DA alpha strike

[CheezeFezt]

Id agree that It is ambiguous and could be better written. Deathwing Assault really only covers that you must tell you opponent ahead of time.

 

"Deathwing Assault: Units entirely composed of models that have both this rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no need to roll for reserves."

 

It states that you let your opponent know and write your turn after warlord traits. Then it says you automatically arrive via deepstrike. If you look a at the deepstrike rules which you are using in this case that means from reserve.

 

Deep Strike is a specific rule, like DWA. In order to Deep Strike, the mission must have Reserve, then during deployment, you can choose to not deploy a unit with Deep Strike special rule, and then declare it's Deep Strike. Make a Reserve roll, then deploy via Deep Strike (place one model, scatter, ring em).

 

Just like Deep Strike, DWA has its own special rule. Immediately after Warlord Traits, do blah. The 2 don't mix. The requirement of one (unit must have "Deep Strike", don't deploy unit, declare unit is Deep Strike) does not apply to DWA. DWA only requires the unit are composed entirely of models with Deathwing Assault special rule and Terminator armor. No requirement for "Deep Strike" special rule.

 

 

There are a few powers you have mentioned that take a model in play and then make it arrive via deepstrike immediately. For all purposes you can in fact say that you are then arriving from reserve with that model and there is nothing stating otherwise, thought that really doesnt help or hurt you in any way

 

Unit without "Deep Strike" special ability then can't be Gate of Infinity. Only units that did not initial deploy can Deep Strike, thus any units that start on the table can't Gate of Infinity. One must make a reserve roll to arrive from Reserve to Deep Strike. Enemy units can use Interceptor/I've Been Expecting you to shoot at said unit. Said unit that is Gate of Infinity count toward the 50% limit, thus one can't use Gate of Infinity if the limit had been reached.

 

Gate of Infinity does not require a reserve roll (as least that's how I had been playing it), so BRB could had easily add to the end of Gate of Infinity "do not make a reserve roll." and the meaning of Gate of Infinity would be the same.

 

They could certainly errata to let all terminators deepstrike what im saying is that until they do we should stick to the RAW, which unfortunately are interpreted differently by different people.

 

That's why we're asking for FAQ. It ain't that clearcut.

[Agerjag]

Here is my go: Which if you have read enough of these threads is the majority (unless all different posters are really the same person...then all bets are off)

1. Determine Warlord traits.

-2. Determine which of your DW units will arrive by DWA. Make a note when each unit would arrive on 1st and 2nd turn. These units are now earmarked for DWA and as such must enter play via Deepstrike on the appropriate turn.

3. Generate Psychic Powers.

4. Roll to see who deploys first.

- 5. During your turn for deployment, decide if any units will be held in Reserve, then deploy as normal. As your DWA earmarked units have already CHOSEN to enter play via Deepstrike, they are placed in Reserve at this time. As they have already CHOSEN to enter play via Deepstrike, they count against the 50% reserve limit. Then do Infiltrate and Scout as you would normally.

6. Try to Sieze Initiative.

-7. When it is the appropriate turn, your DWA units arrive on the table from Reserve using the Deep Strike rules to determine how to place them. You do not have to roll for them to arrive from Reserve, because DWA specifies you do not but other special rules in existing rulesets that trigger off of the Reserves and Deepstrike rules are still in effect as normal.

[dswanick]

And that is one valid interpretation, but I think it is not the best one, because it requires the introducition of new mechanics that don't play nice with existing rulesets - Here is your same format listing with my interpretation:

 

1. Determine Warlord traits.

-2. Determine which of your DW units will arrive by DWA. Make a note when each unit would arrive on 1st and 2nd turn. These units are now earmarked for DWA and as such must enter play via Deepstrike on the appropriate turn.

3. Generate Psychic Powers.

4. Roll to see who deploys first.

- 5. During your turn for deployment, decide if any units will be held in Reserve, then deploy as normal. As your DWA earmarked units must enter play via Deepstrike, they are placed in Reserve at this time. As they can not choose to enter play via normal deployment and must enter play via Deepstrike, they do not count against the 50% reserve limit and can be held in Reserve even in Missions that don't have the Reserves rule. Then do Infiltrate and Scout as you would normally.

