DA alpha strike

[Harleqvin]

Except that Codex Trumps BGB. So DWA goes first and that Reserves is done first in the Deploy Section.. You're welcome.

[Harleqvin]

Adding DWA into this it would go

 

Deployment:

Determine Warlord Traits

DWA

Deploy forces (this is where you do Reserves.)

[cielaq]

Ok, but it doesn't change the fact that, per rulebook, deploying forces is done immediately after determining traits, same as DWA. And this means those two things are done at the same time, as there is nothing in DWA that tells us to do it before "Deploy forces" step.

And "Codex Trumps BGB" only when we have conflict, and there is no conflict here - we have two things that are done immediately after determining traits. And there is no reason not to do them at the same time.

 

EDIT: Harleqvin - please point me to part of DWA rule that tells us that it's done before deployment, as separate step.

[Harleqvin]

CODEX trumps BGB

 

Deployment:

Determine Warlord Traits

DWA

Deploy forces (Reserves done in here at beginning)

[BigGumbo]

Harleqvin, you're just repeating yourself. Please try again.

[Harleqvin]

You're telling me there is no conflict when you saying that both of them are happening at the same time? Sadly this isn't the case.

DWA happens directly after Determine Warlord Trait section. Reserves is done during the Deploy Forces section

 

.So.

 

Deployment:

Determine Warlord Traits

DWA

Deploy forces (Reserves done in here at beginning)

 

and even if we were going with what you said that DWA and Reserves is done at the same time. That would make a conflist and Codex would trump Rulebook. But as said that is not the case. because of the above listing.

[BigGumbo]

You're telling me there is no conflict when you saying that both of them are happening at the same time? Sadly this isn't the case.

DWA happens directly after Determine Warlord Trait section. Reserves is done during the Deploy Forces section

 

.So.

 

Deployment:

Determine Warlord Traits

DWA

Deploy forces (Reserves done in here at beginning)

 

and even if we were going with what you said that DWA and Reserves is done at the same time. That would make a conflist and Codex would trump Rulebook. But as said that is not the case. because of the above listing.

Since you agree that DWA involves reserves doesn't this tend to suggest that it is done as part of the Deploy Forces step, which is immediately after determining warlord traits (so is consistent with C:DA re DWA occurring immediately after determining warlord traits) and includes reserves? If not, why not? What is your warrant for the claim that DWA specifically occurs before deploy forces?

[Harleqvin]

Sadly I have to repeat because you aren't getting the flow of procedure of the game . Reserves are done during the Deploy Section which happens after Determine Warlord Trait( they do this because these things can change how one deploys. catch that part about it being done before Deploy forces section because it can change how one deploys?) This is all in the BGB

 

Deployment:

Determine Warlord Traits

DWA

Deploy forces (Reserves done in here at beginning)

 

DWA is done before you go to Deploy Forces section. Which would then mean before Reserves as they are done in the Deploy forces section.

 

I don't get how you can not see this when it is clearly stated in the BGB about Reserves being done When deploying, which would be the Deploy forces section, that happens after Determine Warlord Traits Section.

[Harleqvin]

IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT IT INVOLVES RESERVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The 50% Reserves rule only matters for when you do Reserves as per the Reserve rules which is durig the Deploy Section that happens after Determine Warlord Trait. DWA happens before that making them forced to be in reserve even thoughit was a choice to make them DWA. DWA happens before Deploy forces(Deploy forces is where Reserves come in for the 50% reserve allocation.).

[cielaq]

No, there is no conflict. As soon as I'm done with trait, I go for the deployment. I say something like this "units A&B are doing DWA, C&D are in reserves (say those are not DW units) and the rest in put on the table". I've done DWA both immediately after traits (as per DWA requirements), and at the same time as Reserves.

"I don't get how you can not see this when it is clearly stated in the BGB about Reserves being done When deploying, which would be the Deploy forces section, that happens after Determine Warlord Traits Section." -That's what I'm saying, both DWA and Deployment happens "immediately after" traits.

[Harleqvin]

in other words. This whole post explains it all.

 

The only thing that truly needs to be stated is this.

Deathwing Assault: Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator Armor can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Trait, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no need to roll for reserves.

 

All these units are being chosen before the Deploy Forces section that happens after choosing Determine Warlord Trait section. Which the deploy section is when you choose who is being held in reserve. Also in the BGB it states that models who arrive by Deep Strike do so from Reserve.

