Kinda disappointed.

[Plastic Rat]

I have one modeled and would love to know why Mr Vetock thought this is no longer acceptable.

 

I imagine it is because he knew that you had one and has a personal vendetta against you, which he slipped into the codex released deliberately to screw you (not us, specifically you) over.

I know that you don't intend it like that, but the rhetoric people use in these discussions makes it sound like they believe they're being personally persecuted by GW and the individual codex writers.

 

As you said you know that I don't intend it like that, so for what reason did you need to make that statement? I really don't think anyone appreciates such levels of snark and I'd much rather you responded to my actual point instead of some interpretation of my post which you already know is unintended.

 

To, perhaps needlessly, clarify, I'd like to know why a perfectly legitimate option up to here has been removed with seemingly little reason. If it's for something as ludicrous as 'list neatness and formatting' then I'm rather annoyed that people can simply have models invalidated at any writer's whim without much consideration.

[Ronin_eX]

It's terribly more efficient this way. Consider things like Devastator Squads or shooty Tac Squads. Paying extra for an additional attack is usually not terribly useful. But the 10 points saved on the Vet. can easily go toward more weapons. You can still grab the Vet. and you will cost the exact same as a normal squad of marines, but now you don't have to. It's even more useful now that we can have heavy weapons at minimum-size. Why waste 10 points on a Vet. when the 10 could go toward flak missiles on that missile launcher.

Eh, that's the thing. I'm partial to reconciling the crunch with the fluff. It feels awkward to me to have Dark Angels with Sergeants who are somehow implied to be "less than" those of other Chapters. It feels even worse that said "degrade" goes the opposite direction of something ingrained in Dark Angels fluff. This goes doubly so when this Codex actually goes along way toward making the Dark Angels competitive again. I mean, in the last edition, I'd probably see what you say as a necessary compromise. This time around, though? It feels like there was room to spare for a fluff-based luxury.

 

But that's the thing, GW builds codices in cycles. They don't go back a rewrite codices in older cycles to represent new ways of doing things. For a while it was the Dark Angels who had the always superior Sergeants while vanilla could choose. Hell as it stands Space Wolves make the same choices of whether to include a Wolf Guard leader in their packs. As it stands, in traditional Space Marine background, not every sergeant is a veteran. Veterans are rare and precious and there isn't always one to lead a squad in to battle. Dark Angels are simply going back to actually represent that on the tabletop again. But again, Vanilla don't have "superior" sergeants because we have a Veteran upgrade that makes us 100% the same as them. You should view this as representing the background with more fidelity than we saw in 4th and 5th edition. It will only remain awkward to you until the change occurs in the other chapters (here's hoping). You are viewing this through the lense of a unique innovation of the Dark Angels. Non-veteran sergeants are just returning to business as usual, nothing more. We started the trend and now we seem to be ending it.

 

As for having Sergeants that were part of the Inner Circle, I think GW wanted to move away from that and not overly mix Inner Circle units in to the nomral battle companies. They wanted to leave that for ICs in high command positions. Non-command veterans of the Inner Circle are Deathwing and Deathwing always deploy to the field in Terminator Armour. GW could have gone the 3rd Edition route or stuck to the 2nd/4th Edition route; they took the latter.

I get that. I just think it was a missed chance to make this Codex special where the Chapter is concerned. I mean, plenty of posters asked why there wasn't as much emphasis on the "Greenwing" side of the house. But just as many posters pointed out that you can't really re-invent the wheel where new units and vehicles are concerned (like the Space Wolves) without also losing sight of the fact that the 3rd-10th Companies are supposed to be Codex-compliant. Ironically, though, "secret Inner Circle Veteran Sergeants" would have been precisely the sort of way you could have achieved that sort of uniqueness. And, in all honesty, that's something I would have been willing to blow 10-20 points towards.

 

But it would it still be Greenwing if it was simply made unique by bringing in a bunch of detached Deathwing veterans? Company Masters and Librarians are something of a necesary evil when fielding a Battle Company themed list (though you could get away with using plain old Chaplains and just using Company Masters since they are attched directly at the company level). To me super-secret-inner-circle-sergeants would just be pulling the Wolf Guard schtick where it didn't belong.

 

It would also muddy the Greenwing by including Deathwing-attached assets in it.

