Green Mehreens: A Handy Guide

[Reclusiarch Darius]

So, the new Dark Angel codex is out now. Lets talk about ways to dismantle the various new units and new combo's we are likely to face:

 

HQ:

 

- Azrael: AP3 melee, so he's a joke in a challenge with any of our heroes. His real value comes from attaching to an IG blob unit and marching up the field, laughing off our firepower with 4+ invul meatshields at rock-bottom prices. He also unlocks Doublewing all on his own, although only if DA are primary detachment. Challenge him out early on, smash his face in with a hammer (he has artificer plate so halberds won't work), IG blob stops being a problem.

 

- Sammael: He's basically the same as before, except now they remembered IC status so he'll be in Ravenwing units hiding. Stated immunity to ID is a pain, but he's only in PA, so massed halberd wounds will do him in (or even massed psycannon). A DK can take him on pretty easily, again AP3 melee.

 

- Belial: Price upgrade, but he still swaps for hammer+shield for free. He's the toughest and most annoying of them, as he'll derp in with a whole bunch of scoring Terminators. Deathwing Assault is now guaranteed Turn 1 or Turn 2, and your opponent doesn't have to tell you which it is.

 

- Other named HQ's: Overpriced, 'Mind Worm' on Ezekiel is annoying but our Aegis should help out there, AP3 melee makes them all irrelevant in challenges.

 

- Generic HQ's: Cheap Divination Librarians, even with Mastery 2 (around Coteaz price), are going to be spammed at 2k to provide buffs everywhere (like Rune Priests for Wolves). All the others are awful and again AP3 melee unless they go fist/hammer.

 

- Command squads: Pricier version of below generics, used for unlocking the various Banners.

 

Elites:

 

Deathwing Knights: Urgh. They're only marginally more expensive than our Knight blob, and cheaper than Paladins. They are Stormhammers with AP3 mauls, and a one-use S10 AP2 melee round. They are the new black, so expect them in Allied detachments as well as primary armies. Not much we can do except spam plasma into them, Henchmen or IG are great at this. The T5 for BTB rule they have is especially annoying, psycannon and storm bolter will just drip off them. Slow though, like all TDA, so once they land back up and shoot them. Melee warbands are a good way to maul them, although the storm shields mean there will probably be a few left to win combat.

 

Deathwing: Twin-linked storm bolter on the drop, and a twin-linked heavy as well (CML and assault cannon aren't as powerful as plasma cannon though). They'll find use in a Doublewing or Deathwing list, but outside of that there are cheaper Allied ways to get plasma, or even use in-faction Devastators.

 

Other stuff: Either standard Mehreen issue with slighter cheaper costings, or worthless (Company Veterans).

 

Troops:

 

Tacs: 5-man heavy weapon squads is all you will see. They are cheap though, 'VOTLW' generic CSM cheap (they miss out on the melee and Marks, but get better heavy weapons and spammable 5-man units instead). Regular SM players don't take full Tac squads because they want to. With that restriction removed, no one will be taking 10-man squads. Likely heavy weapons are plasma cannon or lascannon. Flakk missiles are a complete joke, ignore the internet circle-jerk over it. Powerfist price for a single autocannon round against Flyers is worthless garbage.

 

Bolter Banner makes these guys interesting. I'm not convinced it will be a huge problem, because Salvo rules suck hard (and Servitor plasma cannons outrange them anyway), but you can get a tonne of cheap Tac bodies all spamming bolter shells faster than Knights. That can be a problem for Henchmen storm bolter squads, and for Knights. I say can...DK still wipes them out fine. They're not that cheap in any case.

 

Scouts: Terrible as always, moving on...

 

Fast Attack:

 

Black Knights: Urgh. CSM laugh when they see these guys, cover saves mean nothing to them with the dragon. For us, 2+ cover (when they combo with the terrible Darkshroud speeder) is a pain. Unless you roll 'Ignore Cover' on Coteaz or an Inquisitor, we have to Ally in a solution or tie them down in melee. BA Baal Preds with flamestorm are a pretty good option, AV13 means they don't care about the mass plasma rounds and a single blast will wipe the unit. Engaging in melee is harder, Interceptors are going to need to hide then get the jump on them. DK is screwed, that much AP2 will kill him in a single Shooting phase. S5 Rending melee means Strikes want nothing to do with these guys, although Purifiers will halberd them down just fine.

 

Ravenwing: Min units with melta for slagging tanks just like last edition, they're still bad in melee and not cost-effective shooting.

 

Darkshroud: Zoom zoom, 3+ cover save and 2+ for its friends. It's stupidly overpriced for a speeder, a PsyDread will shred it fairly easily. Kill it first, then shoot up the Black Knights/Ravenwing clustered near it.

 

Nephilium HerpDerp: S6 missiles...yeah no one cares. PsyDreads will shred this AV11 joke, as will a single Icarus or quad-gun. It has a twin-las, but then so does our Raven, and its a powerfist between the two in price (lel).

 

Dark Talon: S5 AP- blast, hurricane sponsons, and the one-use large blast 'everyone is I1' bomb. Amusing, its still overpriced and gets murdered as easily as the Nephilium. Raven will rofl right over this joke, its annoying if it gets the stasis bomb off first but otherwise meh.

