Kinda disappointed.

[Bryan Blaire]

The Assault Squad Sgt lost access only to the Combat Shield, but gained access to the storm bolter, all flavors of combi-weapon, a single lightning claw, pair of lightning claws, and a thunder hammer. The squad gained access to flamers for two men starting at five guys right away and got cheaper. While they definitely aren't my first choice for the FA slot, they certainly aren't losers or pathetic. Meltas were unlikely to ever make their way to our assault squads, I don't think the bolters thing would ever really gain traction, and while having an invulnerable save is nice, it really isn't that high quality a one where I'm mourning its loss much.

[Gillyfish]

I haven't got my grubby little paws on the Codex just yet (should have it this evening), but I don't think an Assault squad is useless, especially if you're wanting to make an army which really gets into an opponent's face. Consider the fact that we can have bikes, Terminators dropping into enemy lines, scouts to set up forward and then assault squads to add numbers and protect the flanks of your advance. A Dark Angels army sounds like it might be a real handful for an opponent to deal with as they be into enemy lines from Turn 1 and certainly by Turn 2. We may not be a cc oriented chapter, but we now have far more options there and assault marines will be good for prising enemy units from cover.

[Lucien Eilam]

Why no ”Terror Sight”?

 

Terrorsight wasn't a psychic power originally, it was a vision filter built into the helmet. Gav Thorpe made it up as a spin on terahertz imaging.

 

The psychic power in the Heresy novels was said to be "very rare" among the Dark Angels anyway.

 

The Dark Angels are a Codex Chapter with a couple of unique formations, so of course they've focussed on those formations. Special types of jump unit are the Blood Angels' thing. And as a rule, wearing robes with a jet engine strapped to your back seems unwise, although I suppose it would have a certain shock and awe value the first time you switched it on.

[Plastic Rat]

. IMO, assault marines never really had a place in DA armies

 

Really? Well these guys would beg to differ.

 

[Onisuzume]

Novel, Angels of Darkness.

Boreas and co fight as an assault-squad-esque unit early on in the book.

[Plastic Rat]

Novel, Angels of Darkness.

Boreas and co fight as an assault-squad-esque unit early on in the book.

 

Point being that Assault Squad actions have long been a part of Dark Angels history and should not be discounted. I don't like the idea of them receiving options that are any more limited than standard marines, which is exactly what they are. Still would like to know why combat shields are out as an option. I have one modeled and would love to know why Mr Vetock thought this is no longer acceptable.

[Kol Saresk]

I think what it comes down to is that the tabletop focus for the Dark Angels is the Hunt for the Fallen, which means Deathwing and Ravenwing get the bigger focus because they are the ones who know of the Hunt, not Companies 3-10(Company Masters, Chaplains and Librarians excluded). As a result, for the tabletop purposes, everything else sort of takes a backseat. As a result, everything is going to be on par or sub-par to C:SM, although from what I am hearing, C:DA still has quite a bit that tops C:SM, such as 5-man squads with Heavy Weapons.

[Brother Darklight]

Aren't the Tacs and Devastators like 2 points per Marine cheaper than the Codex: SM ones? I'd say that makes Greenwing quite viable. Reading it over the weekend, I gotta say this a rather dandy Codex. Tons of viability in your builds; Deathwing/Ravenwing/Greenwing dedication OR mixing will both work.

 

And to be fair, they focus on the DW/RW because those are what make the DA the DA. Blood Angels have their jump pack spam, Space Puppies have their HQ spam and... well... puppies! The Dark Angels can build Terminator-only and Attack Bike-only armies if they so choose. And if they do, it'd be nice to not have a bunch of the same unit, right? Now a Ravenwing army has various speeders and biker units, all with their own strengths, weapon choices, upgrades, Etc.. But that doesn't mean Greenwing are neglected.

[Onisuzume]

Novel, Angels of Darkness.

Boreas and co fight as an assault-squad-esque unit early on in the book.

 

Point being that Assault Squad actions have long been a part of Dark Angels history and should not be discounted. I don't like the idea of them receiving options that are any more limited than standard marines, which is exactly what they are. Still would like to know why combat shields are out as an option. I have one modeled and would love to know why Mr Vetock thought this is no longer acceptable.

Heck, isn't that even exactly how we got our legion's name in the first place?

Assault marines descending with jump packs reminding Luthor (iirc) of mythological dark angels of Caliban?

