DA alpha strike

[dswanick]

So chosing to take the Drop Pod is irrelvant. It's roughly analogous to chosing to take Deathwing squads. Okay, you made your choice, and its in your army list. But when you get to your turn in Deploy Forces, whether that Tac Squad goes in Reserves with it's Drop Pod or not is entirely up to you. It's a choice, just like whether I decide to field my Deathwing squads with DWA or not is choice.

The difference is that you can't choose not to Deep Strike a Drop Pod, so it does not count against the 50% limit.

The Tac squad can choose not to embark in the Drop Pod, but it only doesn't count against the 50% limit because a Transport and it's embark unit are declared by the rules to not count. Not because you don't choose to Deep Strike the squad.

[Avon Rekaes]

I cant make those calls im no psychologist. But yes you can choose to not put guys into the drop pod. You can choose to slog your DW as well, it really has no bearing on whether or not DW counts for the 50% or not or in the earlier sections fo this thread whether DW are in reserve or not. I was merly stating that your logic in that case goes nowhere because it has nothing to do with this situation. If you choose to DWA you are at that very moment CHOOSING to deep strike as that is how DWA are deployed. You can of course choose to start on the board.

 

It is very relevant, because if you choose to put the Tac Squad in the Drop Pod, the Tac Squad does not count toward the 50% Reserves limit, despite being a unit that isn't noted as "must start the game in Reserves", despite it being your choice to mount them in the Drop Pod.

 

Everyone agreed on the above? Good, cause I don't think anyone's contesting it. Now let's play the word-subsitution game.

 

It is very relevant, because if you choose to put the DW Terminators in Deathwing Assault, the DW Terminators do not count toward the 50% Reserves limit, despite being a unit that isn't noted as "must start the game in Reserves", despite it being your choice to put them on the board via Deathwing Assault.

 

MY! OUTSTANDING! IT'S ALMOST THE SAME PARAGRAPH! It's as if I'm using the same logic to refute you're interpretation of the rules as a pre-existing and universally understood game mechanic.

 

Now am I saying this is RAW? No. Am I saying that the DWA is clear and it's intent can't be misundestood? No.

 

Am I saying that my side of this arguement isn't entirely devoid of reason and sense? Yes.

 

Am I saying you're being insulting for saying otherwise? Yes.

[facmanpob]

Occam's Razor, that's the principle I use to work this out, but I'm not going to state my position because I'll just get insulted by one side of the argument. :(

 

This thread is getting a little out of hand!

[Red Fury]

Wow, this is crazy and definitely needs a FAQ.

 

I think that DWAssault does NOT count towards the 50% rule as it is. And I hope it's FAQ'd this way too, for fluff if nothing else.

 

1st is the DWA is set before the armies deploy, indicating to me that it is a separate action which includes the directions to "deploy" on turn 1 or 2 of your choice.

 

2nd, during Deployment, forces are either deployed onto the table or into reserves. DWA specifically says they are not deployed until later, as above.

 

3rd, Deepstrike rules are used as a mechanic, and that's all. (As in pick a spot, roll for scatter, mishaps, etc, etc) There is plenty of precedence of it as a mechanic not requiring "being in reserves". Many examples have been given already but, I'll add "Skies of Blood" which allow my Blood Angels to "Deepstike" from inside a Stormraven, who are clearly not in reserves.

 

Q: Do models chosen to "Death Wing Assault" count towards the reserves 50% rule?

A: Yes/No

 

Who knows what they will rule it as...GW goes in the face of logic, and expectations alike, all the time.

[dswanick]

Everyone agreed on the above? Good, cause I don't think anyone's contesting it. Now let's play the word-subsitution game.

 

No, for the reason given here.

So chosing to take the Drop Pod is irrelvant. It's roughly analogous to chosing to take Deathwing squads. Okay, you made your choice, and its in your army list. But when you get to your turn in Deploy Forces, whether that Tac Squad goes in Reserves with it's Drop Pod or not is entirely up to you. It's a choice, just like whether I decide to field my Deathwing squads with DWA or not is choice.