 

Other stuff: Assault Mehreens remain terrible, Landspeeders are Landspeeders...eh

 

Heavy Support:

 

Devastators: After so many years of obscurity...finally. Lascannons or plasma cannons for these guys, flakk missiles don't stop being an overpriced joke when spammed. You can even go full squad for ablative wounds and they still aren't that expensive. The new Havoks for Mehreens. Eat with Interceptors or DK.

 

Pred: They increased the price of the Auto-Las...herp derp, Devs are better anyway

 

Whirlwind: Murders Henchmen, none of our other stuff cares though

 

Vindicator: Decent price, but one-gun syndrome

 

Land Raiders: Put a Vindicare in your list. Laugh

 

Land Speeder Vengeance: Three plasma blasts or one large blast...PsyDread still murders it before it makes range

 

 

tl;dr

 

Take:

- PsyDreads: Wreck the new AV11 stuff

- Vindicare: If they actually bring a Land Raider, also good for sniping wounds off heroes

- Servitor plasma cannons: Plenty of Terminators and Bikers to murder, why not?

- Purifiers: You outrange the plasma talons, only DW units can sweep you in melee

- Interceptors: Good for getting rid of the backfield stuff like Devs or Tacs

- DK: Still murders Terminators fine, avoid Black Knights/DW Knights like the plague though

 

Avoid:

- Terminator blob: So much plasma coming your way, they're just not cost-effective

- Paladins: You'll get your teeth kicked in by DW Knights and so much plasma, again not cost-effective

- Rhino/Razorspam: Cheaper heavy weapon platforms+access, plasma everywhere, AV11 is not going to last long

[saffo]

I dont have the codex, but was reading at GW and noticed that they can also twin link everything the turn they drop.

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't forget the Bolter 2/4 Slavo banner! Which can be stuck in a LR, so it can't be sniped, and allows it's 6" range to be from the LR hull.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I dont have the codex, but was reading at GW and noticed that they can also twin link everything the turn they drop.

 

 

 

That's only Deathwing, and they only get one heavy weapon per squad regardless of size. Re-rollable storm bolter is nice (as we know), but I wouldn't say its overpoweringly amazing. The squad plasma cannon, as I noted, is going to be a bigger problem (CML doesn't do a whole lot to us, as we field little armour, assault cannon murders Henchmen but otherwise eh). They do get Divination Librarians for dirt-cheap (even in TDA), so its pretty easy to get re-rolls every turn.

 

Doublewing is probably going to see 5-man Deathwing spamming plasma cannons, whilst the Ravenwing pack melta for opening up vehicles and for tying stuff down early.

 

 

 

Don't forget the Bolter 2/4 Slavo banner! Which can be stuck in a LR, so it can't be sniped, and allows it's 6" range to be from the LR hull.

 

Did mention it briefly. Again, its more S4 AP5. It makes them basically cheaper Noise Marines, which I guess isn't a bad way to use Tacs. The LR can be Vindicare sniped or DK'd though, not to mention if a Raven flies over and melta's it. Getting rid of the Command Squad isn't that hard once you open up their ride.

 

That

[Gumo9]

I dont have the codex, but was reading at GW and noticed that they can also twin link everything the turn they drop.

 

 

 

That's only Deathwing, and they only get one heavy weapon per squad regardless of size. Re-rollable storm bolter is nice (as we know), but I wouldn't say its overpoweringly amazing. The squad plasma cannon, as I noted, is going to be a bigger problem (CML doesn't do a whole lot to us, as we field little armour, assault cannon murders Henchmen but otherwise eh). They do get Divination Librarians for dirt-cheap (even in TDA), so its pretty easy to get re-rolls every turn.

 

Doublewing is probably going to see 5-man Deathwing spamming plasma cannons, whilst the Ravenwing pack melta for opening up vehicles and for tying stuff down early.

 

 

 

Don't forget the Bolter 2/4 Slavo banner! Which can be stuck in a LR, so it can't be sniped, and allows it's 6" range to be from the LR hull.

 

Did mention it briefly. Again, its more S4 AP5. It makes them basically cheaper Noise Marines, which I guess isn't a bad way to use Tacs. The LR can be Vindicare sniped or DK'd though, not to mention if a Raven flies over and melta's it. Getting rid of the Command Squad isn't that hard once you open up their ride.

 

That

 

Deathwing can have up to 10 models and can take a heavy weapon for each 5. That means two heavy weapons in a 10 man squad. Are you thinking of another unit?

 

G

 

[Gentlemanloser]

Not to doubt you, but all the info i've read is that DW TDA are limited to a single Heavy.

 

My mate picked up the Codex today, so i'll get my hands on it soon. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Nah he's right, I checked, it is 1 per 5 dudes. Sorry about that, I'll change the OP accordingly.

 

I was thinking of the Deathwing Command squad most likely, as they are stuck at 5-man.

[Gentlemanloser]

Maybe it's the relationship with Split Fire then? :/

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah maybe. Split Fire is an interesting rule, although what I don't get is why they didn't just implement Combat Squads? Every other DA unit seems to have it.

[Vash]

- Sammael: He's basically the same as before, except now they remembered IC status so he'll be in Ravenwing units hiding. Stated immunity to ID is a pain, but he's only in PA, so massed halberd wounds will do him in (or even massed psycannon). A DK can take him on pretty easily, again AP3 melee.

