2+ saves, and striking at init

[skeletoro]

I've been wondering about the possibility of decking out a unit of honour guard with power mauls. There, I said it.

 

9 honour guard with a chapter banner and power swords or lances is somewhat overkill versus MEQ units (on the charge, they'll kill 13 marines, on average). In 6th, they'll kill these 13 marines before receiving any AP2 attacks in return - in short, they'll slaughter them (and they'll do it with fewer casualties than a unit of TH+SS termies would take).

 

Maces seem better versus virtually anything non-MEQ. Even against MEQ, you're looking at 8 kills on the charge. That's not bad. A smidgen of extra shooting to soften the marines up and you'll wipe out most 3+ units pretty convincingly in a single round (with no chance of AP2 retaliatory strikes). AP3 swords are CLEARLY superior here, but mauls are good enough. We should be picking power weapons that provide a more meaningful benefit.

 

Against terminators, the maul does noticeably better than the sword (as it does against high toughness monstrous creatures and vehicles). In fact, against hammernators, the maul may be better than the axe!!! The maul users will kill 4 hammernators, while the axe users will kill 5.9. But let's think about this. About 5.3 of those kills are arriving at init 1: those 5.3 hammernators get to strike back. Thus, against 5 hammernators, the maul users will (based on means - which is a useful approximation but not QUITE accurate due to skewed distributions) only lose about 5/6 of a model. The axe users will likely kill all the hammernators, but will lose almost 4 models of their own! That seems like a very poor tradeoff!

 

Against a full unit of 10 hammernators, either unit WILL struggle. They'll kill the same number of hammernators (4 or 5.9) but will receive more attacks in return and thus will lose more units of their own (5 maul users or 8 axe users). Neither loadout performs amazingly against a full unit of hammernators - even when given the charge.

 

That said, the maul users seem to respond better to outside support. Soften up the hammernators with some extra bolter fire from a supporting unit or buff the maul users with a blessing such as Prescience, and there will not be many terminators remaining at initiative 1: the honour guard with mauls will emerge pretty unscathed. With a librarian and a force stave and prescience as the 10th member, you're looking at 6.3 kills on the charge. That's within spitting distance of wiping out 10 hammernators on the charge without the hammernators having a chance to strike back at all. If your librarian is lucky and gets misfortune, you'll kill 7.243 on the charge. Combine those 2 buffs? 9.422 on average (not including the attacks of your second psyker).

 

It's worth mentioning here that Sevrin Loth unlocks an honour guard and can reliably access the whole biomancy tree - give the honour guard relentless, FnP, and debuff the toughness and strength of your target by 1, and you're causing ID wounds against T4 characters, have a 5+ FnP save vs str 8 attacks (that is, thunder hammers), and get an extra bolter shot on the charge (not to mention Loth's 2++ save, which is just ridiculous). Hammernators only have a 0.19 chance of successfully charging 12" or more through the difficult terrain that enfeeble inflicts upon them too.

 

Combining a storm shield and an AP2 weapon does still seem to be a very viable tactic in 6th. But another viable tactic for models with 2+ saves seems to be to strike at initiative and pre-empt AP2 attacks with as many high-strength, high accuracy attacks as possible.

[tvih]

Seems like it could indeed work. I'd like to give mauls more of a try in a unit such as HG or Vanguard, but I suppose I'd have to convert some, given the lack of official bits. Since I don't really minmax, I suppose my HG would end up with mixed weapons. Of course the official models (I have the Calgar+HG box) has swords and axes, plus I'm thinking of adding the AoBR commander + Commander box's commander as additional HG. That'd allow 2x Sword, 2x Axe, 2x Maul, for example.

[skeletoro]

There's nothing particularly wrong with mixing and matching. Swords, spears and mauls might go quite well. All striking at init, and with enfeeble, all wounding on 5s or 6s. Again, with enfeeble, the mauls cause ID against most T4 characters, too. I think I might do something like that.

[Giga]

While theoretically honor guard are strong, in practice they suffer three huge disadvantages:

 

- you need to have a chapter master to unlock them, and chapter masters aren't all that good or cheap

 

- their survivability is crap, especially in this age of plasma, armor-ignoring templates/pieplates, and inability to assault on the turn you disembark

 

- they're bad in small numbers, and they need a land raider to be effective, so they end up being expensive as all hell

 

TH/SS termies are overall just better. HG weren't good in 5th, and 6th has only made them worse, sadly.