 

Yes the DW are in reserve but they are not being chosen to be in Reserve in the normal way. They are being forced to Deploy by Deep Stirke, Which if you arrive from Deep Strike you arrive from Reserve.

 

The Deathwing units that are being put into Deathwing Assault are being done so before the normal time for placing models into Reserve which is in the Deploy Forces section after Determine Warlord Trait.

 

Because of this distinction that says Deathwing Assault is done Immediately after Determine Warlord Trait, it is forcing them to be held in reserve. Keep in mind this is only the Units that are doing the Deathwing Assault.

 

 

 

 

So furthering:

Yes, models doing Deathwing Assault are coming from Reserve because they are Deep Striking.

No. Models doing the Deathwing Assault are not counted for 50% allowed Reserves because they are being forced to be in Reserve before the Reserves rule happens in the Deploy Forces Section when Reserves are normally done. This is because it happens Immediately after Determine Warlord trait section which would then be before Deploy Forces section.

 

Deployment:

Determine Warlord Trait

Deathwing Assault

Deploy forces (this is where you do the Reserves rule that would count for 50% of army to be held in reserve but because DWA happens before this step you don't count them.)

[cielaq]

You're repeating over and over again that DWA is "immediately after traits" - and that is true. But another thing that happens "immediately after traits" is Deployment (including reserves). And I have already shown that we can do both things can be done easily at the same time.

[EPK]

I think 6 pages of this proved one thing: The entry is not clear enough.

 

I'd say you all give your fingers a rest and wait to see what the FAQ brings - I surely hope they address it, it is certainly a big deal. I suppose you just have to play however you interpret it until then, but I think trying to argue to your opponent that they aren't reserves might be a headache.

 

I know what I said will not help, but it was worth saying... at least to me.

[Balthamal]

I think 6 pages of this proved one thing: The entry is not clear enough.

 

I'd say you all give your fingers a rest and wait to see what the FAQ brings - I surely hope they address it, it is certainly a big deal. I suppose you just have to play however you interpret it until then, but I think trying to argue to your opponent that they aren't reserves might be a headache.

 

I know what I said will not help, but it was worth saying... at least to me.

 

Amen

[Harleqvin]

DWA happens before Deploy forces. Deploy forces is when you do Reserve Rule. It is clear in the BGB on this. Reserve Rule (the rule stated as Reserve, not things that end up in reserve.) happens during the DEPLOY FORCES section. DWA happens before that.

 

I think the word you are getting hooked up on is "reserve" There is a difference for Reserve the "rule" which happens during the Deploy forces Section and things having been put in reserve. The case is because they arrive via Deep Strike (this being part of DWA that happens before "Deploy Forces" section.) "they must be in reserve". This distinction happens before the Deploy Forces section. Because they "must be in reserve" due to DWA because they arrive via Deep Stirke. Because this choice of DWA they "must" be in reserve when Deploy Forces section happens, which is when "Reserve" 50% allocation happens.

 

I mean, I don't know how else to say it, when there is no other way to say it, any less of a way to say it.

 

I think 6 pages of this proved one thing: The entry is not clear enough. I'd say you all give your fingers a rest and wait to see what the FAQ brings - I surely hope they address it, it is certainly a big deal. I suppose you just have to play however you interpret it until then, but I think trying to argue to your opponent that they aren't reserves might be a headache. I know what I said will not help, but it was worth saying... at least to me.

Amen

 

didn't see this as I was typing what i had before as clear and simple as i could :lol:

 

Yes. let's end this for the now.

[cielaq]

DWA happens before Deploy forces. Deploy forces is when you do Reserve Rule. It is clear in the BGB on this. Reserve Rule (the rule stated as Reserve, not things that end up in reserve.) happens during the DEPLOY FORCES section. DWA happens before that.

And this is the point we do not agree - for me it's perfectly possible and legal to do DWA during Deploy Forces.

But yeah, time to end it for now.

[Castillo]

DWA happens before Deploy forces. Deploy forces is when you do Reserve Rule. It is clear in the BGB on this. Reserve Rule (the rule stated as Reserve, not things that end up in reserve.) happens during the DEPLOY FORCES section. DWA happens before that.

And this is the point we do not agree - for me it's perfectly possible and legal to do DWA during Deploy Forces.

But yeah, time to end it for now.

 

Would it that case the rule be defined as happening as part of the Deploy Forces step? Come on... is like you have never read a rules manual in your live. When a rule is defined to happen immediately after something it means after doing that but before doing the next thing on the usual flow. Is like it was said before, if both things are done immediately after CWT (chose warlord trait) there is a conflict cause both can not happen immediately (you can not do two things simultaneously when following steps and nowhere says this is included in the DF step) then codex > brb, so DWA goes first if you are not able to follow this then sincerely I don't find you apt enough to discuss rules.