6. Try to Sieze Initiative.

-7. When it is the appropriate turn, your DWA units arrive on the table from Reserve using the Deep Strike rules to determine how to place them. You do not have to roll for them to arrive from Reserve, because DWA specifies you do not but other special rules in existing rulesets that trigger off of the Reserves and Deepstrike rules are still in effect as normal.

 

 

The only downside (depending on your point of view) of this interpretation that I can see, is that it could allow you to a 1st turn, whole army, Deepstrike. Not entirely unfluffy for a pure DW force in my opinion, and not entirely outside the bounds of what GW might conceive of, again, in my opinion.

Well, since this is the game we're currently playing. Here's my "least rules broken", "least game breaking" interpretation (and the only way I would play it).

 

1. Determine Warlord traits.

-2. Determine which of your DW units will arrive by DWA. Make a note when each unit would arrive on 1st and 2nd turn. As this is a choice, ensure that the 50% Reserves rule is adhered to.

3. Generate Psychic Powers.

4. Roll to see who deploys first.

- 5. During your turn for deployment, decide if any other units can and will be held in Reserve, then deploy as normal. Then do Infiltrate and Scout as you would normally.

6. Try to Seize Initiative.

-7. When it is the appropriate turn, your DWA units arrive on the table from Reserve using the Deep Strike rules to determine how to place them. You do not have to roll for them to arrive from Reserve, because DWA specifies you do not but other special rules in existing rulesets that trigger off of the Reserves and Deepstrike rules are still in effect as normal.

[worloch]

There's "game changing", and then there's "game breaking". What would you call your opponent's entire army deploying in your deployment zone on turn 1? Especially with some of the most cost effective TDA in the game?

 

I'd call it a big gamble, personally. Deepstriking is a calculated risk, and while DWA does a lot to mitigate that risk, by removing the reserves roll and ensuring your forces come in when you decide, and not piecemeal, it doesn't remove the risk entirely.

 

Could it pay off? Sure. Could you have a lot of bad scatters end up with a turn of Deepstrike Mishaps? Yup.

 

It also restricts your army composition to units only with DWA - a fairly limiting factor, I hope you would agree.

 

So while it is an interesting idea, and perhaps fun (depending on your perspective, of course) thing to try out, you are incuring a risk with your whole army deployment*, and have a pretty big opportunity cost in terms of unit selection.

 

 

*I've left Belial out of the equation here, because he would only affect 1 unit, and honestly, that tactics going to be just as effective whether the whole army is Deepstriking or just Belial and friends. Just wanted to point out here I didn't forget about him.

[Castillo]

I'll once again try a final review of how I see it, step by step according to written rules.

 

Deathwing Assault: Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator Armor can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Trait, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no need to roll for reserves.

 

First sentence, requisites to use the special rule and the fact you can chose to use.

 

Second sentence, timeline on when that choice is made and partly told to your opponent, also a secret choice that will affect later. Up to here we don't have any info on what the rule does, we only know when we chose to use. From the writing I clearly understand that a number of units selected from the elegible ones will do the Deathwing assault on the chosen turn. The timing as it has been mentioned before is important and clearly defines this as happening before the Deploy Forces step (page 122) because otherwise if you were deploying on second place a whole army would deploy before you chose your DWA clearly contradicting the "inmediately after" part of the sentence.