[pyroknight]

While I think you should play what is fun for you, I have to agree with Giga.

 

Honor guard are pretty cool, but a land raider is required. It adds up to a lot of points.

[tvih]

Yeah, and footslogging assault terminators are so great... not.

[skeletoro]

You don't need a chapter master. Sevrin Loth is amazing.

 

They're actually pretty survivable. With any cover or a 5+ invulnerable save/FnP, they're more survivable than tactical terminators due to their cheaper points cost. In melee, they will often suffer fewer casualties than TH+SS terminators because they're striking at initiative and can potentially wipe out the target unit before it gets a chance to strike (hidden fists will be a pain though, if you kill all but the fist..) Taking a unit like this, you should be aiming for maximum synergy with the rest of your army - it's not hard to get yourself a 5+ invulnerable save or FnP (Sevrin loth can get endurance and enfeeble without needing to roll, for example - and as an added perk you get to rapid fire your bolters before charging).

 

I don't think they NEED a raider. Move rhino 6. Disembark 6. Shoot bolters. Drive rhino 2 flat out around in front of honour guard (providing cover). Turn 2: move 6, rapid fire, and potentially charge. If no charge, move that first rhino flat out around in front after they've rapid fired, once again, providing cover.

 

I think hammernators need a land raider more desperately - sustaining 2 rounds of massed bolter fire while foot slogging (and lacking ranged weapons of their own) kinda hurts and makes them less points efficient than you might otherwise think.

 

I'm baffled as to why anybody would say that they're WORSE in 6th. They can now pre-empt virtually all AP2 by striking at init with their 5 attacks on the charge. They couldn't do that before.

[Giga]

Yeah, and footslogging assault terminators are so great... not.

Even with a LR included, termies are still way better.

 

5 th/ss termies in a land raider with multimelta = 460 pts.

 

5 honor guard with no upgrades in a LR with multimelta = 445 pts. AND you need a chapter master, so that's a minimum of 125 pts additional investment (it's going to be at least 30-45 pts more, realistically) for a crappy melee guy who will need to ride in the LR to do anything, meaning you end up having 600+ pts stacked in a single vehicle. God forbid you actually max out the honor guard unit and give them upgrades, because then you'll be looking at half of your overall points just for that one unit+HQ+their transport.

 

Sorry, there's no comparison here. If you want an assault element, get th/ss termies. Just about the only good thing about vanilla dex nowadays is that we can field lots of cheap, versatile, cost-efficient stuff. Deathstars just don't cut it anymore.

[skeletoro]

10 honour guard, sevrin loth, chapter banner, rhino: 615.

10 THSS in land raider with multimelta: 660.

 

I'm not saying I'd automatically take the honour guard, but I'd seriously consider it.

 

What upgrades are you talking about? That seems like a red herring argument to me. I don't think relic blades are worth it (Except perhaps for the champion, maybe).

[Giga]

Any opponent would take that rhino out on turn 1. 615 pts in a 11 11 10 non-assault transport = terrible idea. Also, rhinos have 10 models transport capacity, so I dunno where you intend to put Loth.

 

10 terminators can't fit in a land raider. The most you can fit is 8 in a crusader, or 6 in a godhammer/redeemer.

 

Also, I have no clue who this Loth is. Is he some forgeworld char? If so, good luck playing him in a tournament list. Speaking of which, is forgeworld is approved at your local tournaments, I suggest you simply get a pair of conversion beamer predators and own everyone. ;]

[skeletoro]

The point of the discussion is going WAY over your head. Go away, take a few deep breaths, think, and then come back.

 

Yes, this particular example relies on using Sevrin Loth, a forgeworld character (if you don't know who he is, then go read). If you cannot use him, then you don't use the honour guard. No biggie.

 

They take out the rhino turn 1. You disembark behind the rhino and have cover (or make use of a free 3" move, if your opponent has already blown all their shooting attacks for the turn). That's 35 points well spent, IMO. And that's assuming that your opponent went first. If you went first, you've already disembarked from the rhino and are using a second rhino for cover. Sure, they can pop that one, but you've already moved 12", and even if they pop it, chances are it's wrecked rather than exploded, so once again, you're hiding behind it.

