down. Is there a flaw there? If so, where?

[BigGumbo]

I'm off to bed now. I'll be back in the morning to see whether we've stopped going round in circles...

[CheezeFezt]

Just wanted to point out: Pg36 40k Rulebook

"Some units must arrive via deep strike. They ALWAYS begin the game in reserve"

 

 

Maybe you have just pointed out the key to this mistery... By the time you deploy your army your DWA units are units that MUST arrive via DS. According to the standard rules that might be the reason why they don't count towards the 50%. After all when choosing what you leave in reserves when deploying those units are not chosen, they are units that MUST arrive via DS like a Dropod.

 

You're misreading that quote. That quoted rule doesnt say all Deep Strike unit are in Reserve nor does it say Deep Striker Deep Striking are in Reserve. It simply stated if a unit must arrive by Deep Strike, then some condition follow. Since DWA has no "must arrive by Deep Strike", the condition doesn't apply.

 

Also, as quoted in somewhere in this thread is the rule on DWA, DWA "arrive via Deep Strike" is interpreted as place model, scatter, ring em -- just like every other rules that say "arrive via Deep Strike". DWA doesn't say DWA is Deep Strike. To say all the condition in Deep Strike apply to DWA is slicing it thin.

[CheezeFezt]

Just to clarify: the reserves rule doesn't specify WHEN you choose not to deploy. I would guess that most people make this choice well before deployment. I know I do...

 

Please quote the rule that it doesn't specify WHEN.

 

The rule I thought was in question is pg 124 small rulebook "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy" which expressed the WHEN part.

OK, my bad for making a declarative statement without the BGB to hand. Apologies.

 

However, you haven't pointed out where my earlier argument falls down. Is there a flaw there? If so, where?

 

Thought I did. Your argument is the determination of not deploying is made at all points in the game process; in other word, declaring DWA immediately after the Warlord Traits determination is the decision to not deploy.

 

My counter argument is the wording of the rule stated "when deploying your armies", which the mini-rulebooks also spell out when that is. It occurs after determining warlord traits, after generating psychic power, after rolling for who goes first, only then does one deploys one entire army. At this point of deploying one entire army is where the reserve kick in. At this point, DWA no longer have the option to start on the table, so is it ignored?

[CheezeFezt]

In Reserve, Not in Reserve ... That's not really the point, is it?

 

This is actually important. I know the BRB Eternal War missions all uses Reserve, but there are GW missions out there which don't. If Deathwing Assault make uses of Reserve, then in those mission which don't have Reserve, then one can't DWA like one can't Deep Strike.

 

 

Reading the rule, one can't tell the intent. Should one be able to DWA in those mission without Reserve? If you go by the exact wording, then yes, one simply declare which unit are DWA (eg they are not put in Reserve). If one can DWA without Reserve rule in play, then the 50% question is moot since DWA don't make use of the Reserve rule.