 

To me, Greenwing got a lot from this list:

 

1) They were made cheaper so that they are good choices next to our specialist units.

2) They don't require "tax" characters allowing you to bring customized ICs of your own (which is great with such a versatile armoury to play with)

3) They have several specific items in the codex that make them quite viable in a real competitive sense.

4) Unlike the Deathwing and Ravenwing who have either stagnated or lost unique units over the years (where'd my attack bike squads go? what about our unique speeder variant?) the Battle Companies got a new toy in the last codex that was improved in every way in this codex.

 

I just find cries of favouritism to the Deathwing and Ravenwing in this release weird. It would be like Blood Angels complaining about Sanguinary Guard and the inclusion of Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans in their codex (all 1st Company units that didn't exist in their last codex). Or like vanilla marines complaining about the proliferation of said veteran units when their's came around. Well in the end the stagnating Ravenwing and Deathwing finally got the units they had missed out on for the last decade or so and Battle Companies already got their new toy in the last codex.

 

I'm just glad to have a list with a variety of viable builds for the Deathwing, Ravenwing, Battle Companies and all of the above. And we still feel quite unique for all of that.

 

And be proud that unlike every other company-themed vanilla army out there, that you have a veteran option you can field without having to go outside existing fluff. We have the only veteran assets attached at non-1st company levels. So you can build a pure 3rd Company list and your contributions from the Elite section will be more in depth than basic dreadnoughts (since Ven. Dreads are 1st Company assets). Dark Angels have battle company assets in every single slot. If that doesn't make the Greenwing happy then I don't know what will.

[MrSocks]

[ It would be like Blood Angels complaining about Vanguard Veterans in their codex

...and yet....they do!

On topic, I totally agree with you, Greenwing seem like a more viable build than building a codex compliant battle company using codex space marines....go figure. I don't understand why people are looking a gifthorse in the mouth, standard of devestation (aka the Dakka banner (LOL)), cheaper tacticals (yeah if you upgrade them they become the same price but since when did you need a veteran sergeant in an objective camping ML/PC/LC squad) and don't forget that your tacticals can be effected by so called dakka banner which makes them far better than their codex counterparts.

Also your assault squads have no weakness to them....so they can't get combat shields...because that 6+ invulnerable is funny but almost pointless. However what you can get are 2 special weapons in them....that's rather nice. Yes they're not AS good as some of the other Fast Attack options, but compared with say...the other marine codices they're either the same or slightly better. Not to mention you can make them troops with Azrael...? not sure that makes sense.

If you really want...paint a normal bike squad green, run them as ravenwing but call them a bike squad, then use them as your 7th and 8th squad? assault squads can be mounted on bikes!

All in all your codex is everything I would want in one, I'm just hoping C:SM is as interesting to read!

In addition if you want to complain why your fluffy army isn't as competitive as a competitive army....well

[GlauG]

Azrael doesn't make Assault Marines into Troops. He does both Deathwing AND Ravenwing though.

[MrSocks]

Fair enough, that's a shame! But still, greenwing is very viable!

[Gillyfish]

Having finally got hold of the Codex last night I have to say I'm quite happy. Lots of options and different builds are available and lots of them seem viable. It'll be interesting to try out a Company Master greenwing list with support elements from the Ravenwing and Deathwing and see how that plays. It looks like it might be pretty viable, although less glamourous than a list filled with Ravenwing and Deathwing. I'm looking forward to fielding the DA again now. :)

[Harleqvin]

Something Funny i thought about. You can give Int-Chaps and Chaps a Pair of Lightning Claws now.....:lol:Same for Librarians.

[Isiah]

I'm looking forward to fielding the DA again now.

QFT :yes: Great list-build experimentation and tactical/wargear nuances make the DA a very exciting prospect once again.

Cheers

I

[Phoebus]

But that's the thing, GW builds codices in cycles. They don't go back a rewrite codices in older cycles to represent new ways of doing things. For a while it was the Dark Angels who had the always superior Sergeants while vanilla could choose.