 

Oh yep, I forgot about the capacity issue. 9 honour guard and 8 terminators would be the limit for the example I provided. Uhh, that's a point against the terminators?

 

You're missing the forest for the trees here. My point is that if you have a 2+ save, mass @initiative attacks can be as good or even better in many situations than the old 3++/AP2 solution. The honour guard are just one way of doing this. But I actually get the feeling you didn't closely read the numbers I wrote in my first post.

[DarkGuard]

As we're talking about units with 2+ saves AND the ability to strike at initiative, I don't understand how TH/SS Terminators have come into the equation. Well actually a do, but they shouldn't have. If you want to make a comparison between Honour Guard and Assault Terminators in this topic, please do so with lightning claw Terminators.

 

As for Honour Guard, I still like them with power swords, they still strike at initiative, and carve through power armour, whereas power mauls don't let them do that. The other option is the relic blade, which is the best of both, but you pay extra for it. With the maul, while AP4 hurts, the extra attacks from a banner and the extra strength should help force a lot of armour saves on 2+ and 3+ save units.

[skeletoro]

I think if you're only taking 5 honour guard, you should probably stick to AP3. But if you're taking 10, mauls are sufficient to take out 10 tactical marines anyway, so the AP3 is somewhat unnecessary (though it does help clinch things). If you're up against particularly tough 3+ units (such as death company or TWC) or a unit with an unusually high number of models (e.g. 15 blood claws or... gulp... 30 death company?! you might also wish you'd taken at least a few models with AP3. But against a basic unit of 10 MEQ, you won't miss it a whole lot.

 

Why hammernators? It seemed like a sensible benchmark when comparing @init and invuln + unwieldy.

 

Lightning claw terminators are also a good comparison, but for a different reason. They occupy a similar niche. It'd be interesting to run some numbers on that comparison, actually. Perhaps the lightning claw terminators would actually come out on top - at least versus power armoured models.

 

While on that topic, wolf guard with wolf claws might also be worth thinking about. They don't get the extra attack, but they do get storm bolters (which they can trade for combi weapons, mmm!) and wolf claws allow rerolls on to hit rolls or to wound rolls - your choice. It's rare that you'd choose to reroll to hit over to wound, but against an enfeebled target, you might. If would actually combine fairly well with random psychic powers for this reason - got prescience? Reroll wounds. Got Enfeeble? Reroll to hit. Not necessarily better than LC assault termies, but worth comparing anyway.

[Giga]

They take out the rhino turn 1. You disembark behind the rhino and have cover (or make use of a free 3" move, if your opponent has already blown all their shooting attacks for the turn). That's 35 points well spent, IMO. And that's assuming that your opponent went first. If you went first, you've already disembarked from the rhino and are using a second rhino for cover. Sure, they can pop that one, but you've already moved 12", and even if they pop it, chances are it's wrecked rather than exploded, so once again, you're hiding behind it.

Dude, if that tactic worked, you'd be seeing footslogging tactical terminators all the time. Against any decent army, your honor guard + loth would be whittled down into inefficiency long before they'd get into assault range. Unless this Loth has some insane survival rules he bestows upon them, 2+ with 5+ cover save is not going to cut it.

Oh yep, I forgot about the capacity issue. 9 honour guard and 8 terminators would be the limit for the example I provided. Uhh, that's a point against the terminators?

Except in reality it's not. The thing with terminators is that you don't need more than 5-6 of them to be cost-efficient. In other words, there's nothing 8 th/ss terminators can do that 5 th/ss terminators can't do already. Having more than 5-6 assault terminators is overkill 90% of the time.

[skeletoro]

Does a 2++ invulnerable save, and FnP, eternal warrior, toughness 4+d3 count?

 

Just checking.

 

As I pointed out in the math above, the 10 power armoured honour guard would eat 5-6 hammernators for breakfast. As in, most of the hammernators wouldn't get to strike back. The only scenario where the hammernators would win is where they're matched for points and the units aren't boasting any psychic buffs.