[BigGumbo]

Aren't the Tacs and Devastators like 2 points per Marine cheaper than the Codex: SM ones? I'd say that makes Greenwing quite viable. Reading it over the weekend, I gotta say this a rather dandy Codex. Tons of viability in your builds; Deathwing/Ravenwing/Greenwing dedication OR mixing will both work.

 

Yep. Interestingly, though, the "standard" 10-man tactical loadout of missile launcher and flamer is exactly the same cost for us as for vanilla marines if you include the DA Vet Sarge upgrade so that the stat lines are comparable. Other special weapons are 5pts more expensive for us than for vanillas, so the only place for variation in total points for a 10 man squad is going to be on heavy weapon costs. Although our tactical chaps are cheaper, we still have to buy the heavy/special weapons for them. I'm not sure whether this is exactly the same for devastator squads but I think our weapon options are more expensive, which would tend to offset the lower points per marine.

 

One aspect of the new tactical squads that really pleases me is the option to take a heavy weapon instead of a special weapon below 10 man squad size - I might well make quite a lot of use of that...

[elphilo]

Novel, Angels of Darkness.

Boreas and co fight as an assault-squad-esque unit early on in the book.

 

Point being that Assault Squad actions have long been a part of Dark Angels history and should not be discounted. I don't like the idea of them receiving options that are any more limited than standard marines, which is exactly what they are. Still would like to know why combat shields are out as an option. I have one modeled and would love to know why Mr Vetock thought this is no longer acceptable.

 

Just me thinking out loud. But maybe in the new Space Marine codex their assault marines won't have access to Storm Shields or Combat Shields? I'm probably wrong here because IIRC the assault marine box comes with a combat shield, but you never know.

[Brother Landrain]

Aren't the Tacs and Devastators like 2 points per Marine cheaper than the Codex: SM ones? I'd say that makes Greenwing quite viable. Reading it over the weekend, I gotta say this a rather dandy Codex. Tons of viability in your builds; Deathwing/Ravenwing/Greenwing dedication OR mixing will both work.

 

Yep. Interestingly, though, the "standard" 10-man tactical loadout of missile launcher and flamer is exactly the same cost for us as for vanilla marines if you include the DA Vet Sarge upgrade so that the stat lines are comparable. Other special weapons are 5pts more expensive for us than for vanillas, so the only place for variation in total points for a 10 man squad is going to be on heavy weapon costs. Although our tactical chaps are cheaper, we still have to buy the heavy/special weapons for them. I'm not sure whether this is exactly the same for devastator squads but I think our weapon options are more expensive, which would tend to offset the lower points per marine.

 

One aspect of the new tactical squads that really pleases me is the option to take a heavy weapon instead of a special weapon below 10 man squad size - I might well make quite a lot of use of that...

 

Yes, I like that option... Because of that is why I think we do not get any 'free' upgrades.

I just wish we had the option to take 2 spec or 2 heavy weapons in a 10 man squad.

That and storm bolters are my only big Tactical wish list items not included..

[Bryan Blaire]

To be honest, I think some of the limitations we are seeing are the result of the way they did the "Armory" page, instead of having all the options built into the Army List entry of the unit itself. For example, the Assault Squad Sergeant probably should have had access to the Combat Shield, but because Combat Shield is in Special Issue Wargear along side the Conversion Field, Displacer Field, Infravisor or Power Field, etc, and seeing as they didn't want to give any Sergeant access to this wargear, exclusion from the latter gear necessarily precluded his use of the former as well (Combat Shield) unless they wanted to load the list down with additional foot notes. I feel they still could have allowed for this as a separate option in the unit entry, but it almost appears as though they didn't want to do that at all unless it was for an item that was exclusive to the unit, such as the Siege Shield for the Vindicator or the Locator Beacon for the Drop Pod.

 

I am hoping for a Errata'd Armory for the book, honestly, with adjustments to the lists or Errata'd unit options to allow for some of these allowable configurations and additions.

[Gul Tekar]

I have one modeled and would love to know why Mr Vetock thought this is no longer acceptable.

 

I imagine it is because he knew that you had one and has a personal vendetta against you, which he slipped into the codex released deliberately to screw you (not us, specifically you) over.

I know that you don't intend it like that, but the rhetoric people use in these discussions makes it sound like they believe they're being personally persecuted by GW and the individual codex writers.

