Sgt Danosef Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 GW write and put to print many things which need clarification - of which our own Codex is a prime example - but this is one of those rules that I feel doesn't even need it. There will always be someone who doesn't understand the clearest of direction and this is one of those cases. Some of the arguments for Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters etc being classed as Boltguns in this case are just plain crazy. The Standard of Devastation rules state 'Boltgun'. Now, as VERY clearly stated in our Codex (and so the one source of what Boltgun means to us) the definition of a Boltgun is :- 'Boltgun - Range 24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire' . That's it. Not Storm, Heavy, Vulcan, Avenger 'variant' Boltguns. Just Boltguns. All the others have their own entry. Let GW off the hook with this one - they probably expected people to have a greater level of common sense than is being applied in some cases. They should spend their time clarifying things like why in the Emprah's name they gave Nephilim Fighters useless rules like 'Missile Lock'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Well, that's what happens when you teach an Orc player to read and then give them an Astartes Codex - Chainswords at dawn. And I'm not Codex-compliant, blasphemer. Chainsword? Don't you mean Chainaxe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Well, that's what happens when you teach an Orc player to read and then give them an Astartes Codex - Chainswords at dawn. And I'm not Codex-compliant, blasphemer. Chainsword? Don't you mean Chainaxe? I mean Black Sword and Armour of Faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 If only this was a simple case of RAW versus RAI, it isn't though, its selective interpretation (in extremis) for benefit. Beyond even the usual RAW malarky. Because I'm SURELY going to play it like that and force it down everyone's throats at the FLGS I work in. YEAH! It's just a funny curiosity and indication that per RAW the rules are broken again. Of course nobody will allow this to be played like that, but it's there, glaring at you. A boltgun is a boltgun is a boltgun, is all there is. Except according to you're interpretation, a boltgun is a bolt pistol, is a boltgun, is a storm bolter, is a heavy bolter, is a vulcan heavy bolter. There is no precedent (AFAIK) for GW referring to a class of weapon. Every time there is a rule modifying a weapons profile, it has been for the specific weapon in the rule. Any exceptions are mentioned, as in the case of special ammo and combi-weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 You need to add this to the ongoing FAQ/Errata etc topic Kaster Krieg as it's something that does need clarification from a RAW perspective. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I think a flavour text has no bearing on rules thus a vulcan mega bolter despite being a bolt type weapon is not affected by the same thing that affect bolters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJL Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 The next person that calls it a dakka banner or dakka pole or derp-di-derpderp needs to get banned for life! RAAARRRR im also pretty sure that bolter is meant to mean bolter, not anything starting with or containing the letter B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 If only this was a simple case of RAW versus RAI, it isn't though, its selective interpretation (in extremis) for benefit. Beyond even the usual RAW malarky. Because I'm SURELY going to play it like that and force it down everyone's throats at the FLGS I work in. YEAH! It's just a funny curiosity and indication that per RAW the rules are broken again. Of course nobody will allow this to be played like that, but it's there, glaring at you. A boltgun is a boltgun is a boltgun, is all there is. Except according to you're interpretation, a boltgun is a bolt pistol, is a boltgun, is a storm bolter, is a heavy bolter, is a vulcan heavy bolter. There is no precedent (AFAIK) for GW referring to a class of weapon. Every time there is a rule modifying a weapons profile, it has been for the specific weapon in the rule. Any exceptions are mentioned, as in the case of special ammo and combi-weapons. GK and their Suck-Your-Plasma-Dry doo-hickie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Except according to you're interpretation, a boltgun is a bolt pistol, is a boltgun, is a storm bolter, is a heavy bolter, is a vulcan heavy bolter. There is no precedent (AFAIK) for GW referring to a class of weapon. Every time there is a rule modifying a weapons profile, it has been for the specific weapon in the rule. Any exceptions are mentioned, as in the case of special ammo and combi-weapons. Except, for example, Power Weapons class? Force Weapons class? Grenades? These all have their own rules. Don't see why not a rule for Boltguns now. I think a flavour text has no bearing on rules thus a vulcan mega bolter despite being a bolt type weapon is not affected by the same thing that affect bolters. It's not flavour text. It's the "BOLTGUNS" heading of the weapon entry in the BRB. You need to add this to the ongoing FAQ/Errata etc topic Kaster Krieg as it's something that does need clarification from a RAW perspective. Yep, just trying to figure out how the entry will be worded, lol. The next person that calls it a dakka banner or dakka pole or derp-di-derpderp needs to get banned for life! Is it OK to call the awkward chapel-LS a DerpSpeeder though? :P im also pretty sure that bolter is meant to mean bolter, not anything starting with or containing the letter B. It does not say "bolter" at all. It says "boltguns" - which is another name for the S4 AP5 Rapid Fire bolters, BUT also a name for the whole range of "anything that shoots bolts", from bolt pistol to Vulcan Mega Bolter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 That's for GW to work out <_<. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Nah, I rather meant my errata's entry - how to best explain to GW how immense a cockup this is, lol :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Except according to you're interpretation, a boltgun is a bolt pistol, is a boltgun, is a storm bolter, is a heavy bolter, is a vulcan heavy bolter. There is no precedent (AFAIK) for GW referring to a class of weapon. Every time there is a rule modifying a weapons profile, it has been for the specific weapon in the rule. Any exceptions are mentioned, as in the case of special ammo and combi-weapons. Except, for example, Power Weapons class? Force Weapons class? Grenades? These all have their own rules. Don't see why not a rule for Boltguns now. Because under force and power weapons it says to look to the model to determine type. No such rules for bolguns I'm afraid. Otherwise, what's to stop me from saying all my tacs are carrying storm bolters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Because under force and power weapons it says to look to the model to determine type. No such rules for bolguns I'm afraid. Otherwise, what's to stop me from saying all my tacs are carrying storm bolters? The fact that "Boltgun" in wargear listings means a single weapon, not a weapon CLASS / TYPE, like what the dakkaflag's rules are referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJL Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I cant believe that people haven't noticed yet that a lib with prescience can make that even more sick. im thinking of taking ezekiel and a lvl 2 lib and getting divination, then a battle company with the banner and just hosing everything down with super accurate rapid fire boltgun shots! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 I cant believe that people haven't noticed yet that a lib with prescience can make that even more sick. im thinking of taking ezekiel and a lvl 2 lib and getting divination, then a battle company with the banner and just hosing everything down with super accurate rapid fire boltgun shots! Oh, we did notice :> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJL Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 The next person that calls it a dakka banner or dakka pole or derp-di-derpderp needs to get banned for life! Is it OK to call the awkward chapel-LS a DerpSpeeder though? yes, that is fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 The fact that "Boltgun" in wargear listings means a single weapon, not a weapon CLASS / TYPE, like what the dakkaflag's rules are referring to. No you are interpreting the Standard to be referring to a weapon type based on nothing other than some extremely convoluted and questionable reasoning. Nothing in the Standards rules even so much as suggests that its referring to anything other than boltguns/bolters. Also, you should probably refrain from accusing GW of making an immense cockup based solely on an extremely shaky/questionable/dubious interpretation of what is actually quite a straightforward rule. The error here lies in your wild interpretation not with GW's quite clear rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 While I anticipate the answer to this is no, what about a hurricane bolster? According to the codex, it is just 3 twin-linked bolt guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlauG Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Actually I would have personally considered the Hurricane Bolter to be covered, for that very reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 It is a question that needs FAQ'd because there are such things as 'translations' to other languages, and it isn't always clear... Being we are on the internet... Of course some people just like to harp on and accuse anytone who doesn't see everything from their own perspective as... a) Cheating B) Convoluted c) Ignorant and stupid So please send a nicely worded question in... do not forget to include Combi-Bolters and Hurricane Bolters, as well as Bolt Pistol, Storm Bolter, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Well, that's what happens when you teach an Orc player to read and then give them an Astartes Codex - Chainswords at dawn. And I'm not Codex-compliant, blasphemer. Chainsword? Don't you mean Chainaxe? I mean Black Sword and Armour of Faith. Getting cold feet? It's OK, I'll take the Chainsword naked, and you can have your fancy Power sword and Armor - it'll make it an almost fair fight for you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I'm pretty sure this list you posted can't be understood as a complete list of all "Boltguns" in the game, unless you want to tell me that e.g. an Angelus Bolter is not a Boltgun (or every other special boltgun they add in the future). Boltgun is the thing rapidfire, S4 and 24'' range. A hurricane bolter is indeed just 3 twin-linked boltguns, so those would work with the standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 So does that mean that when my Wargear entry says my model is armed with a "Boltgun" I can choose for him to be armed with a Vulcan Mega-bolter "Boltgun"? Laughed my guts off, thank you sir! If you do it I want to see a pic of said model. While it doesnt happen a lot I have to side with Maddoc on this one. All his points are valid I am afraid. In regards to the banner: Is the Boomstick a viable term or do I get banned for that too XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Giving Landrain's usual passive aggressive bull the attention it deserves and ignoring it... The majority of people appear to have no problem understanding that "units within 6" of the Standard treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons" means precisely what it says - any DA unit within 6" of the Standard treats their boltguns/bolters (should they have them) as Salvo 2/4 while within range of the Standard. Pretty clear, hardly something anybody could reasonably call confusing. It would be interesting to hear if Kastor Krieg's Codex is a foreign language (non-English) edition, since thats the only possible reason I can think of for something as clear cut as the above (in the English edition Codex at least) to be so wildly misinterpreted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 It is a question that needs FAQ'd because there are such things as 'translations' to other languages, and it isn't always clear... Being we are on the internet... Of course some people just like to harp on and accuse anytone who doesn't see everything from their own perspective as... a) Cheating Convoluted c) Ignorant and stupid Yeah, unfortunately. Thanks for understanding, mate. So please send a nicely worded question in... do not forget to include Combi-Bolters and Hurricane Bolters, as well as Bolt Pistol, Storm Bolter, etc... I'll do that with the whole bunch of other issues from the Errata, it's written down there already, so I won't forget. Well, that's what happens when you teach an Orc player to read and then give them an Astartes Codex - Chainswords at dawn. And I'm not Codex-compliant, blasphemer. Chainsword? Don't you mean Chainaxe? I mean Black Sword and Armour of Faith. Getting cold feet? It's OK, I'll take the Chainsword naked, and you can have your fancy Power sword and Armor - it'll make it an almost fair fight for you... Imma zeal ya off me lawn, boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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