Cap'm Heckus Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Well, I won. Opponent ran Typhus with 2 blobs of 22 zombies, 3 10-man PM squads in rhinos, a forge fiend, and some predators. Both his and my Forge Fiends died turn one. Warp Talons (surprizingly) were one of the stars of the show killing 14 zombies on a charge and finishing a squad of plague marines later in the game. My 30 cultist tarpit with Dark Apostle got tarpitted themselves by a squad of PM. I whittled them down to half before charging (burning brand on the DA helped). Them we sat there for 3 turns. He'd kill a few culties. I'd kill 1 PM. T5, 3+ saves and FNP is a pain. I have also decided I hate power mauls in a marine fight. The game end with each of us holding 1 objective, I had first blood. Oh, turn 6 also ended with my DA and cultist champion STILL locked in CC with his last Plague Marine. Typhus was a beast. Summation: Fearless hateful cultists (non-zombie) in a 30 man blob with 3 flamers (4 with brand) did well. Will prolly try it with Khârn next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Steel Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Editted: It's nice to see someone trying this out (Cultists + Character geared for flaming & close clombat) as I was thinking of trying it myself sometime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Noob question: How did the Plagues get FNP? I take it they got it from a friendly Sorceror? It's nice to see someone trying this out (Cultists + Character geared for flaming & close clombat) as I was thinking of trying it myself sometime soon. Plague Marines have FnP as standard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Steel Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Re-reads codex... So that's why everyone and their mother is saying they're great... Can't believe I missed that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 savour it! good feeling when you discover your codex was better than you though! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Steel Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I'm curious how well it would work to take two squads of Cultists as 'Khârn delivery systems'- taking one squad of 20+ unmarked Cultists & Khârn as the front wave, then a second wave of 30+ Khorne marked Cultists (Kultists?). The front wave will usually be shot to ribbons, but being fearless it won't matter, so should still make it into combat, even if there are only a few guys left. By the time the second wave catches up, Khârn can just casually slide into their unit to move the fearlessness/ Hatred somewhere new... @ Nehekhare: Alas! The feeling (in an appropriately Chaos-y way) is already turning into more of negative- I used to play a Nurgle/ Plague Marine army several codices ago, and so was looking to move onto other areas with this codex; even more irritatingly I played the hell of a Slaaneshi army at that time, so if I wanted t stay away from those, for a more interesting experience/ new modelling options the only options left are Khorne, Undivided or Tzeentch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 i didn't say mobile. between terrain and cultists, getting them to the opponent(unless you fight a pure back of the board gunline) is quite a bit easier. I had to hear from my raven guard opponent for three weeks over how retardedly "cheesy" the tactic and unit was. as the opponent, i'd like to point out i said warp talons are "cheesy". and for their points cost, they are. cultists on the other hand are awesome. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Wait, warp talons cheesy? It's the first I hear about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 i didn't say mobile. between terrain and cultists, getting them to the opponent(unless you fight a pure back of the board gunline) is quite a bit easier. I had to hear from my raven guard opponent for three weeks over how retardedly "cheesy" the tactic and unit was. as the opponent, i'd like to point out i said warp talons are "cheesy". and for their points cost, they are. Talons are easily countered by being in terrain and/or shooting them. They die like regular marines to torrent fire and are not particularly tough. When they enter play you even get a free round of shooting at them! If their blind power worked you just have bad luck. This is just another example of the word 'cheese' being flung around with reckless abandon regardless of the competitive quality of the unit in question. "I lost! Must be those cheesy warp talons!" Lt. Steel- the Plague Father's family is always happy to have another member! Come back to us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Additionally they don't have frags either, so you could just sit in cover and shoot them, let them assault you and you'd still go first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayray Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 well, you can look at all of the warp talon's flaws. or you can find a way to use them. Cultists definetly help the situation with the in-built bubblwrap goodness. Just like your tool during sex, it's all on how you use it(them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 sorry, any unit that comes with lightning claws, jump packs and a 5++ save for just 30 points aint right. so they dont have frags...they still have a marine stat-line and armor. so they can safely jump into terrain just about all the time. but hey, opinions are like butts. everybody has one and most of them are full of crap. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Terminators cost 30 points. Bikes only 20. Both are effective against a wide range of targets. Warp talons are overkill against lightly armored hordes (when they're not getting dragged down by weight of fire / number of attacks), and are worthless against 2+ save units and vehicles. While they're effective in melee against meq units, their terminator cost and marine defenses means they're terribly vulnerable to light arms fire, including the bolters that meq units are typically hauling around. So they're particularly vulnerable to the only targets they're worth taking against. And, again, they cost as much as terminators. The problems with warp talons are exactly the things that are supposed to make them good - the lightning claws and the invulnerable save. Both just cost too many points, while being all but useless in too many situations. The lack of ranged fire, special weapons, grenades, & options on the champ are just the salt in the wound. An FAQ that just gave them assault grenades would not have done enough to make them worth taking. Not when baledrakes do their job way, way, way better (the third 'way' is for the new faq ruling), and bikes, spawn, or even raptors can do so much more useful things for you with the same slots and points. Don't get me wrong, the talons look awesome. And it's not like you'll never kill anything