 

I disagree that the timing is crucial - you are doing voluntary action, and later claim it is forced to you. It doesn't matter when you make a decision - you are making it, that's all that matters.

Now before I reply I just want to say I'm in the camp that says it does count towards the 50% reserves rule, though I can see the other side of the coin. But with that reasoning when I take a Vendetta or Valkyrie and put a Veteran Squad in them, the Veterans should count towards the 50% rule. But they don't.

 

As per the FAQ

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in

reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in

Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or

Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)

A: No

 

Even though the Veterans are able to deploy normally I'm choosing to put them in the Valk/Ven during deployment. Now before the FAQ I would always count these Vets towards the 50% rule, but now I don't. So what's to say that units you choose to deploy via DWA and hold in reserve, just like you chose to put those Veterans in the Valk/Ven, aren't going to go against the 50% rule? This needs an FAQ desperately.

 

The Valk is by the FAQ, the drop pod falls nicely in the rules in the second paragraph of pg 36 of the rulebook (not counting the epigraph and fluff)

Actually now that I think of it it might be a case of hidden rule... I don't have the BRB with me so I am not sure if it says that units that must DS must go into reserves and units that must go into reserves don't count and neither do what they are transporting (that would be the hidden cause it would apply to not DS specific but be declared inside the DS rules) or it says that units that must DS must go into reserves and units that must DS don't count and neither do what they transport.

[Avon Rekaes]

No, there is no conflict. As soon as I'm done with trait, I go for the deployment. I say something like this "units A&B are doing DWA, C&D are in reserves (say those are not DW units) and the rest in put on the table". I've done DWA both immediately after traits (as per DWA requirements), and at the same time as Reserves.

 

No, you don't, and no, you didn't.

 

Normally, without DWA, after you Determine Warlord Traits, you then go to Deploy Forces and roll off to see who goes first. DWA happens before that roll to see who goes first, because DWA is immediately after the Determine Warlords step.

 

This is an important distinct because, let's assume the Dark Angels player loses the roll-off and deploys after his opponent. So you're saying he sits there and waits for his opponent to set up his army, and then determines what's in DWA? That is clearly against the rules-as-written, because that is not immediately after the Determine Warlords step. That's after Determine Warlords, after rolling off to see who goes first, and possibly after your opponent has finished deploying. I don't think anyone can argue that as any definition of "immediate", which is what the actual wording of DWA says.

 

Also, with regards to people saying that they've decided their normal reserves at the army list level and not at Deployment, that is incorrect. You may have "planned to decide" to put units in reserves way before you even arrived at the table, but you have not actually cemented your decision and actually decided until you get to your turn in the Deploy Forces step.

 

To use a tortured analogy, you may be engaged to someone, intend to marry them, but you don't actually decide to marry them until you say "I do". At any point before then, you can change your mind and not have to get a divorce or annulment.

[Castillo]

but the point is is that it is done before the Deploy forces section. That is where you do reserves. Because the choice is being done before then it makes it not optional when you get to the Reserves part in Deploy Forces.

 

It is no longer an option when you get to that step.

I think too much is being read into this "deploy forces step" point. Reserves are stated in the BGB as being units which can be "called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice or to conceal your true strength from the foe" (p.124, BGB). This definition applies equally to units chosen for DWA, doesn't it? Or would you seriously argue that not deploying for any other reason (like, say, you forgot about that model during deployment - which has happened more than once in my experience) means that the non-deployed units are not reserves?

 

Seriuosly? You are arguing rules using as a base the fluff background description of the rule? That screams "impressive lack of proper arguments"

[BigGumbo]

but the point is is that it is done before the Deploy forces section. That is where you do reserves. Because the choice is being done before then it makes it not optional when you get to the Reserves part in Deploy Forces.

 

It is no longer an option when you get to that step.

I think too much is being read into this "deploy forces step" point. Reserves are stated in the BGB as being units which can be "called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice or to conceal your true strength from the foe" (p.124, BGB). This definition applies equally to units chosen for DWA, doesn't it? Or would you seriously argue that not deploying for any other reason (like, say, you forgot about that model during deployment - which has happened more than once in my experience) means that the non-deployed units are not reserves?