 

Third sentence, this actually tell us how units selected for DWA are affected, so now we know those units will enter via DS at the start of the chosen turn and that no reserve rolls will be necessary. This gives three facts, units will enter via DS, on the given turn, without rolling reserves. Let's note also that we are choosing to enter via deepstrike but choosing to use a special rule called DWA, entering by DS is a consequence of such rule, not the choice we make. Also let's note that at no point is it saying units go into reserve or units don't go into reserve

 

Summarizing until now, before the Deploy forces step we have free numbers of units from the ones elegible (we are given a criteria on which units can be chosen but we are not given any about how many of those we can chose)

 

Then we arrive at our Deploy Forces step. Here is when you are told to deploy your army save the infiltrators and reserves which must be declared at this point. (pag 122, 124 on reserves)

 

The only thing we know about the DWA units is that they will enter via DS. The DWA has not said that they go into reserves or not. So we turn to the second paragraph (ignoring fluff and epigraph) on page 36. This paragraph talks about units that must arrive by DS. At this point, the only thing the DWA rule has done is make us chose the units, chose a turn at told us that those units will arrive by DS. We have not chosen to DS we have chosen to DWA, the effect of that rule is that those unit will DS. So they would fall into that second paragraph and will have to start in reserves and will not count towards the 50%.

 

As you see if you take only what is written in the rule without trying to make any assumptions all the pieces fall into place. The only possible point would we arguing that you chose to use the DWA rule so they would count as "units that must arrive by DS" but the fact that there is a choice to make does not preclude the fact that once you select those units (before the point were deployment methods have any bearing in the battle) you get units that must arrive by DS. You could stubbornly maintain that the choice nullifies the "must" in the rule but that is the most complex proposition (then are they in reserve? if not where are they, if yes do they count for 50%? if yes what happens if I choose to use DWA with my whole army (no limits in the rule) do I get to deploy units that later will arrive by DS?) so clearly the razor goes in favor of the must.

[Agerjag]

@ Worloch You can still take 1 unit of RW bikes for teleport homer pretty cheap. You would be forced to take more potentially diluting the brokenness if you had to abide by 50%.

 

@ Castillo, started out well and then diverged badly. Check out dakka dakka and warseer if youd like more ways of explaining why it counts towards the 50% this thread is getting tired with the same people saying the same things. If none of those can change your mind then it really wont matter what I say as Ive made my case as have others. To give it a shot anyhow :D : It never says that you MUST be placed in reserve ANYWHERE in the DWA or Deepstrike rules that it uses. Flyers and Drop pods(and drop pod equivalents) are the only places this comes into effect. When you get to that step you have chosen to be in reserve the only time that rule applies is when you CANNOT be deployed through other means. I cannot think of a single case where you MUST be placed in reserve units can be placed in any other way. We can place terminators on the board normally. We choose to deepstrike via DWA instead.

[Castillo]

@ Worloch You can still take 1 unit of RW bikes for teleport homer pretty cheap. You would be forced to take more potentially diluting the brokenness if you had to abide by 50%.

@ Castillo, started out well and then diverged badly. Check out dakka dakka and warseer if youd like more ways of explaining why it counts towards the 50% this thread is getting tired with the same people saying the same things. If none of those can change your mind then it really wont matter what I say as Ive made my case as have others. To give it a shot anyhow : It never says that you MUST be placed in reserve ANYWHERE in the DWA or Deepstrike rules that it uses. Flyers and Drop pods(and drop pod equivalents) are the only places this comes into effect. When you get to that step you have chosen to be in reserve the only time that rule applies is when you CANNOT be deployed through other means. I cannot think of a single case where you MUST be placed in reserve units can be placed in any other way. We can place terminators on the board normally. We choose to deepstrike via DWA instead.

We don't choose to DS, we choose to DWA, as consequence of that we enter via DS. A rule tells us we enter via DS, no checking first paragraph to see if we comply with requirements the rule forces us to enter that way if we choose to use it, and the requirements to use it are clearly defined in the first sentence. I have seen the thread in warseer and I don't see any simpler, consistent explanation than the one outlined, I'll check Dakka, but all of the other explanations have to use more assumptions on not written interactions between the rules.

[CheezeFezt]

@ Worloch You can still take 1 unit of RW bikes for teleport homer pretty cheap. You would be forced to take more potentially diluting the brokenness if you had to abide by 50%.