or do anything useful with them. Take them for the cool models, and then try to get as much use out of them as you can. But just because they aren't worse then spending the same points and slots on literally nothing at all doesn't mean they're "good", let alone as good as any of the other options we have in fast attack, which is overall a very competitive slot for chaos, even if you don't spam overpowered baledrakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Terminators cost 30 points. Bikes only 20. Both are effective against a wide range of targets. Warp talons are overkill against lightly armored hordes (when they're not getting dragged down by weight of fire / number of attacks), and are worthless against 2+ save units and vehicles. While they're effective in melee against meq units, their terminator cost and marine defenses means they're terribly vulnerable to light arms fire, including the bolters that meq units are typically hauling around. So they're particularly vulnerable to the only targets they're worth taking against. And, again, they cost as much as terminators. The problems with warp talons are exactly the things that are supposed to make them good - the lightning claws and the invulnerable save. Both just cost too many points, while being all but useless in too many situations. The lack of ranged fire, special weapons, grenades, & options on the champ are just the salt in the wound. An FAQ that just gave them assault grenades would not have done enough to make them worth taking. Not when baledrakes do their job way, way, way better (the third 'way' is for the new faq ruling), and bikes, spawn, or even raptors can do so much more useful things for you with the same slots and points. Don't get me wrong, the talons look awesome. And it's not like you'll never kill anything or do anything useful with them. Take them for the cool models, and then try to get as much use out of them as you can. But just because they aren't worse then spending the same points and slots on literally nothing at all doesn't mean they're "good", let alone as good as any of the other options we have in fast attack, which is overall a very competitive slot for chaos, even if you don't spam overpowered baledrakes. you see them as being too expensive, i see it as the other units being too cheap. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayray Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 All of those units may be "too cheap", or warp talons may be "tooexpensive", but they cost what they cost. Deal with it and don't play them/ avoid all chaos players. 'or Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 A single space wolf player cries cheese on a widely-derided unit that few chaos players even use? Strange. There are two possibilities- that the Talons are indeed underpriced/over powered and that the chaos community as a whole has overlooked it; or that someone is being a poor sport. My thrones are on the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'm Heckus Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 In the above mentioned game, the Warp Talons wiped out 22 zombie cultists in 2 combat turns (not really that amazing of a feat) but then couldn't even scratch Typhus who killed 3 of 6 and sent then running (despite VotLW) back across the table ......which worked out perfectly. Typhus couldn't claim the objective without the zombies and the Talons rallied and went on to wipe out the last few plague marines that were harrassing my home objective. I don't feel they're over priced. They can't shoot, they wither to fire like any other MEQ (5++ rarely comes through when you need it), and no assault grenades. Raptors are just better for a good bit less. Now, if I'm fighting blood angels or space wolves and I don't think Termis will be an issue, the Talons are great as back up for a bike rush or raptor bomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Summation: Fearless hateful cultists (non-zombie) in a 30 man blob with 3 flamers (4 with brand) did well. Will prolly try it with Khârn next week. yeah that's something like i was thinking of trying with huron. outflank/infiltrate with him attached to a mess of cultists and just burn everything, then drown it in dice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 All of those units may be "too cheap", or warp talons may be "tooexpensive", but they cost what they cost. Deal with it and don't play them/ avoid all chaos players. 'or A single space wolf player cries cheese on a widely-derided unit that few chaos players even use? Strange. There are two possibilities- that the Talons are indeed underpriced/over powered and that the chaos community as a whole has overlooked it; or that someone is being a poor sport. My thrones are on the latter. @Rayray: So far I've avoided playing them (the whole moving to a new city and fixing up a house on top of the closing of the game store), so thats working out for me. I dont miss it much either and i prefer he term unbalanced or broken to cheesy. @whythre: While my account is a Wolf one, I have been playing my "Fluffy" Raven Guard for the last year or so. (consisting of Scouts, Tact Marines and jump packs. no armor outside a storm talon, and a generic captain. no named characters or units that would stand out in a ambush force) My Wolves havent fought chaos yet, and I wont be worried when they do. But good job labeling something without actually knowing what your talking about. and trust me, I've seen the "chaos community" on these forums for the last few years. I wouldnt agree with the lot of you if my life depended on it. the amount of 3.5 whinning is both comical and depressing. on topic, cultists are awesome. besides being fluffy, the amount of hate 27 autoguns can unleash is always suprising, and 3 flamers with a Wall of Death can lay a beating on many charging units. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoteForPedro Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I always stick at least 10 Cultists into a list, a handful of points for a rearguard reserve and hide unit that slithers onto an objective is hard to turn down. I haven't worked out what equipment I prefer though. Autoguns seem like a good go to but I find Cultists are hiding/ gone to ground so much that it's points I could be saving. Heavy Stubber vs Flamer is just as tricky: while the Stubber meshes better with the threat range of the Autoguns the flamer does at least provide very minimal charge deterrent and gives a bit of close range punch. Oh, and I love the models so it's a win/win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 30 points is too much for a meq dude. Way too vulnerable, way too narrow. You can find some use for them, if you like the models, but they aren't something you should be taking for gameplay effect alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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