The difference is that you can't choose not to Deep Strike a Drop Pod, so it does not count against the 50% limit.

The Tac squad can choose not to embark in the Drop Pod, but it only doesn't count against the 50% limit because a Transport and it's embark unit are declared by the rules to not count. Not because you don't choose to Deep Strike the squad.

The Tac Squad "doesn't count" not because you can't choose to not Deep Strike it, but because it's embarked in a Deep Striking Dedicated Transport. Completely different rule making it "not count".

[elphilo]

The Tac Squad "doesn't count" not because you can't choose to not Deep Strike it, but because it's embarked in a Deep Striking Dedicated Transport. Completely different rule making it "not count".

 

Just to point this out, then what about Veterans in a Valkyrie or Vendetta? They aren't a dedicated transport to them, but they can choose to be in them and don't count towards the 50% rule.

[dswanick]

The Tac Squad "doesn't count" not because you can't choose to not Deep Strike it, but because it's embarked in a Deep Striking Dedicated Transport. Completely different rule making it "not count".

 

Just to point this out, then what about Veterans in a Valkyrie or Vendetta? They aren't a dedicated transport to them, but they can choose to be in them and don't count towards the 50% rule.

The BRB FAQ extends this to non-Dedicated Transports as well:

"Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in

Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)

A: No."

It's still based on their being embarked in a transport, not whether they can or can not choose to start in Reserves themselves.

[elphilo]

The Tac Squad "doesn't count" not because you can't choose to not Deep Strike it, but because it's embarked in a Deep Striking Dedicated Transport. Completely different rule making it "not count".

 

Just to point this out, then what about Veterans in a Valkyrie or Vendetta? They aren't a dedicated transport to them, but they can choose to be in them and don't count towards the 50% rule.

The BRB FAQ extends this to non-Dedicated Transports as well:

"Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in

Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)

A: No."

It's still based on their being embarked in a transport, not whether they can or can not choose to start in Reserves themselves.

 

I understand that, but it seemed like your argument was based on they were in a dedicated transport so it doesn't count. Only reason I brought that up :P

[Avon Rekaes]

The Tac Squad "doesn't count" not because you can't choose to not Deep Strike it, but because it's embarked in a Deep Striking Dedicated Transport. Completely different rule making it "not count".

Just to point this out, then what about Veterans in a Valkyrie or Vendetta? They aren't a dedicated transport to them, but they can choose to be in them and don't count towards the 50% rule.

 

Thank you elpholio.

 

Let's play word-substitution again. It is very relevant, because if you choose to put the Vets in the Valkyrie, the Vets do not count toward the 50% Reserves limit, despite being a unit that isn't noted as "must start the game in Reserves", despite it being your choice to mount them in the Vendetta.

 

Exactly the same reasoning, if not the same rules. The rules for units embarked in Transports allow the same reasoning. Therefore, why is it so crazy and unreasonable to read DWA as following the same reasoning? I'm not saying it 100% absolutely DOES. I'm saying that by my reasoning it may be leaning that way, and I'm tired of being called crazy, illogical, disingenuous, or any number of other personal attacks for thinking so.

 

To reiterate. If you don't agree with me that is 100% FINE. I am NOT GOING TO STOP YOU. And I am not going to BELITTLE YOU for disagreeing with me either. And I would expect the same courtesy from you.

 

Too bad I've been sorely dissappointed.

[Agerjag]

The drop pod has no relevence to the actual discussion at hand as dswanick has stated.

I cant make those calls im no psychologist. But yes you can choose to not put guys into the drop pod. You can choose to slog your DW as well, it really has no bearing on whether or not DW counts for the 50% or not or in the earlier sections fo this thread whether DW are in reserve or not. I was merly stating that your logic in that case goes nowhere because it has nothing to do with this situation. If you choose to DWA you are at that very moment CHOOSING to deep strike as that is how DWA are deployed. You can of course choose to start on the board.