@ Castillo, started out well and then diverged badly. Check out dakka dakka and warseer if youd like more ways of explaining why it counts towards the 50% this thread is getting tired with the same people saying the same things. If none of those can change your mind then it really wont matter what I say as Ive made my case as have others. To give it a shot anyhow : It never says that you MUST be placed in reserve ANYWHERE in the DWA or Deepstrike rules that it uses. Flyers and Drop pods(and drop pod equivalents) are the only places this comes into effect. When you get to that step you have chosen to be in reserve the only time that rule applies is when you CANNOT be deployed through other means. I cannot think of a single case where you MUST be placed in reserve units can be placed in any other way. We can place terminators on the board normally. We choose to deepstrike via DWA instead.

We don't choose to DS, we choose to DWA, as consequence of that we enter via DS. A rule tells us we enter via DS, no checking first paragraph to see if we comply with requirements the rule forces us to enter that way if we choose to use it, and the requirements to use it are clearly defined in the first sentence. I have seen the thread in warseer and I don't see any simpler, consistent explanation than the one outlined, I'll check Dakka, but all of the other explanations have to use more assumptions on not written interactions between the rules.

The argument I had seen on warseer & dakka is the same one here

* there's only 2 classes. Deployed, if not deployed then in reserve (been beaten to death no such rules)

* when one declare DWA, one put that unit into Reserve because DWA arrive vi Deep Strike, and any unit arriving via Deep Strike must do so from Reserve, thus DWA must be put into Reserve.

I'll address the last one. DWA definitely does not say put unit in Reserve. Only thing DWA say is unit arrives via Deep Strike. In other word, there had been no decision made with regard to deployment at the DWA declaration. Requirements of DWA are

1) units has DWA special rule (and all termies)

2) you tell your opponents which which units are DWA

3) make a secret note of 1st or 2nd turn arrival

4) said units arrive via Deep Strike

I'll repeat again, there are no deployment at the DWA declaration. Just as there are no restriction on how many units can be declared DWA. The reserve 50% limit doesn't kick in since you're not deploying yet. Anyone who try to argue that deployment occurred at this step, please quote the rule that show deployment of DWA occurred at this point.

At the deployment step, all DWA must arrives by Deep Strike, thus gaining the exemption that any units that must arrive by Deep Strike are ignored for the 50% limit.

The argument that DWA is the same as a unit is choosing to Deep Strike is incorrect because there are no such rule that one declare a unit is Deep Strike.The actual mechanic is one choose not to deploy that unit, that choice trigger a 2nd choice, which is how does that unit arrives (via Deep Strike or via hoofing).

Phrase another way, I choose to put my Deathwing Terminator in Reserve, and then I invoke its Deep Strike ability to arrive via Deep Strike.

For the DWA, there are no choice with regard to Reserve. At declaration, I do not immediately put unit into Reserve. Nadda. All the argument is see on warseer & dakka is DWA arrives from reserve, thus you must have voluntarily put them into Reserve. But there are no such provision in the DWA.

[Harleqvin]

Lost the will to live several posts back... Has anyone emailed GW with this question yet?

 

G

 

I actually called them. The answer was shortened a tiny bit. "We are split on how it works here ourselves and to the point of all the typos/misprints/clarification in C:DA you brought up our C:DA kit has all the same issues. You may want to give our FAQ department an email. Here is the email. Do you have a pen?"

 

I then also shortly after that sent an email. No response yet.

 

 

Also for people wondering where it says anything about reserve for the DW from DWA. It's under the rule for Deep Strike. Which says they come from reserve. and I have stated why this is in my post stating why. Here is that post again.

 

Deathwing Assault: Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator Armor can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Trait, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no need to roll for reserves.

 

All these units are being chosen before the Deploy Forces section that happens after choosing Determine Warlord Trait section. Which the deploy section is when you choose who is being held in reserve. Also in the BGB it states that models who arrive by Deep Strike do so from Reserve. Also note that TDA (Terminator Armor) has the special rule Deep Strike.