 

In fact, there are MANY melee specialists that will chew up 5-6 hammernators for breakfast - specifically for the reason I've been laying out in this thread. When combatants are mismatched for initiative, the damage output of the slower unit is depreciated by the percentage casualties that are inflicted on them before they strike. 5-6 hammernators will do well charging regular tactical marines, for sure. But spammy units such as fenrisian wolves will chew them up - and they won't take many casualties doing so (on average, they'll kill 0.625 points worth of hammernator per point spent on the charge. Hammernators will kill 0.250 p/ps - that's on the charge, but if the units are matched for points, those 25 fenrisian wolves will have killed 62.5% of them, so they'll really only kill 0.094 points per point spent).

 

That's my point. If you go first, then in effect, your survivability is increased proportionate to the damage you deal before your oppponent retaliates. If you kill half of them (leaving aside hidden fists), it's equivalent to having an extra 4+ save that stacks with whatever else you already had. Honour guard are just an interesting illustration of this, Because honour guard shrug off all AP3. Init 5 fenrisian wolves are another example.

[Axagoras]

Does a 2++ invulnerable save, and FnP, eternal warrior, toughness 4+d3 count?

 

Just checking.

 

As I pointed out in the math above, the 10 power armoured honour guard would eat 5-6 hammernators for breakfast. As in, most of the hammernators wouldn't get to strike back. The only scenario where the hammernators would win is where they're matched for points and the units aren't boasting any psychic buffs.

What unit are you talking about lol, Severin loth?

[Giga]

Lol, are those real rules for a forgeworld character? No wonder that garbage is banned from normal play. xD Either way I'm not talking about Loth himself but about the honor guard, they'll get owned by shooting if they try to advance on foot.

 

Anyway, you obviously aren't paying attention to what I'm saying and not taking the larger picture into consideration (or you're playing in some weird meta where people assault the choppy units instead of shooting them to death, which is exactly what your HG vs hammernators comparison is, a sandbox "argument" that has little bearing on how an actual battle would play out), so there's no point in continuing this discussion. Agree to disagree. Good luck in your battles.

[skeletoro]

Yeah, Sevrin Loth is crazy powerful. I'd buy a Red Scorpions detachment as allies from forgeworld, to be used it tournaments or against opponents when they do allow allies. If they didn't allow allies, I'd go other routes. "Sometimes you won't be allowed to use it" doesn't strike me as a particularly compelling argument (I don't want to always field the same army every time anyway!), though "You will NEVER be allowed to use it" would be (hell, I want to get to use the units at least SOME of the time). But though the former may be true, I'm under the impression that the latter is not.

 

I totally agree that the honour guard aren't worth if you have to buy a character you really don't want in order to unlock them. My thinking is more along the lines of "IF you have Sevrin Loth, would it be better to buy an honour guard?"

 

And, as I've said a few times now, the MAIN point is that there are quite a few assault units that do well because a) most targets that pose a serious threat to them attack at a lower initiative than them and B) they are deadly enough against those same targets that after taking attrition into account, the target unit won't actually be particularly damaging against them after all.

 

In a Red Scorpions army, honour guard do this quite well. But as I said, this is just one example of the principle.

[Axagoras]

Lol, are those real rules for a forgeworld character? No wonder that garbage is banned from normal play. xD Either way I'm not talking about Loth himself but about the honor guard, they'll get owned by shooting if they try to advance on foot.

Lol, around here its not for good reason, FW is 40k legal.

[skeletoro]

Another potential tactic for honour guard would be to give them all axes. In Loth's presence, they may be sufficiently durable versus thunder hammers to just absorb the hits and smack back that little bit harder. With Loth, you'd likely take biomancy - he gets access to all 6 powers in the tree he picks, plus his own special power granting him 2++. Normally you'd cast that, enfeeble, and endurance.

 

 

This would be especially true in a specific context that I've had in the back of my mind - the context of having a rune priest council. If you've got a lot of Rune priests rolling Divination in the background, then there's a decent chance that you'll pick up forewarning (the probability of getting forewarning with four rune priests all rolling divination is 80%, and the same odds for misfortune, plus obviously you'll have prescience up the wazoo). Of course, this is a VERY specific army build.

[Captain Idaho]

If you are taking a Landraiders, Honour Guard are great. They target different targets to Assault Terminaters and excel in different ways.

 

They are more flexible not just in armament but also transport. Rhinos and Razorbacks aren't worthwhile in my view, but Drop Pods seem good.

 

Incidentally I got them to work in 5th great and in a recent tournament I managed well even against an IG/GK gunline/Stormraven assault force.