 

I personally think it's very good that we have these slight nerfs because it keeps us different. Unless we want all space marines to be rolled into one codex (which I know some xenos players would love), we can't all have the best of everything. This is why I think it's good for us to have more limited or no access to the things that make other codices special (eg. jump units for BA, wolves/animals for SW, hordes for BT, etc.) That's also why I think our new "Grim Resolve" is a very good thing: its a slight nerf (certainly compared to Combat Tactics), but our Codex would be really boring if we were flawless. Isn't that perception of flawlessness what makes people hate the Ultramarines?

 

So, I'm really happy with our Codex and I hope that we never get a perfect codex, because then we'd lose what makes us special (namely our ability to soldier on against overwhelming odds).

 

EDIT: I suppose that means that I'm kinda disappointed, and I'd rather have it no other way.

[*Furyou Miko]

Aren't the Tacs and Devastators like 2 points per Marine cheaper than the Codex: SM ones? I'd say that makes Greenwing quite viable. Reading it over the weekend, I gotta say this a rather dandy Codex. Tons of viability in your builds; Deathwing/Ravenwing/Greenwing dedication OR mixing will both work.

 

Yep. Interestingly, though, the "standard" 10-man tactical loadout of missile launcher and flamer is exactly the same cost for us as for vanilla marines if you include the DA Vet Sarge upgrade so that the stat lines are comparable. Other special weapons are 5pts more expensive for us than for vanillas, so the only place for variation in total points for a 10 man squad is going to be on heavy weapon costs. Although our tactical chaps are cheaper, we still have to buy the heavy/special weapons for them. I'm not sure whether this is exactly the same for devastator squads but I think our weapon options are more expensive, which would tend to offset the lower points per marine.

 

One aspect of the new tactical squads that really pleases me is the option to take a heavy weapon instead of a special weapon below 10 man squad size - I might well make quite a lot of use of that...

 

Yes, I like that option... Because of that is why I think we do not get any 'free' upgrades.

I just wish we had the option to take 2 spec or 2 heavy weapons in a 10 man squad.

That and storm bolters are my only big Tactical wish list items not included..

 

So, basically, you want to be Battle Sisters?

 

:D I never thought I'd see the day!

[Phoebus]

Is it inappropriate or even illegal to combine "Allies" and "Counts As" to get the Assault Squads you feel the Dark Angels deserve from a different Codex (e.g., Space Marines or Blood Angels)?

[Cactus]

Is it inappropriate or even illegal to combine "Allies" and "Counts As" to get the Assault Squads you feel the Dark Angels deserve from a different Codex (e.g., Space Marines or Blood Angels)?

 

Not at all. I believe the makers of the game encourage it.

 

There's a big fuzzy grey area where it's possible to confuse your opponent as to which unit is which or what they're equipped with but that topic deserves (and has had plenty of) discussion elsewhere. As long as different unit types look different from each other you're probably ok.

[Daddywarcrimes]

Something else to consider about Assault Marines. They can trade their jump packs for a free Drop Pod, so for 105 points, you can put 2 flamers and a combi-flamer right in your opponent's face on Turn 1 with no risk of Mishapping or scattering out of range. For 115, it can even have a Locator Beacon to bring your Deathwing Knights and Deathwing down on next turn.

[Brother Landrain]

Aren't the Tacs and Devastators like 2 points per Marine cheaper than the Codex: SM ones? I'd say that makes Greenwing quite viable. Reading it over the weekend, I gotta say this a rather dandy Codex. Tons of viability in your builds; Deathwing/Ravenwing/Greenwing dedication OR mixing will both work.

Yep. Interestingly, though, the "standard" 10-man tactical loadout of missile launcher and flamer is exactly the same cost for us as for vanilla marines if you include the DA Vet Sarge upgrade so that the stat lines are comparable. Other special weapons are 5pts more expensive for us than for vanillas, so the only place for variation in total points for a 10 man squad is going to be on heavy weapon costs. Although our tactical chaps are cheaper, we still have to buy the heavy/special weapons for them. I'm not sure whether this is exactly the same for devastator squads but I think our weapon options are more expensive, which would tend to offset the lower points per marine.

One aspect of the new tactical squads that really pleases me is the option to take a heavy weapon instead of a special weapon below 10 man squad size - I might well make quite a lot of use of that...

