2+ saves, and striking at init

[maturin]

Skeletoro, perhaps you should retitle the thread "Loth & friends". ;)

 

I'm a big fan of using "underdog" units like vanguard and honor guard, but don't think you've been comparing apples to apples in your arguments.

 

First, Sevrin Loth is widely acknowledged as one of the most overpowered characters in the game, so relying on him to prove that honor guard are viable isn't a great start. Heck, he'd make a unit of Gretchin able to wipe a tac squad in CC!

Second, it seems in your examples above it seems you've been comparing 600 points of HG +Loth vs 200-400 points of opponents (forgive me if I've misread the arguments?). You can argue that simple chainswords would do at that level of point imbalance.

 

Overall your point about mass attacks overwhelming opponents is a valid one - the ork codex does it quite well. It's just that C:SM doesn't have that many builds that offer mass attacks, and those that do suffer from delivery issues. Rhinos for assault units in 6th, while possible, just are too unreliable for my taste. I like Captain Idaho's suggestion of drop pods a lot better. Gate of infinity is also viable, if you have a way to reduce scatter. And actual assault vehicles just are too good in 6th; workarounds just don't compare (unfortunately).

 

[Axagoras]

I bet lysander could beat him pretty good.

[tvih]

I bet lysander could beat him pretty good.

Not if those stats are indeed true. 2++ save and FnP (which Loth would seem to get a lot of the time, if he indeed gets an additional D3 of Toughness)? Better than 3++ for sure (as far as I see, Loth has an axe and thus AP2?).

 

Anyway, the lack of an invul save is indeed a big problem with HG. It's lame, because the HG models (I have Calgar+HG) are so awesome. There is of course the option of using a Librarian for that, but it ups the cost of the squad further. Speaking of which though, I don't see the problem in needing a Chapter Master and thus the added cost - a Captain is only 25 points cheaper than a Chapter Master, after all, and personally I mostly use Kantor when playing C:SM anyway. And as for the termies, as I implied they suck as footsloggers too, they're easily avoided as such. Of course they absorb more dakka than HG can withstand in the process - assuming the enemy can be bothered to even shoot them rather than just avoiding them.

 

I've only used HG twice so far, with the first time being ruined by Incubi (seriously, Phil Kelly needs a little "gift" from Nurgle for coming up with those) and the second because of a combination of using a Rhino and facing Doomscythes. When I use them the next time, it'll be with a Redeemer.

[Axagoras]

he is only 2 wounds though, thats his weakness.

[tvih]

he is only 2 wounds though, thats his weakness.

Going a bit off-topic, but well, in that case it'd end up closer, I suppose.

 

Assuming Loth can stay at 6 Toughness, it'd be a 11,11% chance to take an unsaved wound, so it'd take about 20 wounds to actually kill him on average. By comparison against AP2 Lysander has a 33,33% chance to take an unsaved wound, thus requiring 12 wounds to kill. This of course doesn't yet take into account how many attacks each get, nor how easily they cause a wound, as I don't know what STR and number of attacks and WS Loth has. But assuming both having 4 attacks and Loth swinging at S5 due to axe and equal WS, Lysander would cause 1,67 wounds per turn and Loth 1,33 wounds per turn. Thus it would take Lysander 12 turns to kill Loth, and Loth 9 turns to kill Lysander.

 

That's of course with the assumed FNP and Loth's other stats, but I imagine they at least aren't worse than that (after all he has a pistol, so even with 3 base attacks he'd still attack 4 times). Of course I'd still say Lysander is the steadier performer, with just two wounds a small amount of bad luck is enough to kill you.

[skeletoro]

Basically Loth is Mastery level 3, gets all the powers from one psychic discipline, and an extra power which makes his 2+ save 2++. Personally, I would run him biomancy most of the time (sadly, he can't take div) and would use his 2++ and endurance. For the third power I'd probably alternate between enfeeblement and iron arm.

 

If I knew a duel was coming up, I'd probably take iron arm - meaning that he's toughness 5-7, strength 6-8, and has eternal warrior.

 

Lysander is certainly badass, and very well might beat Loth if he was lucky. He has the advantage of hitting on 3s, and has master crafted to boot. Plus an extra wound. With iron arm, 2/3rds of the time, Loth would have feel no pain (If I rolled a 1 for toughness, and was dueling Lysander, I might consider taking warp speed instead for +1d3 attacks).While Loth had feel no pain up, he'd be about 3x as survivable to Lysander's attacks (with only half the wounds, but he also would have "it will not die" under those buffs). He'd also have 1 extra attack over and above Lysander.

 

Poor luck on manifestation rolls might make for a very short duel though.

 

Also, keep in mind that the chapter champion would have to duel lysander and lose before Loth got a turn.

[Captain Idaho]

There's too much comparison being made between these units against each other. If I wanted to beat an opponent using my Ultramarines against Lysander and anything he was with, I'd shoot them dead whilst my Honour Guard set about wiping the floor with the rest of the army. I'd expect my opponent to be doing the same!

 

Besides the Chapter Champion has to issue and accept the Challenges which would save the unit from being pumelled by Lysander anyway.

 

As for performance of HG; yes they will die to Incubi! Incubi are incredibly potent at killing elite units. Honour Guard are great at killing everything else, so it's a chess game matching up the best opponents for them.