 

Now I don't know about a squad full of Mauls. Other weapons to give legs up when casualities come in would help. For example, 5 losses and you lose your capacity against power armour.

[DarkGuard]

Why hammernators? It seemed like a sensible benchmark when comparing @init and invuln + unwieldy.

 

Ah ok, I was under the impression that you only wanted discussion on the 2+ I4 area, and the talk of Hammernators seemed to be overwhelming that and obscuring the potential to talk about appropriate tactics. I misread the situation, my bad.

[skeletoro]

If you are taking a Landraiders, Honour Guard are great. They target different targets to Assault Terminaters and excel in different ways.

 

They are more flexible not just in armament but also transport. Rhinos and Razorbacks aren't worthwhile in my view, but Drop Pods seem good.

 

Incidentally I got them to work in 5th great and in a recent tournament I managed well even against an IG/GK gunline/Stormraven assault force.

 

Now I don't know about a squad full of Mauls. Other weapons to give legs up when casualities come in would help. For example, 5 losses and you lose your capacity against power armour.

 

Hmm, actually, great point regarding casualties and the effect it has on mauls vs MEQ. That is certainly a serious issue.

 

A workaround might be to take a mix. IF you wanted to shell out for a raider, I think spears may be a pretty good option, particularly in the presence of Loth. Enfeeble+spear = wounding most targets on 2s anyway and you're at ap3. Enfeeble also can help ensure that you get the charge - infantry without fleet or move through cover only have a very low chance of clearing 12" in a move+charge, so if you find yourself 18" away from an enemy assault unit, you can move up 6, rapid fire, watch the opposition's charge falter, and then charge them the following turn. Between that and an assault ramp, and you can be quite confident that it'll mostly be you that gets the charge.

 

I'd probably keep a couple of mauls to scare enfeebled ICs and paladins, though.

 

I would endorse drop pods as the best option, but my thoughts are all in the context of taking a psyker. No blessings/maledictions the turn you arrive from reserves, sadly... But maybe it's worth it anyway. At least Loth could smite and activate a force weapon that turn!

 

I've also been seriously considering a librarian with gate of infinity - it might go quite well with enfeeblement kiting, and auxiliary frag grenades are actually OK for the points against t3 marines. But it doesn't seem reliable enough (2d6 is a lot of scatter) and as far as I can tell, you don't get to move after gate of infinity (making you very vulnerable to plasma cannons etc).

[skeletoro]

They take out the rhino turn 1. You disembark behind the rhino and have cover (or make use of a free 3" move, if your opponent has already blown all their shooting attacks for the turn). That's 35 points well spent, IMO. And that's assuming that your opponent went first. If you went first, you've already disembarked from the rhino and are using a second rhino for cover. Sure, they can pop that one, but you've already moved 12", and even if they pop it, chances are it's wrecked rather than exploded, so once again, you're hiding behind it.

Dude, if that tactic worked, you'd be seeing footslogging tactical terminators all the time. Against any decent army, your honor guard + loth would be whittled down into inefficiency long before they'd get into assault range. Unless this Loth has some insane survival rules he bestows upon them, 2+ with 5+ cover save is not going to cut it.

By cover I mant line of sight. They're behind a rhino wall (though it's possible that due to poor positioning and the size of the unit, focus fire lascannons or the like might kill a couple.)

 

Also, terminators could do this to some extent, but that doesn't make footslogging terminators particularly good. And does it need to be said that terminators can't embark in rhinos? They couldn't use a rhino to slingshot 12+d6" on turn 1. But sure, they could hide behind any other rhinos in your army. Rhinos are quite good like that, now that they tend to get wrecked rather than explode.

[Giga]

That tactic would only work if you're advancing against a passive gunline and the terrain is completely flat/filled with los-blocking pieces and the opponent has no flyers/barrage/deep strikers/etc.

 

Hiding 10 marines behind rhinos against an army that can quickly re-position its shooty elements to get better line of sight, or that has shooty stuff like obliterators on tall terrain or manticores or hit & run bikers with twinlinked plasmaguns, just plain isn't going to work. Also, god forbid flamers of tzeench get a good turn of shooting against that unit.

 

But anyway, do make a battle report once you test this out. I'd love to see how it does.