He wont be coming alone to a fight. Most likely with a gang of angry bikers of some sort. His adimantine mantle gives him eternal warrior, thus killing him wont be the easiest task, even with his 3+/4++ save. Remember that we dont fight a single model and toss in what we want against it. Consider what the DA player will do. And DO NOT expect to get a charge on him unless you have superior tactical moves over your DA player. Sammel is made for agility, thus he makes the charges, not the other way around.

 

- Other named HQ's: Overpriced, 'Mind Worm' on Ezekiel is annoying but our Aegis should help out there, AP3 melee makes them all irrelevant in challenges.

And why is AP 3 irrelevant? Sure many of us play GKTs, but there are those who play PAGK. And not all of us equip a warding stave as a standard.

The mind worm power is something to be afraid of. Sure we have psychic protection, but I wouldnt count on it. Aegis give -1 to Ld when casting, and later we have a 5+ save against it. In my book not much to hang on to, but better than nothing :)

Again, This character wont be targeting units he cant handle. He will most likely be supported/joined by something that will complement him perfectly.

 

 

- Command squads: Pricier version of below generics, used for unlocking the various Banners.

The command squads are not as useless as it seems.

The Deathwing command has access to Halberd of Caliban, a S6 AP2 melee weapon. Not to shabby if you ask me. Coupled with some Thunder hammer and stom shields, and a plasma cannon and this unit wrecks havoc as it comes into play. A unit with that setting is around 250 pts.

The Ravenwing command squad are a few points cheaper than their black knight counter parts. Though the command squad doesnt have a sergeant/champion from start, it doesnt really matter as the champion provides nothing really. No extra attacks, nor better Ld. He has access to a power weapon.

Anyhow, the ravenwing command is a cheaper version of the Black knights if you dont bother with more than 3 models.

I have seen people tossing around the idea to make a unit of characters combined with a ravenwing command.

- Sammel

- Librarian (with power field generator 4++ save to all within 3") on bike

- 2 Tech marines, on bike and an auspex

- Ravenwing command with apothecary

Thats around 535 pts. High price for few models. But they are T5, Fast moving, 4 plasma weapons or 3 plasma weapons and 1 ravenwing grenade launcher with debuff, psyker with divination, 4++ save to all, 3+ cover save if they turbo boost (skilled riders), feel no pain, rending attacks combined with some AP2 attacks (servo arm x2, Sammel sword AP2)

Deathwing Knights: Urgh. They're only marginally more expensive than our Knight blob, and cheaper than Paladins. They are Stormhammers with AP3 mauls, and a one-use S10 AP2 melee round. They are the new black, so expect them in Allied detachments as well as primary armies. Not much we can do except spam plasma into them, Henchmen or IG are great at this. The T5 for BTB rule they have is especially annoying, psycannon and storm bolter will just drip off them. Slow though, like all TDA, so once they land back up and shoot them. Melee warbands are a good way to maul them, although the storm shields mean there will probably be a few left to win combat.

Their mauls are AP4, not AP3 So they are not going to be used as much as believed I guess. But then again... how much combat does terminators see where they need AP2? I would guess once or twice. So the one time use is okey. Against 3+ they are not really optimal. Higher strength and toughness will be their advantage.

Bolter Banner makes these guys interesting. I'm not convinced it will be a huge problem, because Salvo rules suck hard (and Servitor plasma cannons outrange them anyway), but you can get a tonne of cheap Tac bodies all spamming bolter shells faster than Knights. That can be a problem for Henchmen storm bolter squads, and for Knights. I say can...DK still wipes them out fine. They're not that cheap in any case.

On to the Bolterbanner. DA players are looking at this in another way. Ravenwing command squad again comes into play. Banner of devastation (making the bolter salvo as mensioned. 2/4).

Coupled with a full unit of DA ravenwing bikers. As they are relentless, they can move fully and shoot salvo shots. Some are going all out on this, and has the ravenwing command in the middle, with one full ravenwing bike squad on each side of it. Thats 48 shots, twin-linked for 322 pts (only the ravenwing bikers not command squad). Not the optimal setting imo, but its something DA players are cooking up.

Black Knights: Urgh. CSM laugh when they see these guys, cover saves mean nothing to them with the dragon. For us, 2+ cover (when they combo with the terrible Darkshroud speeder) is a pain. Unless you roll 'Ignore Cover' on Coteaz or an Inquisitor, we have to Ally in a solution or tie them down in melee. BA Baal Preds with flamestorm are a pretty good option, AV13 means they don't care about the mass plasma rounds and a single blast will wipe the unit. Engaging in melee is harder, Interceptors are going to need to hide then get the jump on them. DK is screwed, that much AP2 will kill him in a single Shooting phase. S5 Rending melee means Strikes want nothing to do with these guys, although Purifiers will halberd them down just fine.

Again, Black knights will not come alone. Coupled with a librarian or a tech marine, this locks up a power field generator, granting the unit (or atleast the front line ones) 4++ save. The Helldrake can come. He will do damage, but not as easy as he wants. Also, as Black knights are scouts, they will in many cases vs CSM outflank. The helldrake needs to go into skimmer mode to fire at them, since they will be in the CSM deployment, trying to avoid the Helldrake.

This unit is something power armoured and terminator armies should look out for. They will shred anything to pieces if they catch you. They can be 10 man strong, and access to ravenwing grenade launchers, which lowers your toughness and weapon skill by 1. Rending attacks as mensioned, and 4 attacks on the charge... and they will charge.