It is very relevant, because if you choose to put the Tac Squad in the Drop Pod, the Tac Squad does not count toward the 50% Reserves limit, despite being a unit that isn't noted as "must start the game in Reserves", despite it being your choice to mount them in the Drop Pod. Everyone agreed on the above? Good, cause I don't think anyone's contesting it. Now let's play the word-subsitution game. It is very relevant, because if you choose to put the DW Terminators in Deathwing Assault, the DW Terminators do not count toward the 50% Reserves limit, despite being a unit that isn't noted as "must start the game in Reserves", despite it being your choice to put them on the board via Deathwing Assault. MY! OUTSTANDING! IT'S ALMOST THE SAME PARAGRAPH! It's as if I'm using the same logic to refute you're interpretation of the rules as a pre-existing and universally understood game mechanic. Now am I saying this is RAW? No. Am I saying that the DWA is clear and it's intent can't be misundestood? No. Am I saying that my side of this arguement isn't entirely devoid of reason and sense? Yes. Am I saying you're being insulting for saying otherwise? Yes.

 

First off, playing word supstitution to make a rules point is counter productive. Second, the fact that transports as stated above allow you to not count towards the 50% restriction has literally no bearing on whether DWA does. You do not DWA in a transport. When you choose to deathwing assault you are choosing to deepstrike so when you get to the you can have half your army in reaserve section they are counted, unless it is errtatad. They do not fall into the you must reserve rule and they do not deploy in transport that must be in reserve. Im pretty sure that if they meant you to DWA your entire army they would have said something along the lines of does not count for 50% reserve. There is nothing saying they must be held in reserve ANYWHERE. How can you say that they are forced to be in reserve because you chose to deepstrike them, thats just silly.

[CheezeFezt]

I'm hoping to summarize the reasoning and maybe put this thread to sleep.

 

Codex:DA modified the game flow

Determine Warlord Traits

DWA declaration

Generate Psychic Power

Roll for who goes first

Deploy forces

 

Those who claim that "Deploy Force" is also immediately after Warlord Traits ignored the other substeps (Generate Psychic Power/Roll for who goes first). It's pretty clear that DWA declaration is done before Deploy Force.

 

DWA make the unit not available for deployment, which could exempt them toward the limit.

 

The issue that can't be resolved is if the timing of DWA is important. I understand that DWA declaration is voluntary, but the BRB is silent on when the inability to set up is determined. I'm in the camp it's at the army list. Other believe it's at the actual deployment. If you can quote the rule that specifies when, that would be great. But so far, all we got are subjective understanding -- a conflict which will goes on infinity.

 

The other issues got to do with whether DWA is in Reserve. This is important for 2 reasons.

 

1) If it make use of the "Reserve" rule, then DWA can only be used in mission with Reserve. Wording of DWA makes no mention of Reserve nor does it call out exception (eg DWA can be used even in mission that don't use Reserve). This will need an FAQ.

 

2) Would power that affect Reserve affect DWA -- delaying Reserve coming on board, shooting at reserve (Cortez We Been Expecting You), etc.

 

I don't see any specific rules that addresses these. There are no rule "if it's not on the table, then it's in reserve." I believe all of these needs to be FAQ.

 

 

I'll address the mounted on transport here too. Flyer transport & drop pod are specifically exempt in the BRB along with all of its transported unit. So the timing of declaration isn't important.

 

With regard to IC & DWA, that's actually a good point. IC can only join unit during deploy force, so can IC be attached to a unit that's DWA. That needs to be FAQ too.

[Gumo9]

Lost the will to live several posts back... Has anyone emailed GW with this question yet?