 

Yes the DW are in reserve but they are not being chosen to be in Reserve in the normal way. They are being forced to Deploy by Deep Strike, Which if you arrive from Deep Strike you arrive from Reserve.

 

The Deathwing units that are being put into Deathwing Assault are being done so before the normal time for placing models into Reserve, as to the Reserve Special mission rules, which is in the Deploy Forces section after Determine Warlord Trait.

 

Because of this distinction that says Deathwing Assault is done Immediately after Determine Warlord Trait, it is forcing them to be held in reserve. Keep in mind this is only the Units that are doing the Deathwing Assault.

 

I am done now with this thread and happily await an FAQ from GW.

 

So furthering:

Yes, models doing Deathwing Assault are coming from Reserve because they are Deep Striking.

No. Models doing the Deathwing Assault are not counted for 50% allowed Reserves because they are being forced to be in Reserve before the Reserves rule happens in the Deploy Forces Section when Reserves are normally done. This is because it happens Immediately after Determine Warlord trait section which would then be before Deploy Forces section.

 

Deployment:

Determine Warlord Traits (determine warlord trait section is done before deploy forces as a trait can change how one deploys.)

DWA

Deploy forces (Reserves done in here at beginning)

 

And even if you go with that Reserves special mission rule(for 50%) happens at the same time as DWA. That would then mean Two rules are conflicting. Codex would then Trump BGB. Which would mean that the DWA is still done before Reserve special mission rule (50%)

[IndigoJack]

Lost the will to live several posts back... Has anyone emailed GW with this question yet?

 

G

 

I actually called them. The answer was shortened a tiny bit. "We are split on how it works here ourselves and to the point of all the typos/misprints/clarification in C:DA you brought up our C:DA kit has all the same issues. You may want to give our FAQ department an email. Here is the email. Do you have a pen?"

 

I then also shortly after that sent an email. No response yet.

 

 

Also for people wondering where it says anything about reserve for the DW from DWA. It's under the rule for Deep Strike. Which says they come from reserve. and I have stated why this is in my post stating why. Here is that post again.

 

Deathwing Assault: Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator Armor can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Trait, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no need to roll for reserves.

 

All these units are being chosen before the Deploy Forces section that happens after choosing Determine Warlord Trait section. Which the deploy section is when you choose who is being held in reserve. Also in the BGB it states that models who arrive by Deep Strike do so from Reserve. Also note that TDA (Terminator Armor) has the special rule Deep Strike.

 

Yes the DW are in reserve but they are not being chosen to be in Reserve in the normal way. They are being forced to Deploy by Deep Strike, Which if you arrive from Deep Strike you arrive from Reserve.

 

The Deathwing units that are being put into Deathwing Assault are being done so before the normal time for placing models into Reserve, as to the Reserve Special mission rules, which is in the Deploy Forces section after Determine Warlord Trait.

 

Because of this distinction that says Deathwing Assault is done Immediately after Determine Warlord Trait, it is forcing them to be held in reserve. Keep in mind this is only the Units that are doing the Deathwing Assault.

 

I am done now with this thread and happily await an FAQ from GW.

 

So furthering:

Yes, models doing Deathwing Assault are coming from Reserve because they are Deep Striking.

No. Models doing the Deathwing Assault are not counted for 50% allowed Reserves because they are being forced to be in Reserve before the Reserves rule happens in the Deploy Forces Section when Reserves are normally done. This is because it happens Immediately after Determine Warlord trait section which would then be before Deploy Forces section.

 

Deployment:

Determine Warlord Traits (determine warlord trait section is done before deploy forces as a trait can change how one deploys.)

DWA

Deploy forces (Reserves done in here at beginning)

 

And even if you go with that Reserves special mission rule(for 50%) happens at the same time as DWA. That would then mean Two rules are conflicting. Codex would then Trump BGB. Which would mean that the DWA is still done before Reserve special mission rule (50%)

 

This is the only argument against the 50% rule that makes sense (Yes, I know it was brought up several pages back). While I still feel like they do count towards the 50% and I think GW will rule it that way, there's enough ambiguity that it could go the other way. This is very similar to the necron transport issue, in that order of operations is important in determining how things work out.