Purifiers will take them down yes. But there is a problem with that. Purifiers are not fast enough to catch them. And if you do charge them, there will be overwatch fire with plasma (probably re-roll with a librarian attached). And if you reach close combat, there will be a chance that there will be a power field generator granting 4++ save. Now the problem is... this generator gives friend and foe 4++ save within 3". But that could be soved. Bikes have long bases. Keeping the character with the field generator in the back will make him be in range of his own models, but outside enemy models. Wont work all the time, but expect it to be abused.

Ravenwing: Min units with melta for slagging tanks just like last edition, they're still bad in melee and not cost-effective shooting.

But then again. High speed, good toughness and the ability to lock units in combat pretty fast. A unit of 6 bikers with 2 plasmaguns costs less than 200 pts.

For that you get 2 plasma guns, and 4 (6 if they dont use plasma) twin-linked boltguns. At rapid fire range, where they should be pretty fast, they dish out 4 plasmashots, 8 twin-linked bolter shots. Not much perhaps, but compaired to our scoring unit PAGKs (and yes the bikers can be scoring wich they will be if the DA player goes for them), you get 9 PAGKs and one of them has a psycannon. 16 bolter shots and 2-4 psycannon shots.

DA will kill 3 power armours models, and PAGK will kill 2.5 - 3 models (calculated on models in the open and in line of sight). Throw in a full unit of PAGKs to make it more realistic, the DA will add an attack bike or land speeder.

I for one will not overlook these guys at all. Objectives are key in 6th edition. Having access to fast moving scoring units will be a big advantage.

 

Landspeeders are Landspeeders...eh

Massed speeders combined with other high priority targets will make them less "eh".

Sure they blow up fast. But they can be scoring (if bought with the ravenwing attack squadron), and have nice range (typhoon launcher), and standard GK doesnt have much range to counter it. Sure the dread is up to the fight, but he costs more and isnt the one chosing where the fight will be, will he?

I for one will not lauch over the Heavy 2 AP3 typhoon missiles. Not the most point effective vehicle against GK, but if there are any rhinos/light vehicles they should not show them self openly.

 

Land Raiders: Put a Vindicare in your list. Laugh

He he... Vindicare really messes up the use of vehicles. :)

Land Speeder Vengeance: Three plasma blasts or one large blast...PsyDread still murders it before it makes range

Large big #bleep# cannons and range 24"? well and not enough with that either, its overpriced too!

I wont be expecting to see these to be honest. They are one hit wounders at best.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

He wont be coming alone to a fight. Most likely with a gang of angry bikers of some sort. His adimantine mantle gives him eternal warrior, thus killing him wont be the easiest task, even with his 3+/4++ save. Remember that we dont fight a single model and toss in what we want against it. Consider what the DA player will do. And DO NOT expect to get a charge on him unless you have superior tactical moves over your DA player. Sammel is made for agility, thus he makes the charges, not the other way around.

Nah, we don't get a charge, but he'll fly around dumping his plasma cannon into stuff, which is annoying (plus he is immune to PsyDread even on his own). Probably Vindicare him with a Shieldbreaker, then send in the DK to catch him and finish him off. I was basing my prior analysis on what would happen if he charged us ie Purifier/Terminator halberds will wreck him and the Bikers he is with.

And why is AP 3 irrelevant? Sure many of us play GKTs, but there are those who play PAGK. And not all of us equip a warding stave as a standard.

AP3 is fine on units, on characters it is terrible because of 2+ saves. Almost all our HQ's possess 2+ armour, or can upgrade to it. And of course, Paladins and Terminators rofl at your power sword in melee.

The mind worm power is something to be afraid of. Sure we have psychic protection, but I wouldnt count on it. Aegis give -1 to Ld when casting, and later we have a 5+ save against it. In my book not much to hang on to, but better than nothing

Don't forget psychic hood, if you got one in the list. I agree though, 6th edition has completely nerfed psychic defense due to the changes. Mind Worm is annoying but its not nearly as good as the other buff powers he can get.

The Deathwing command has access to Halberd of Caliban, a S6 AP2 melee weapon. Not to shabby if you ask me. Coupled with some Thunder hammer and stom shields, and a plasma cannon and this unit wrecks havoc as it comes into play. A unit with that setting is around 250 pts.

If he takes the halberd, he can't get a storm shield. Also he only has two attacks, unless he is under one of the Banners that gives more. Hammer+shield is still better. Plasma cannon will be clutch. I wasn't suggesting the Command squads are bad, but the same principles regarding Deathwing or Ravenwing units apply to them.

Anyhow, the ravenwing command is a cheaper version of the Black knights if you dont bother with more than 3 models.

3 models that will get shot off the board pretty easily. At least the Deathwing one comes with 5 guys and in Stormhammer pattern. 3 Bikers is just too easy to remove.

I have seen people tossing around the idea to make a unit of characters combined with a ravenwing command.