Ronin, no offense, but either way you cut it... GW absolutely re-introduced an old concept. Problem is, they re-introduced it right after ensuring every other power armour Codex had their Sergeants (or Sergeant-equivalents) on the same standard. I'd buy it if it had something to do with Dark Angels fluff; but it really doesn't. The veterancy of a Sergeant has never had more than the barest intersection with fluff. And really, ever since the introduction of Company Veterans, Vanguard Squads and Sternguard Squads, and the expansion of First Company fluff in general (meaning in all Chapters), I'm not sure how the idea of a Sergeant not being a Veteran has any meaning or luster left.

 

You are viewing this through the lense of a unique innovation of the Dark Angels. Non-veteran sergeants are just returning to business as usual, nothing more. We started the trend and now we seem to be ending it.

Absolutely. And that's the whole point of these Codices. They are supposed to focus on what makes the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templars, etc., different from a Codex Chapter. It's unfortunate that one of the few noticeable changes in terms of how the 3rd-10th Companies work in the Dark Angels Chapter is basically what the other Codices will be doing once they get around to printing them.

 

But it would it still be Greenwing if it was simply made unique by bringing in a bunch of detached Deathwing veterans? Company Masters and Librarians are something of a necesary evil when fielding a Battle Company themed list (though you could get away with using plain old Chaplains and just using Company Masters since they are attched directly at the company level). To me super-secret-inner-circle-sergeants would just be pulling the Wolf Guard schtick where it didn't belong.

That's the thing, it's not the Wolf Guard schtick; fluff-wise, they could not be more opposite from one another. Wolf Guard are part of an open, cult of personality-based chain of command. They have the option of leading a Pack, but they otherwise serve either as the obvious bodyguard of their Wolf Lord or as commanders of minor strike forces. By contrast, what Gav Thorpe introduced was the polar opposite of the Wolf Guard, and the logical extension of the Dark Angels mentality: members of the Inner Circle who don't wear the Captain Obvious Outfit, whose function is to basically watch over the watchmen.

 

It would also muddy the Greenwing by including Deathwing-attached assets in it.

No, it really wouldn't. In fact, by passing up on concepts like this, you actually achieve the opposite: you water down the themes that define the Dark Angels to the point where 80% of the Chapter don't just appear to be Codex-compliant; they basically are Codex-compliant. And while the Dark Angels always wanted outsiders to think that their Chapter is fundamentally Codex-compliant, their fluff and ethos has always been about the Inner Circle and its secrets.

 

And again, that was the point of the Codices: to showcase not just Codex-compliant Chapters, but those Chapters of fame and the ways in which they differ from said Codex Astartes. Within the Dark Angels, it's not just the Ravenwing and the Deathwing. Those two formations are the fighting arms of the Inner Circle, which is the actual driving force of the Dark Angels fluff. The Inner Circle's influence and presence does not stop either at the 2nd Company nor where the Company Master for the 3rd-10th Companies are concerned. If it did, then the Dark Angels fluff would be impossible to reconcile.

 

To me, Greenwing got a lot from this list:

Of course they did. I'm not here to say that teh Greenwing got shafted. I'm here to point out that it's sad that we didn't see a larger embrace of the fluff that drives his Chapter. People have a point when they say that the Greenwing are a little too much like green-colored Ultramarines.

 

I just find cries of favouritism to the Deathwing and Ravenwing in this release weird. It would be like Blood Angels complaining about Sanguinary Guard and the inclusion of Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans in their codex (all 1st Company units that didn't exist in their last codex). Or like vanilla marines complaining about the proliferation of said veteran units when their's came around. Well in the end the stagnating Ravenwing and Deathwing finally got the units they had missed out on for the last decade or so and Battle Companies already got their new toy in the last codex.

 

I'm just glad to have a list with a variety of viable builds for the Deathwing, Ravenwing, Battle Companies and all of the above. And we still feel quite unique for all of that.

That's great, Ronin - and I don't say that with any sarcasm whatsoever. Fact of the matter, though, is that our points are not mutually exclusive. Whether you like Greenwing just they way they are, or whether you feel that it's right and good that Sergeants (for the other Codices as well) have to drop extra points to be Veterans, that doesn't diminish what I offered, above. It can't be just about point costs eliminating a cool, non-obligatory (remember, we're talking about an upgrade here), fluff-based concept from consideration; otherwise, why did so many players on this very board stick with Codex: Dark Angels for all these years, when other Codices made various builds of this Chapter more viable?