[skeletoro]

Skeletoro, perhaps you should retitle the thread "Loth & friends". I'm a big fan of using "underdog" units like vanguard and honor guard, but don't think you've been comparing apples to apples in your arguments.

Hah, fair enough. Yes, this thread is definitely motivated by thoughts of "OK, hammernators are great. What kinds of units or combinations of units wound roundly defeat hammernators?" In short, I'm quite openly looking for corner cases and combos. I'm not trying to say that honour guard are a better fit for any army - very far from it. But for some armies, they might be.

First, Sevrin Loth is widely acknowledged as one of the most overpowered characters in the game, so relying on him to prove that honor guard are viable isn't a great start. Heck, he'd make a unit of Gretchin able to wipe a tac squad in CC!

He would personally solo a tactical squad - the gretchins' attacks would be icing. Point taken, but as I said above and previously, I'm doing 2 things here:

1) Asking the question "what units work well with Loth?" (I think that if you have Loth, honour guard may indeed be a better choice than hamernators). A related side-question is how psychic powers inform unit loadouts. Although random power selection kinda sucks, the nice thing about blessings and maledictions is that you can choose where you direct them (and, if you are lucky, you may have a couple of powers to choose from). I'm really interested in the idea of a rune priest heavy list with a "build-your-own-deathstar" theme. I've been exploring honour guard as one potential complement to such a list (ultimately, I am leaning towards some other,cheaper units, however).

2) Exploring the idea of assault units that use initiative and offense to win fights rather than superior defenses. Honour guard are just one way of exploring this idea - lightning claw assault terminators are another possibility, but I am unsure how the calculations would pan out there. A higher initiative unit that can obtain .5 points taken per point spent in melee, while ceding no more than 1 point taken per point spent to retaliatory strikes, breaks even against a similarly priced unit. They kill half, and then the survivors kill half in return. However, if that unit's damage output is buffed by 1/2, it will dramatically overwhelm its enemy - killing 75% and ceding only 25%. If buffs double the damage output, the victors may emerge unscathed.

The unit I was describing comes pretty close to fitting this pattern: 0.471 on the charge (ceding on average 0.73), and with prescience and misfortune, reaching 0.942. With mauls, those 2 buffs, and average luck, 9 honour guard will kill 8 hammernators without being so much as scratched in return.

There's a flip side to these musings about buffs an initiative - hammernators do respond quite positively to buffs themselves. I haven't been exploring this idea so much personally, but my inclination is that if you're going to use psychic powers, you should choose a unit that is going to benefit from prescience - because it's a primaris you're likely to end up with. High initiative assault units translate extra damage output into extra durability, so high init seems a better partner for psykers. Doubling the damage output of hammernators to 2 points per point spent will allow them to win in spite of losing half their number, but it won't stop them from losing half their unit in the process.

Second, it seems in your examples above it seems you've been comparing 600 points of HG +Loth vs 200-400 points of opponents (forgive me if I've misread the arguments?). You can argue that simple chainswords would do at that level of point imbalance.

400 points more than 200. Although Loth is a bit of an exception (as I was suggesting actually putting him in the unit, though he need not be) generally, I've been relying on his psychic powers, rather than his 2++ save to make my point (yes, the 2++ does rather trivialize things). In my mental "sandbox," the psykers are a given in this exercise - the question is: what units will make the most of their attentions? Honour guard may not be the best fit (and actually, I'm coming to the realization that I need not go looking in the marine codex for answers - space wolves have better options themselves), but it's nevertheless interesting that they do very well in such a list.

Overall your point about mass attacks overwhelming opponents is a valid one - the ork codex does it quite well. It's just that C:SM doesn't have that many builds that offer mass attacks, and those that do suffer from delivery issues. Rhinos for assault units in 6th, while possible, just are too unreliable for my taste. I like Captain Idaho's suggestion of drop pods a lot better. Gate of infinity is also viable, if you have a way to reduce scatter.

I'm not THAT familiar with orks, but they're a bit different, with their intermediate initiative. Against init 3-4 and higher, they rely upon the fact that in spite of the grotesque numbers of casualties they take, they pack a huge number of attacks per point spent. You'll kill some, but perhaps not enough. In a sense, they're closer to terminators than, for example, high init eldar, tyranids or fenrisian wolves. Against hammernators, however, yes, they rely on a high number of attacks per point spent to overwhelm their opponents before getting smashed by thunder hammers. 1.5 points per attack (on the charge) is quite sick, to be be honest. Not having played against them, I can only assume that this is made up for by the fact that they're ordinary infantry and often lose many models to shooting attacks before making it into melee

And actual assault vehicles just are too good in 6th; workarounds just don't compare (unfortunately).

This is a bit of a sideline issue. There's nothing to STOP you from taking a land raider for your honour guard, and it may in fact be the best option, in spite of the high points cost. My point is merely that honour guard aren't MORE reliant on land raiders to be effective than are TH+SS terminators.

[Giga]

The 2++ save is actually a psychic power? So all he needs is to fail one psychic test (or go up against a runepriest/tyranids/eldar) and not have an inv save?

[skeletoro]

He doesn't have to make a check for the armour - it's automatic. For the other two powers, yep, it's fair game. He has a one in TWELVE chance of failing his psychic test, just like anybody else (and yep, rune priests etc can mess with it).