- Sammel

- Librarian (with power field generator 4++ save to all within 3") on bike

- 2 Tech marines, on bike and an auspex

- Ravenwing command with apothecary

Thats around 535 pts. High price for few models. But they are T5, Fast moving, 4 plasma weapons or 3 plasma weapons and 1 ravenwing grenade launcher with debuff, psyker with divination, 4++ save to all, 3+ cover save if they turbo boost (skilled riders), feel no pain, rending attacks combined with some AP2 attacks (servo arm x2, Sammel sword AP2)

Lol. Yes, please spend that many points on Bikers and characters. Wow...meanwhile, any Terminator blob in the game is cheaper and curb stomps that unit in melee handily. Against shooting they only have a 4++ against plasma cannons and other high Strength that doesn't care about the T5 and 3+ armour. It's a terrible idea.

Their mauls are AP4, not AP3 So they are not going to be used as much as believed I guess. But then again... how much combat does terminators see where they need AP2? I would guess once or twice. So the one time use is okey. Against 3+ they are not really optimal. Higher strength and toughness will be their advantage.

Ah, my bad, forgot they only go to AP3 against spikey mehreens. One-use railgun stats in melee is nice, but it is one-use. Stormhammers are just more consistent in melee.

On to the Bolterbanner. DA players are looking at this in another way. Ravenwing command squad again comes into play. Banner of devastation (making the bolter salvo as mensioned. 2/4).

Coupled with a full unit of DA ravenwing bikers. As they are relentless, they can move fully and shoot salvo shots. Some are going all out on this, and has the ravenwing command in the middle, with one full ravenwing bike squad on each side of it. Thats 48 shots, twin-linked for 322 pts (only the ravenwing bikers not command squad). Not the optimal setting imo, but its something DA players are cooking up.

As I mentioned, Ravenwing Command is probably the easiest of all to kill off. Ravenwing are expensive in any case, so whilst stacking the Banner onto their twin-bolters is nice, it is still just S4 AP5. I think added into a balanced list, the Bolter Banner will be pretty cool, but I see way too many players going full retard and building whole netlist armies around it (ie spamming Tacs or Ravenwing). But yeah, in a balanced army, its gonna be top on my Vindicare's sniping list.

Again, Black knights will not come alone. Coupled with a librarian or a tech marine, this locks up a power field generator, granting the unit (or atleast the front line ones) 4++ save. The Helldrake can come. He will do damage, but not as easy as he wants. Also, as Black knights are scouts, they will in many cases vs CSM outflank. The helldrake needs to go into skimmer mode to fire at them, since they will be in the CSM deployment, trying to avoid the Helldrake.

You are wasting a Librarian with an already expensive unit. The 4++ will save some of them, but he still takes out half the unit on average. All it may take is another bombing run or another fire support CSM unit (ie Oblits, Havoks) to finish off the rest of them. The fact they stand almost no chance of hurting the Heldrake is the real issue.

This unit is something power armoured and terminator armies should look out for. They will shred anything to pieces if they catch you. They can be 10 man strong, and access to ravenwing grenade launchers, which lowers your toughness and weapon skill by 1. Rending attacks as mensioned, and 4 attacks on the charge... and they will charge.

The 'nade launchers interest me, because functionally they are pretty redundant. If you are in plasma talon range, you are already wounding 90% of infantry on 2's or 3's. Rending melee is cute but they still aren't a melee unit, they are way better off Hit+Run out of melee and shooting you again with massed plasma. My issue with Black Knights is they are expensive Bikers who will die to cheap plasma cannons. Anything AP3 goes through them easily as well, ie Heldrake.

Purifiers will take them down yes. But there is a problem with that. Purifiers are not fast enough to catch them. And if you do charge them, there will be overwatch fire with plasma (probably re-roll with a librarian attached). And if you reach close combat, there will be a chance that there will be a power field generator granting 4++ save. Now the problem is... this generator gives friend and foe 4++ save within 3". But that could be soved. Bikes have long bases. Keeping the character with the field generator in the back will make him be in range of his own models, but outside enemy models. Wont work all the time, but expect it to be abused.

I'm not doing the charging, they are. My psycannons outrange them, and Purifiers are a lot more cost-effective. It is true that a decent sized Black Knight unit will plasma the Purifiers away, but they will take casualties from massed fire before then. When you charge in, I'll simply challenge the Libby out with the Flame Knight, halberd him, then the remaining halberds cut up the Black Knights. Even with a 10-man unit, I'm still likely to kill half them before they get to swing (between Overwatch and halberds).

For that you get 2 plasma guns, and 4 (6 if they dont use plasma) twin-linked boltguns. At rapid fire range, where they should be pretty fast, they dish out 4 plasmashots, 8 twin-linked bolter shots. Not much perhaps, but compaired to our scoring unit PAGKs (and yes the bikers can be scoring wich they will be if the DA player goes for them), you get 9 PAGKs and one of them has a psycannon. 16 bolter shots and 2-4 psycannon shots.

It really isn't. Both Henchmen and Purifiers outgun them, and even Strikes compare favourably (220 vs 200 is pretty close). I don't really care if they are scoring, they are an aggressive front-line unit that really needs to get into rapid-fire range and stay there to work (pot shotting from 24" is pretty meh, unless Bolter Banner). Knights dominate that midfield kind of battle.

I for one will not overlook these guys at all. Objectives are key in 6th edition. Having access to fast moving scoring units will be a big advantage.

If they live that long. Remember, it only matter who is on what at dice down. Knights have several turns to get into position and lock down the midfield to their advantage. You aren't going to dislodge them or deny them with a few Bikers (Ravenwing are more expensive than our infantry except Terminators/Paladins, so model count will be an issue for the DA player). i'm honestly more worried about scoring Deathwing turning up Turn 2 automatically and dumping plasma cannon into our stuff, followed by charges next turn.