 

G

[Avon Rekaes]

I'm not saying they must be in Reserves because you chose to Deep Strike them. I am showing precedent for other units that do not count toward 50% despite not being labled "must be in Reserves".

 

I am saying that by the time you reach your turn in Deploy Forces, your Deathwing Assaulted units are already unable to be deployed. And I am equating the choice to place units in DWA (before anyone even begins to set up their Deployment, before anyone even determines who deploys first) as similar in nature and reasoning, not RAW (since RAW has done exactly jack-nill except make this whole thing confusing anyway), as putting a unit in a transport.

 

Any point you might have about "I'm sure they would have mentioned..." can be countered with another equally interpretative reading on the rule.

 

"I'm sure if DWA counted toward the 50% Reserves rule they would have mentioned that units chosen for DWA are in Reserves."

 

Same with....

 

"They explain that there's no need to roll for reserves because DWA units are in reserves!"

 

and

 

"They clarify that there's no need to roll for reserves because DWA aren't in reserves!"

 

It's all interpretation because the DWA is worded CRAPPILY and is TOO AMBIGUOUS.

[shabbadoo]

How about everyone simply state exactly how they think the DWA is supposed to work, and under what restrictions, if any? Lets see if this results in any agreement of any kind. Otherwise, people are arguing just to argue, which is rather pointless.

[Remmy]

I will be playing my squads as counting against the 50% reserve limits.

[Avon Rekaes]

This is how I see it working, and I will use precedent with other rulings to note my reasoning.

 

1. Determine Warlord traits.

-2. Determine which of your DW units will arrive by DWA. Make a note when each unit would arrive on 1st and 2nd turn. These are placed aside in an entirely new concept-space that someone once dubed a "lockbox", and others have derogatorily described as "magic". The reason I feel this is an entirely new concept and not Reserves is because this step takes place well before determining which units are in Reserve actually happens and later on, deploying units from DWA doesn't even make use of Reserve Rules. So the units are entering this space unlike any other Reserve unit, and are leaving it unlike any other Reserve unit. It does not feel like the same "space" as Reserve in practice, and until explicitly told otherwise, it is entirely valid to feel that way based on evidence.

3. Generate Psychic Powers.

4. Roll to see who deploys first.

5. During your turn for deployment, decide if any units will be held in Reserve, then deploy as normal. Then do Infiltrate and Scout as you would normally.

6. Try to Sieze Initiative.

-7. When it is the appropriate turn, your DWA units arrive on the table using the Deep Strike rules to determine how to place them. This does not necessarily mean they are arriving from Reserves because Deep Strike has been used elsewhere in the game to place models on the table that aren't coming in from Reserves by special rules that explicitly say to use Deep Strike. Examples of this are the Gates of Infinity pyschic power (which nowhere indicates that the model being teleported is "placed in Reserves", just removed from the table), and the Blood Angel's Skies of Blood deployment menthod using their Stormraven.

 

That's how I think the rule works. I've used reasoning and precedent to explain why I think it works like that. I don't think that makes me disingenuous, crazy, or anything else deserving of scorn.

[Agerjag]

It is true that the whole thing could have been worded in a better way, but its all we got till they FAQ. My personal opinion on how it should be is very similar to how it was before. Its a normal deepstrike except for the not having to role bit. It counts towards the 50% so you cannot have your entire terminator army arrive turn 1(you could not do this last codex either). The only new things really is that you can choose turn one or turn 2. You should of course declare it during the time stated. This way you can have your IC's join your squads normally like in normal reserve and deepstrike them together.

 

@Avon Rekaes: So youve proven when you play word substitution it changes the entire meaning.....thats like invalidating 2 of your previous posts. An entire army of terminators arriving turn 1 is kinda a big deal and hard to miss mentioning. I cant think of another army that can deepstrike EVERYTHING turn 1.