 

In the meantime, let's drop this, and all agree to disagree.

[BigGumbo]

While I agree that being DWA units do go into reserve Im not sure you can make a statement like, choose to deathwing assault and then forced to deepstrike. It is a choice, though this will need to have some clarification as I can see it both ways. When DWA, I personally believe that you are choosing to deep strike.

 

You can also choose to place a tactical squa in a Drop Pod, and then the tactical squad no longer counts toward the 50% limit because it then must start the game in reserve because of the Drop Pod you chose to put it in.

Ignoring the fact that this is an explicit rules/FAQ exception anyway, so not open to interpretation, it seems to me to be a natural assumption that a "dedicated" transport would, as a default, be deployed with its unit embarked and that you have to make a conscious choice not to embark the squad. The DT can't be used by any other unit to enter the game and why would you buy a transport for a unit, which you were going to keep in reserve, and not make use of it as a default?

 

I think it's more of a grey area for non dedicated transports, which is why the FAQ was needed, but I accept that we're in marginal territory here.

[shabbadoo]

Please see my Gates of Infinity and Skies of Blood reasoning in my "this is how I think it works" post, step 7. Deep Striking can be evoked by special rules to place models on the table that aren't coming from Reserves.

You (and others) apparently fail to see (or simply refuse do acknowledge it because it obliterates your supposed point) that models are not being put into play from an unknown, non-reserves status by these powers, but that these powers are affecting models *already in play* (such that they were either never were in Reserves or had previously entered play from Reserves) and putting them into play elsehere using aspects of (not the entirety of) the Deepstrike rules. There is no "DWA status" (otherwise shortly forever to be known as "figure case containment" status), and regardless of whether the rule is written clearly enough for a n00b not to know this, you (and others) surely must.

There are only two states for models in the game:

1. Being on the game table, thus *in play*

2. Not on the game table, thus *in Reserve*.

If models do not start the game on the table then they are in Reserve, unless they are in a transport that is in play and the models really are effectively *in play*, even though models may not physically be there (yes, I felt the need to include this for any smartasses out there; you are welcome smartasses. )

If models are allowed to leave the field of play and re-enter play on the player's next turn, then they are in state of *Ongoing Reserves* until they arrive back in play (e.g. Fliers, etc.).

And there are some abilities/powers that allow models to be immediately removed from play and immediately be put back into play, i.e. the models are never actually in Reserves because they never wait around to re-enter play, at all. The "Gate of Infinity" and "Ere We Go!" psychic powers are examples of this. "Skies of Blood" is only comparable to either of these powers in that works on a unit that is in already play, because, no, you cannot "Skies of Blood" a unit into play from Reserves, and no, you cannot "Skies of Blood" a unit into play from a Storm Talon that has Deepstriked that turn. What "Skies of Blood" actually is is an airborne version of simple disembarking, such that it will be more inaccurate/dangerous than simply stepping out of the exit of a tank transport, and so the scatter/mishap rules aspects of Deepstrike are used, but no other aspect of those rules are used. That is called using a rule that is already there to keep things simple for the players. There is no ulterior meaning or intention there at all. The main point with "Skies of Blood" is that the unit is not using aspects of the Deepstrike rules to to enter play- the unit is using aspects of the Deepstrike rules to disembark. Pretty glaring point there, that difference between disembarking from a vehicle that is already in play, and entering play from Reserves. How anyone can fail to note these things, I don't know.

Is the grand scheme of the core rules somehow unapparent? Do we not have enough examples of how different types of units with similar, but different, rules operate within the grand scheme of the 6E rules? I am not asking for any sort of "But if you nearly twist your head off looking at things sideways and interpret things from that angle, in the most obtuse of ways the game rules, in their entirety, could be seen to paint the picture that "figure case containment" is an actual status for models in the game..." answer.