Yes, I like that option... Because of that is why I think we do not get any 'free' upgrades.

I just wish we had the option to take 2 spec or 2 heavy weapons in a 10 man squad.

That and storm bolters are my only big Tactical wish list items not included..

So, basically, you want to be Battle Sisters?

I never thought I'd see the day!

Not at all.. its called Tactical Flexibility... I also would like to have option of 4 spec weapons in a Dev unit... I guess that would mean I want to be an IG Veteran unit..

[Avon Rekaes]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Tac Sergeant can take that stormbolter you're looking for.

[publius]

I have to agree with everyone saying that the codex is in fact quite awesome, even as someone who plays Greenwing. The Dark Angels have always been described as a codex-compliant on the surface, but quite different "beneath the waters", and this is something the new codex manages to capture. The core of a greenwing army is still Tactical/Assault/Devastator marines, but these are all cheaper from the more recent codex, which is a HUGE plus. Anyone who has tried to make a codex under the 2007 version has probably experienced the frustration for paying 20-30 points more than other Space Marines for a squad that is significantly less flexible.

 

On top of that, there are small changes (3rd edition stubbornness is back!), combined with all of the support options for Greenwing. Notice how pretty much all of the HQs have small ways to boost your greenwing, such as special rules, wargear (i.e. standards), psychic powers (most SM players would love to have divination or a level 2 librarian for 100 points). Plus those of you who hate monstrous creatures running through your tactical squad don't have to worry anymore since any of our HQs can take monster squisher weapons or things that grant entire squads invulnerable saves.

 

Since I got the codex I have been dreaming up all sorts of Greenwing-only and Greenwing/Deathwing or Greenwing/Ravenwing, or rainbow-colored combinations and haven't run out of options! There are some really awesome times coming up for our chapter.

[Onisuzume]

Aren't the Tacs and Devastators like 2 points per Marine cheaper than the Codex: SM ones? I'd say that makes Greenwing quite viable. Reading it over the weekend, I gotta say this a rather dandy Codex. Tons of viability in your builds; Deathwing/Ravenwing/Greenwing dedication OR mixing will both work.

Yep. Interestingly, though, the "standard" 10-man tactical loadout of missile launcher and flamer is exactly the same cost for us as for vanilla marines if you include the DA Vet Sarge upgrade so that the stat lines are comparable. Other special weapons are 5pts more expensive for us than for vanillas, so the only place for variation in total points for a 10 man squad is going to be on heavy weapon costs. Although our tactical chaps are cheaper, we still have to buy the heavy/special weapons for them. I'm not sure whether this is exactly the same for devastator squads but I think our weapon options are more expensive, which would tend to offset the lower points per marine.

One aspect of the new tactical squads that really pleases me is the option to take a heavy weapon instead of a special weapon below 10 man squad size - I might well make quite a lot of use of that...

Yes, I like that option... Because of that is why I think we do not get any 'free' upgrades.

I just wish we had the option to take 2 spec or 2 heavy weapons in a 10 man squad.

That and storm bolters are my only big Tactical wish list items not included..

So, basically, you want to be Battle Sisters?

I never thought I'd see the day!

Not at all.. its called Tactical Flexibility... I also would like to have option of 4 spec weapons in a Dev unit... I guess that would mean I want to be an IG Veteran unit..

Exactly.

Same reason I want bolters on my assault squads, and autocannons on my devastators.

[Phoebus]

Random thought:

 

What was the point of the baseline Sergeant being a non-Veteran, and thus sub-par to any other Sergeant from any other power armour-based Codex?

 

By contrast, would it not have been better to instead raise the cost of the Tactical Squad by 10 pts (and in the process make every Sergeant a Veteran Sergeant as they've always been) and have the option to upgrade the Veteran Sergeant to a member of the Inner Circle? This would actually go nicely with fluff ranging from "Angels of Darkness" to "Ravenwing" - there has long been a tradition of members of the Inner Circle being emplaced in the "conventional" units of the Dark Angels Chapter.

 

Even better, this would tie in nicely with the Hunt for the Fallen scenario shown in the last White Dwarf. Except, instead of your opponent letting you know one of his characters was a Fallen, you let him know that you have a secret member of the Inner Circle who would therefore be treated as Fearless and having the Preferred Enemy (Chaos Space Marine) rules.