Massed speeders combined with other high priority targets will make them less "eh".

Sure they blow up fast. But they can be scoring (if bought with the ravenwing attack squadron), and have nice range (typhoon launcher), and standard GK doesnt have much range to counter it. Sure the dread is up to the fight, but he costs more and isnt the one chosing where the fight will be, will he?

I for one will not lauch over the Heavy 2 AP3 typhoon missiles. Not the most point effective vehicle against GK, but if there are any rhinos/light vehicles they should not show them self openly.

No, it won't. Landspeeders are AV10, they're complete fodder for our PsyDreads. If you want anything except basic heavy bolter spam, they quickly jump in cost to around half a PsyDread at least. They won't be scoring either, they are vehicles.

It doesn't matter about 'choosing where the fight will be'. They both have range 48" weapons (assuming Typhoons, as anything else is outranged), except the PsyDread has twice the firepower and twin-linked, plus he is AV12 vs AV10. He'll trade extremely well with any Landspeeder squadron.

Knights don't field Rhinos or Razors anymore, due to the HP nerf. We never really needed transports anyway (we are better on foot pumping out dakka on the move), and Henchmen are better off spamming Acolyte wounds over a Chimera bunker these days (due to the changes regarding shooting from a vehicle). Landspeeders are going to be fighting primarily PsyDreads and maybe Ravens. In either matchup they are pretty woeful.

Large big #bleep# cannons and range 24"? well and not enough with that either, its overpriced too!

I wont be expecting to see these to be honest. They are one hit wounders at best.

The thing is, they variously gave them Stealth or Shrouded or auras or whatever...but the PsyDread is built to break cover saves anyway. AV10 is a real problem for all the new Speeders, as good as they might otherwise be, they are just too easily killed. Maybe against other armies they work, but Knights don't have a problem provided they bring PsyDreads.

[Vash]

Dont get me wrong I am a Grey Knight player my self. I think I got 6000 pts painted. Working on my henchmen army atm.

But as you say, alot of the DA things are easy to counter, IF you know your fighting them. In a tournament it wont be as easy. I for one dont own a single Psifel dread and I wont either as I dont like them at all. And the trend I have seen not many armies include psifel dreads anymore as a standard.

 

Alot of my suggestions are what I think, things that could affect us in some way of a good player. It is way to early to say what is good or bad in the DA codex.

I for one have a strong belief that black knights are great, even though they cost alot. In a vacuum they are outgunned and dead to almost anything. But where I play there is terrain, supporting units and probably an army synergy.

 

Challenges is all fine and dandy, but I dont really think a librarian attached to a black knight squad will accept any challanges. Pushing him to the back lines wont matter to him as his attacks are irrelevant from the massed attacks the knights have.

 

Anything will kill the DA, just like anything will kill any SM. There is nothing new to that fact. Plasma henchmen will still eat up terminators and power armours alike. Psycannons are still king. Psifel dreads still blow up AV10 to pieces. It all comes down to what you bring to a fight. I for one dont bring anti DA, anti my opponent lists. I bring balanced lists or tournament lists. There is no way I can counter every single piece DA can field.

Me personally, I will have issues with Long range, this would be Land speeder typhoons. Also the black knights will get the upper hand on me. Their speed and massed plasma will do alot of damage to my main units.

 

But my undergoing project with henchmen, might solve some of the long range issues. But I guess a good DA player will avoid line of sight from those few units.

[worloch]

 

Their mauls are AP4, not AP3 So they are not going to be used as much as believed I guess. But then again... how much combat does terminators see where they need AP2? I would guess once or twice. So the one time use is okey. Against 3+ they are not really optimal. Higher strength and toughness will be their advantage.

Ah, my bad, forgot they only go to AP3 against spikey mehreens. One-use railgun stats in melee is nice, but it is one-use. Stormhammers are just more consistent in melee.

 

Don't forget that the Master of the Death Knights is wielding the Flail of the Unforgiven, which is AP 3 all the time, and AP 2 against Chaos. That doesn't make a big difference in what has been stated already, but it does mean that between the DWK's innate durability (Possible To 5 and 3++) and relatively high damage output (Ws 5 and St 6), a single model throwing 3 attacks with St 6 and AP 3 is going to cut in to MEQ squads pretty quick.

[Gentlemanloser]

I have a feeling my new best friend is going to be;

 

Land Raider Crusader, Command Squad, Banner of Devestation, Techmarine, Power Field Generator.

 

This comes in at a whopping 500 points, but gives you a 3" bubble of 4++ save for and from the LRC, and an AV14 Tank that can fire 24 TL Bolter rounds per turn, with the ability to repair lost Hull Points.

 

Nasty! :P

[worloch]

I have a feeling my new best friend is going to be;

Land Raider Crusader, Command Squad, Banner of Devestation, Techmarine, Power Field Generator.

This comes in at a whopping 500 points, but gives you a 3" bubble of 4++ save for and from the LRC, and an AV14 Tank that can fire 24 TL Bolter rounds per turn, with the ability to repair lost Hull Points.

Nasty!