What I am looking for is either:

"Yes, that is the gist of the entirety of the rules, and DWA is intended to fit into these more than obvious aspects of the entirety of the rules system."

...or:

"No, DWA is something additional to the entirety of rules- they just apparently failed to include the entire paragraph detailing how the DWA rule works in relation to the entirety of the rules."

I think that, based on all other rules evidence we have, I already know which of the above answers is the right one, and I am betting that all of you already know too. Let's all take for granted that the wording of the DWA rule is... we'll be extremely generous and say "suspect", so everyone just put down the "But I just want to argue just to argue!" stick that the horse has already been beaten to death with multiple times, and state how we think things are intended to work within the grand scheme of the core rules.

(Wow! I only had to edit two mistakes! That's pretty dang good for me! )

[Castillo]

There are only two states for models in the game:

 

1. Being on the game table, thus *in play*

 

2. Not on the game table, thus *in Reserve*.

Of course, as the BRB defines those two states as the only possible state for models in page... oh wait... it doesn't say that anywhere :o

[shabbadoo]

No duh, most clever one, but, unlike you apparently, I can wrap my mind around the fact that there really are only two states for models in the game rules, whether it says outright "There are two states for models in the game rules.", or not. I am going to make a bit of leap here and assume that, with extreme effort, you can too. This may be one of those Rob Schneider "You kan do eet!" moments that appears in every Adam Sandler movie. Try reading my post again, and make me proud Happy Gilmore/Zohan/Billy Madison/Mr. Deeds/etc. You kan do eet!

[riddles]

I know my arguments have been stated on the warseer thread (Ericthegreen) and I am thankful that this thread has not descended into the same mire.

 

This absolutely 100% needs a FAQ.

 

Cheezefezt and Harleqvin have posted the logical RAW readings to justify DWA units not counting towards the reserve limit. For anyone in doubt (though they both put it better than I can);

- You choose to DWA before the deployment sub phase starts - even before you roll to see who deploys first.

- When the deployment phase starts, you choose which units deploy and which go into reserve. However, because DWA units are forced into reserve because of the deep strike rules, they don't count towards the 50% rule.

 

It is ONLY the timing of the use of DWA which causes the issue. If you were arguing intent, you could say Vetock put the timing thing in for a precise reason. But we're not arguing intent here.

 

I can also happily accept the arguments that you chose to use DWA, therefore they count towards the reserve limit.

 

Realistically, this isn't going to be an issue unless you're the sort of guy that wants to plonk down 30 terminators in 1750 points (or like me, have only 4 units on the board and want to deep strike 5 untis and belial. stupid ICs counting as a unit in reserve *grumble*).

 

Both readings can be correct, which is a case of bad rules writing. I fully expect it to be addressed in the FAQ.

 

On an OT note, first post in 6 months. It's good to be back :)

[BigGumbo]

@shabbadoo

 

Good post, thanks.

 

(Castillo: thanks for illustrating precisely the kind of contortion shabba was talking about, too. Well played.)

[BigGumbo]

@CheezeFezt

 

Your 12.44am post explains your point about DWA not counting for 50% reserve limits much more clearly than those in our earlier exchange. I can now see where you're coming from, although I still disagree with your conclusion.

[Castillo]

No duh, most clever one, but, unlike you apparently, I can wrap my mind around the fact that there really are only two states for models in the game rules, whether it says outright "There are two states for models in the game rules.", or not. I am going to make a bit of leap here and assume that, with extreme effort, you can too. This may be one of those Rob Schneider "You kan do eet!" moments that appears in every Adam Sandler movie. Try reading my post again, and make me proud Happy Gilmore/Zohan/Billy Madison/Mr. Deeds/etc. You kan do eet!

That is the thing, your explanation is based on "I wrap my mind around this and that" whereas mine (you can look it up) uses actual rules as they are written trying not to have to suppose unwritten rules as you do.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

9 pages of circylar arguments is enough to convince that no side will convince the other that their opinion is right and others are wrong. Agree to disagree, talk to your gaming groups about this and move on.