 

Seriuosly? You are arguing rules using as a base the fluff background description of the rule? That screams "impressive lack of proper arguments"

I can't see a meaningful difference between this and claiming that there are two different types of reserves because you decide at different times when the units go into reserve. Reserves are reserves are reserves...

[Avon Rekaes]

Really? You can't see where the other side is coming from? You see fluff justification as being the same as "This is clearly a decision made at a newly defined and seperate game step than deciding what goes into Reserves, so it is ambiguous whether the rules for Reserves applies"?

 

I think this discussing is getting too personal and vindictive. No one here is stupid, no one here can't read. We all are coming at this with our own internal logic. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it illogical.

[Castillo]

but the point is is that it is done before the Deploy forces section. That is where you do reserves. Because the choice is being done before then it makes it not optional when you get to the Reserves part in Deploy Forces.

 

It is no longer an option when you get to that step.

I think too much is being read into this "deploy forces step" point. Reserves are stated in the BGB as being units which can be "called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice or to conceal your true strength from the foe" (p.124, BGB). This definition applies equally to units chosen for DWA, doesn't it? Or would you seriously argue that not deploying for any other reason (like, say, you forgot about that model during deployment - which has happened more than once in my experience) means that the non-deployed units are not reserves?

 

Seriuosly? You are arguing rules using as a base the fluff background description of the rule? That screams "impressive lack of proper arguments"

I can't see a meaningful difference between this and claiming that there are two different types of reserves because you decide at different times when the units go into reserve. Reserves are reserves are reserves...

You don't decide to put the in reserves, you decide to use a rule called DWA, this rules forces you to DS, since you MUST DS (no choice about this, your choice is about DWA) according to page 36 you MUST go into reserves and DON'T count towards the 50% rule. Going into reserves is not the choice is a consequence of a rule, entering by DS is not a choice, is a consequence of a rule. The choice is whether or not do DWA, everything else is a consequence of that rule not a choice of the player. I don't choose to kill models in the shooting phase, I choose to shot at them, the rest is a consequence of the rules.

[Castillo]

Really? You can't see where the other side is coming from? You see fluff justification as being the same as "This is clearly a decision made at a newly defined and seperate game step than deciding what goes into Reserves, so it is ambiguous whether the rules for Reserves applies"?

 

I think this discussing is getting too personal and vindictive. No one here is stupid, no one here can't read. We all are coming at this with our own internal logic. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it illogical.

 

Sorry but logic is not "my own" or "internal", that's the main beauty of logic, it is formal and pretty well defined.

And by the way, I had not definite opinion on the subject when I started reading the thread. So I can perfectly well see were the doubt comes from but once you read pg36, pg122, pg124 and the DWA in detail the issue is almost crystal clear if you just pay attention.

[Remmy]

This rings pretty close to the "can you gate of infinity out of combat". normally you can't take "move" actions while in combat except for pile ins.

 

The crux is that the "movement" out of combat is a "side effect" of casting gate of infinity. Largely gate of infinity out of combat or pinned has been determined to be against the rules due to deep strike being "movement". So while you may be allowed to cast gate, it causes your units to "move" which breaks the rules.

 

Even though you can place units into DWA, I don't think it will pan out that players will find it acceptable to not place 1/2 your units onto the table. 2000 points of terminators deep striking into the opponents front lines reeks of cheese on top of creating rule conflicts.

[Castillo]

This rings pretty close to the "can you gate of infinity out of combat". normally you can't take "move" actions while in combat except for pile ins.

 

The crux is that the "movement" out of combat is a "side effect" of casting gate of infinity. Largely gate of infinity out of combat or pinned has been determined to be against the rules due to deep strike being "movement". So while you may be allowed to cast gate, it causes your units to "move" which breaks the rules.

 

Even though you can place units into DWA, I don't think it will pan out that players will find it acceptable to not place 1/2 your units onto the table. 2000 points of terminators deep striking into the opponents front lines reeks of cheese on top of creating rule conflicts.

Quoting an unrelated ruling, made on a different edition, followed by a "rules intention" argument. Personally I think that trying to argue about RAI is a useless as discussing the gender of angels. We can dechyper RAW, RAI goes down to pure interpretation. In that case my argument would be "DW is traditionally expected and described as appearing in the middle of battle, if the codex allows a pure DW army why wouldn't it allow it to use the typical DW tactic" or maybe "Last codex had a limitation for the DW assault to 50% of your DW units so probably they intented to keep this in some way by the 50% reserves rule". I personally consider both equally useless out of how to house rule things with your friends.