Don't forget to add Deathwing Vehicle upgrade, to give it the Venerable Dreadnought ability to force your opponent to reroll pen hit results you don't like :)

[Crynn]

- Sammael: He's basically the same as before, except now they remembered IC status so he'll be in Ravenwing units hiding. Stated immunity to ID is a pain, but he's only in PA, so massed halberd wounds will do him in (or even massed psycannon). A DK can take him on pretty easily, again AP3 melee.

He wont be coming alone to a fight. Most likely with a gang of angry bikers of some sort. His adimantine mantle gives him eternal warrior, thus killing him wont be the easiest task, even with his 3+/4++ save. Remember that we dont fight a single model and toss in what we want against it. Consider what the DA player will do. And DO NOT expect to get a charge on him unless you have superior tactical moves over your DA player. Sammel is made for agility, thus he makes the charges, not the other way around.

>>- Other named HQ's: Overpriced, 'Mind Worm' on Ezekiel is annoying but our Aegis should help out there, AP3 melee makes them all irrelevant in challenges.

And why is AP 3 irrelevant? Sure many of us play GKTs, but there are those who play PAGK. And not all of us equip a warding stave as a standard.

The mind worm power is something to be afraid of. Sure we have psychic protection, but I wouldnt count on it. Aegis give -1 to Ld when casting, and later we have a 5+ save against it. In my book not much to hang on to, but better than nothing

Again, This character wont be targeting units he cant handle. He will most likely be supported/joined by something that will complement him perfectly.

- Command squads: Pricier version of below generics, used for unlocking the various Banners.

The command squads are not as useless as it seems.

The Deathwing command has access to Halberd of Caliban, a S6 AP2 melee weapon. Not to shabby if you ask me. Coupled with some Thunder hammer and stom shields, and a plasma cannon and this unit wrecks havoc as it comes into play. A unit with that setting is around 250 pts.

The Ravenwing command squad are a few points cheaper than their black knight counter parts. Though the command squad doesnt have a sergeant/champion from start, it doesnt really matter as the champion provides nothing really. No extra attacks, nor better Ld. He has access to a power weapon.

Anyhow, the ravenwing command is a cheaper version of the Black knights if you dont bother with more than 3 models.

I have seen people tossing around the idea to make a unit of characters combined with a ravenwing command.

- Sammel

- Librarian (with power field generator 4++ save to all within 3") on bike

- 2 Tech marines, on bike and an auspex

- Ravenwing command with apothecary

Thats around 535 pts. High price for few models. But they are T5, Fast moving, 4 plasma weapons or 3 plasma weapons and 1 ravenwing grenade launcher with debuff, psyker with divination, 4++ save to all, 3+ cover save if they turbo boost (skilled riders), feel no pain, rending attacks combined with some AP2 attacks (servo arm x2, Sammel sword AP2)

Deathwing Knights: Urgh. They're only marginally more expensive than our Knight blob, and cheaper than Paladins. They are Stormhammers with AP3 mauls, and a one-use S10 AP2 melee round. They are the new black, so expect them in Allied detachments as well as primary armies. Not much we can do except spam plasma into them, Henchmen or IG are great at this. The T5 for BTB rule they have is especially annoying, psycannon and storm bolter will just drip off them. Slow though, like all TDA, so once they land back up and shoot them. Melee warbands are a good way to maul them, although the storm shields mean there will probably be a few left to win combat.

Their mauls are AP4, not AP3 So they are not going to be used as much as believed I guess. But then again... how much combat does terminators see where they need AP2? I would guess once or twice. So the one time use is okey. Against 3+ they are not really optimal. Higher strength and toughness will be their advantage.

Bolter Banner makes these guys interesting. I'm not convinced it will be a huge problem, because Salvo rules suck hard (and Servitor plasma cannons outrange them anyway), but you can get a tonne of cheap Tac bodies all spamming bolter shells faster than Knights. That can be a problem for Henchmen storm bolter squads, and for Knights. I say can...DK still wipes them out fine. They're not that cheap in any case.

On to the Bolterbanner. DA players are looking at this in another way. Ravenwing command squad again comes into play. Banner of devastation (making the bolter salvo as mensioned. 2/4).

Coupled with a full unit of DA ravenwing bikers. As they are relentless, they can move fully and shoot salvo shots. Some are going all out on this, and has the ravenwing command in the middle, with one full ravenwing bike squad on each side of it. Thats 48 shots, twin-linked for 322 pts (only the ravenwing bikers not command squad). Not the optimal setting imo, but its something DA players are cooking up.

Black Knights: Urgh. CSM laugh when they see these guys, cover saves mean nothing to them with the dragon. For us, 2+ cover (when they combo with the terrible Darkshroud speeder) is a pain. Unless you roll 'Ignore Cover' on Coteaz or an Inquisitor, we have to Ally in a solution or tie them down in melee. BA Baal Preds with flamestorm are a pretty good option, AV13 means they don't care about the mass plasma rounds and a single blast will wipe the unit. Engaging in melee is harder, Interceptors are going to need to hide then get the jump on them. DK is screwed, that much AP2 will kill him in a single Shooting phase. S5 Rending melee means Strikes want nothing to do with these guys, although Purifiers will halberd them down just fine.

Again, Black knights will not come alone. Coupled with a librarian or a tech marine, this locks up a power field generator, granting the unit (or atleast the front line ones) 4++ save. The Helldrake can come. He will do damage, but not as easy as he wants. Also, as Black knights are scouts, they will in many cases vs CSM outflank. The helldrake needs to go into skimmer mode to fire at them, since they will be in the CSM deployment, trying to avoid the Helldrake.