[dswanick]

It is true that the whole thing could have been worded in a better way, but its all we got till they FAQ. My personal opinion on how it should be is very similar to how it was before. Its a normal deepstrike except for the not having to role bit. It counts towards the 50% so you cannot have your entire terminator army arrive turn 1(you could not do this last codex either). The only new things really is that you can choose turn one or turn 2. You should of course declare it during the time stated. This way you can have your IC's join your squads normally like in normal reserve and deepstrike them together.

 

@Avon Rekaes: So youve proven when you play word substitution it changes the entire meaning.....thats like invalidating 2 of your previous posts. An entire army of terminators arriving turn 1 is kinda a big deal and hard to miss mentioning. I cant think of another army that can deepstrike EVERYTHING turn 1.

And ignores Interceptor shooting, I've been Expecting you, all other armies Reserve counter-measures...

[Agerjag]

Unfortunately in this "Lockbox" you cannot have characters like say Belial join your squads as you can only join sqauds during deployment or while in reserve. Which leads me to believe that you are really placed into reserve like any other deepstriking unit. As he has this handy ability that is supposed to help a squad he is joined to. The fact that you have to mark down which units are using DWA, inform your opponent as well as mark a turn does not mean that they are then placed into a special zone. Its just a step. They are deployed normally via deepstrike which if you read the deepstrike rules state that you put them into reserve. How we started creating never before seen game zones is beyond me.

[Avon Rekaes]

@Avon Rekaes: So youve proven when you play word substitution it changes the entire meaning.....thats like invalidating 2 of your previous posts.

 

The point of the word substitution was to refute the people repeatedly stating that it's a 100% clear-cut "they don't have to start in Reserves, so they count toward 50%", by showing them other situations in which units that don't have to start in Reserves also do not count toward the 50% limit when using specific rules (in the established case, being embarked on a Transport starting in Reserves.)

 

I'm not countering that it therefore is absolutely certain that DWA uses the same reasoning (different from the same rules, since it's not a transport, obviously). Merely pointing out that in the game of 6th Edition 40k, there is precedent for specific rules waving the necessity for a unit that may or may not start in Reserves to count toward the 50% limit.

 

Therefore, it is still ambiguous, whether DWA was meant to also wave that limitation.

[Avon Rekaes]

Unfortunately in this "Lockbox" you cannot have characters like say Belial join your squads as you can only join sqauds during deployment or while in reserve.

 

Which sounds like a balancing factor, maybe. Or a possible oversight. Because really, who the hell knows with the way this rule is written?

 

They are deployed normally via deepstrike which if you read the deepstrike rules state that you put them into reserve. How we started creating never before seen game zones is beyond me.

 

Please see my Gates of Infinity and Skies of Blood reasoning in my "this is how I think it works" post, step 7. Deep Striking can be evoked by special rules to place models on the table that aren't coming from Reserves.

 

As for how I feel like there's a new game state, let me use another well known metaphor, but in reverse.

 

The usual metaphor is "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck".

 

This duck doesn't walk or quack like a duck. You put units into DWA way way before you decide what units are in Reserve and the round that they come onto the table is decided entirely unlike how you roll for Reserves.

 

And just because it has feathers doesn't necessarily make it a duck. Other birds have feathers too. Just like how other special rules in the game (Gates of Infinity, Skies of Blood) make use of Deep Strike, as well as Reserves, so it doesn't necessarily follow that DWA are coming from Reserves because of Deep Strike.

 

So if it doesn't walk like a duck (Put in DWA way way before Reserves), quack like a duck (Comes on the table without needing to roll like you do for Reserves), but has feathers like other birds do (Place on table via Deep Strike, like Reserves, Gates of Infinity, and Skies of Blood do), then what type of bird is it?

 

It probably isn't a duck, just because it has feathers.

[worloch]

... snip ...

An entire army of terminators arriving turn 1 is kinda a big deal and hard to miss mentioning. I cant think of another army that can deepstrike EVERYTHING turn 1.

 

The game changes ...