[Ronin_eX]

Random thought:

 

What was the point of the baseline Sergeant being a non-Veteran, and thus sub-par to any other Sergeant from any other power armour-based Codex?

 

By contrast, would it not have been better to instead raise the cost of the Tactical Squad by 10 pts (and in the process make every Sergeant a Veteran Sergeant as they've always been) and have the option to upgrade the Veteran Sergeant to a member of the Inner Circle? This would actually go nicely with fluff ranging from "Angels of Darkness" to "Ravenwing" - there has long been a tradition of members of the Inner Circle being emplaced in the "conventional" units of the Dark Angels Chapter.

 

Even better, this would tie in nicely with the Hunt for the Fallen scenario shown in the last White Dwarf. Except, instead of your opponent letting you know one of his characters was a Fallen, you let him know that you have a secret member of the Inner Circle who would therefore be treated as Fearless and having the Preferred Enemy (Chaos Space Marine) rules.

 

It's terribly more efficient this way. Consider things like Devastator Squads or shooty Tac Squads. Paying extra for an additional attack is usually not terribly useful. But the 10 points saved on the Vet. can easily go toward more weapons. You can still grab the Vet. and you will cost the exact same as a normal squad of marines, but now you don't have to. It's even more useful now that we can have heavy weapons at minimum-size. Why waste 10 points on a Vet. when the 10 could go toward flak missiles on that missile launcher.

 

If the squad was going to get assaulted by a dedicated unit, the extra attack was unlikely to have helped. So this leaves us to upgrade to Veteran sergeants when we are fielding CQB units where we actually want a sergeant tooled to close combat.

 

As for having Sergeants that were part of the Inner Circle, I think GW wanted to move away from that and not overly mix Inner Circle units in to the nomral battle companies. They wanted to leave that for ICs in high command positions. Non-command veterans of the Inner Circle are Deathwing and Deathwing always deploy to the field in Terminator Armour. GW could have gone the 3rd Edition route or stuck to the 2nd/4th Edition route; they took the latter.

 

Personally I think going back to more customizable and efficient squads was the way to go. This is how things worked back in 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition (and early 4th though I wasn't active at that time). So it is hardly like permanent veteran sergeants is a new thing. Really, it is just going back to how it originally was. And until the other chapters get updated we get the upside of being able to shave ten points off of squads that don't need Ld 9 and 2A. This is a good thing for the Green Wing.

[Phoebus]

It's terribly more efficient this way. Consider things like Devastator Squads or shooty Tac Squads. Paying extra for an additional attack is usually not terribly useful. But the 10 points saved on the Vet. can easily go toward more weapons. You can still grab the Vet. and you will cost the exact same as a normal squad of marines, but now you don't have to. It's even more useful now that we can have heavy weapons at minimum-size. Why waste 10 points on a Vet. when the 10 could go toward flak missiles on that missile launcher.

Eh, that's the thing. I'm partial to reconciling the crunch with the fluff. It feels awkward to me to have Dark Angels with Sergeants who are somehow implied to be "less than" those of other Chapters. It feels even worse that said "degrade" goes the opposite direction of something ingrained in Dark Angels fluff. This goes doubly so when this Codex actually goes along way toward making the Dark Angels competitive again. I mean, in the last edition, I'd probably see what you say as a necessary compromise. This time around, though? It feels like there was room to spare for a fluff-based luxury.

 

As for having Sergeants that were part of the Inner Circle, I think GW wanted to move away from that and not overly mix Inner Circle units in to the nomral battle companies. They wanted to leave that for ICs in high command positions. Non-command veterans of the Inner Circle are Deathwing and Deathwing always deploy to the field in Terminator Armour. GW could have gone the 3rd Edition route or stuck to the 2nd/4th Edition route; they took the latter.

I get that. I just think it was a missed chance to make this Codex special where the Chapter is concerned. I mean, plenty of posters asked why there wasn't as much emphasis on the "Greenwing" side of the house. But just as many posters pointed out that you can't really re-invent the wheel where new units and vehicles are concerned (like the Space Wolves) without also losing sight of the fact that the 3rd-10th Companies are supposed to be Codex-compliant. Ironically, though, "secret Inner Circle Veteran Sergeants" would have been precisely the sort of way you could have achieved that sort of uniqueness. And, in all honesty, that's something I would have been willing to blow 10-20 points towards.