 

There was a time when I couldn't conceive of Deepstriking Landraiders as well ... but then the BA codex came out and the game changed.

 

 

I'm not saying that I have the one true answer or anything like that - we have to wait on GW to hopefully FAQ it - but we have to at least accept the idea that just maybe the game has changed.

[Agerjag]

Id agree that It is ambiguous and could be better written. Deathwing Assault really only covers that you must tell you opponent ahead of time.

 

"Deathwing Assault: Units entirely composed of models that have both this rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no need to roll for reserves."

 

It states that you let your opponent know and write your turn after warlord traits. Then it says you automatically arrive via deepstrike. If you look a at the deepstrike rules which you are using in this case that means from reserve. There are a few powers you have mentioned that take a model in play and then make it arrive via deepstrike immediately. For all purposes you can in fact say that you are then arriving from reserve with that model and there is nothing stating otherwise, thought that really doesnt help or hurt you in any way.

 

Also how is that a balancing factor? Belial and his squad do not scatter...I really do not think that they meant this just to be him by himself.

 

@Worloch: I didnt expect deepstriking landraiders either 0.0

They could certainly errata to let all terminators deepstrike what im saying is that until they do we should stick to the RAW, which unfortunately are interpreted differently by different people. Majority seem to believe they count towards 50% so far though. You can check Warseer and the rest of this thread and see that.

 

EDIT: seems Dakka also has a thread with one person disagreeing and the vast majority agreeing that they are in reserve and count towards 50%.

[dswanick]

... snip ...

An entire army of terminators arriving turn 1 is kinda a big deal and hard to miss mentioning. I cant think of another army that can deepstrike EVERYTHING turn 1.

 

The game changes ...

 

There was a time when I couldn't conceive of Deepstriking Landraiders as well ... but then the BA codex came out and the game changed.

 

 

I'm not saying that I have the one true answer or anything like that - we have to wait on GW to hopefully FAQ it - but we have to at least accept the idea that just maybe the game has changed.

There's "game changing", and then there's "game breaking". What would you call your opponent's entire army deploying in your deployment zone on turn 1? Especially with some of the most cost effective TDA in the game?

[worloch]

This is how I see it working, and I will use precedent with other rulings to note my reasoning.

 

... snip ...

 

That's how I think the rule works. I've used reasoning and precedent to explain why I think it works like that. I don't think that makes me disingenuous, crazy, or anything else deserving of scorn.

 

And that is one valid interpretation, but I think it is not the best one, because it requires the introducition of new mechanics that don't play nice with existing rulesets - Here is your same format listing with my interpretation:

 

1. Determine Warlord traits.

-2. Determine which of your DW units will arrive by DWA. Make a note when each unit would arrive on 1st and 2nd turn. These units are now earmarked for DWA and as such must enter play via Deepstrike on the appropriate turn.

3. Generate Psychic Powers.

4. Roll to see who deploys first.

- 5. During your turn for deployment, decide if any units will be held in Reserve, then deploy as normal. As your DWA earmarked units must enter play via Deepstrike, they are placed in Reserve at this time. As they can not choose to enter play via normal deployment and must enter play via Deepstrike, they do not count against the 50% reserve limit and can be held in Reserve even in Missions that don't have the Reserves rule. Then do Infiltrate and Scout as you would normally.

6. Try to Sieze Initiative.

-7. When it is the appropriate turn, your DWA units arrive on the table from Reserve using the Deep Strike rules to determine how to place them. You do not have to roll for them to arrive from Reserve, because DWA specifies you do not but other special rules in existing rulesets that trigger off of the Reserves and Deepstrike rules are still in effect as normal.

 

 

The only downside (depending on your point of view) of this interpretation that I can see, is that it could allow you to a 1st turn, whole army, Deepstrike. Not entirely unfluffy for a pure DW force in my opinion, and not entirely outside the bounds of what GW might conceive of, again, in my opinion.