This unit is something power armoured and terminator armies should look out for. They will shred anything to pieces if they catch you. They can be 10 man strong, and access to ravenwing grenade launchers, which lowers your toughness and weapon skill by 1. Rending attacks as mensioned, and 4 attacks on the charge... and they will charge.

Purifiers will take them down yes. But there is a problem with that. Purifiers are not fast enough to catch them. And if you do charge them, there will be overwatch fire with plasma (probably re-roll with a librarian attached). And if you reach close combat, there will be a chance that there will be a power field generator granting 4++ save. Now the problem is... this generator gives friend and foe 4++ save within 3". But that could be soved. Bikes have long bases. Keeping the character with the field generator in the back will make him be in range of his own models, but outside enemy models. Wont work all the time, but expect it to be abused.

Ravenwing: Min units with melta for slagging tanks just like last edition, they're still bad in melee and not cost-effective shooting.

But then again. High speed, good toughness and the ability to lock units in combat pretty fast. A unit of 6 bikers with 2 plasmaguns costs less than 200 pts.

For that you get 2 plasma guns, and 4 (6 if they dont use plasma) twin-linked boltguns. At rapid fire range, where they should be pretty fast, they dish out 4 plasmashots, 8 twin-linked bolter shots. Not much perhaps, but compaired to our scoring unit PAGKs (and yes the bikers can be scoring wich they will be if the DA player goes for them), you get 9 PAGKs and one of them has a psycannon. 16 bolter shots and 2-4 psycannon shots.

DA will kill 3 power armours models, and PAGK will kill 2.5 - 3 models (calculated on models in the open and in line of sight). Throw in a full unit of PAGKs to make it more realistic, the DA will add an attack bike or land speeder.

I for one will not overlook these guys at all. Objectives are key in 6th edition. Having access to fast moving scoring units will be a big advantage.

Landspeeders are Landspeeders...eh

Massed speeders combined with other high priority targets will make them less "eh".

Sure they blow up fast. But they can be scoring (if bought with the ravenwing attack squadron), and have nice range (typhoon launcher), and standard GK doesnt have much range to counter it. Sure the dread is up to the fight, but he costs more and isnt the one chosing where the fight will be, will he?

I for one will not lauch over the Heavy 2 AP3 typhoon missiles. Not the most point effective vehicle against GK, but if there are any rhinos/light vehicles they should not show them self openly.

Land Raiders: Put a Vindicare in your list. Laugh

He he... Vindicare really messes up the use of vehicles.

Land Speeder Vengeance: Three plasma blasts or one large blast...PsyDread still murders it before it makes range

Large big #bleep# cannons and range 24"? well and not enough with that either, its overpriced too!

I wont be expecting to see these to be honest. They are one hit wounders at best.

Thank you for correcting the many missconceptions about the OP. Saves me feeling the need to do it. I feel you have hit the nail on the head with each point you've made.

Regarrds,

Crynn

[Vash]

@Crynn

 

I generally never look down on my "enemy/opponent". Once I do that I will probably overlook something. What I do is, I read through the codex in question and make several lists of my own. What would I include, what combination would worketc. 

 

Building an anti-Dark angels army isnt hard, heck it isnt hard to build an anti-X army list. 

The hard part is to make an army list well balanced for any encounter. 

Example, if I know I will face orks with lots of infantry and trukks. I will bring any horde weapons such as incinerators and purifiers. But against DA these choices are not the optimum. Here we need a different setting. 

I dont know... it might be just me. But I dont play anti-army lists even if I know who I am facing. I always imagine my self playing a game as it was a tournament game facing random armies. 

[adamv6]

 

I dont know... it might be just me. But I dont play anti-army lists even if I know who I am facing. I always imagine my self playing a game as it was a tournament game facing random armies. 

 

+1

 

I arrange games for a points value with my opponents and never ask what army they are taking, I just field what I want to play.  Sometimes I get my backside handed to me, other times I roll through my opponent in 3 turns.  Most of the time we go down to the wire, which is just how I like it.

 

"Sculpting" of lists drives me mad.  Anyone who does it to me gets the works when I play them, every dirty trick I can pull I will do.

 

I have already played the new DA's with a list I was using last year, and took them to pieces.  Vindicare, LRR, Dreadknight and a solo Psyrifle Dread all worked brilliantly for me.

[Crynn]

@Crynn

 

I generally never look down on my "enemy/opponent". Once I do that I will probably overlook something. What I do is, I read through the codex in question and make several lists of my own. What would I include, what combination would worketc. 

 

Building an anti-Dark angels army isnt hard, heck it isnt hard to build an anti-X army list. 

The hard part is to make an army list well balanced for any encounter. 

Example, if I know I will face orks with lots of infantry and trukks. I will bring any horde weapons such as incinerators and purifiers. But against DA these choices are not the optimum. Here we need a different setting. 

I dont know... it might be just me. But I dont play anti-army lists even if I know who I am facing. I always imagine my self playing a game as it was a tournament game facing random armies. 

I don't know what your refering to. I never wrote anything about tayloring armies. I commented on another persons post which disagreed with part of analysis of the Dark angels codex. I agreed with the statements said within their post. I don't understand why your post was directed to me.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

 as you say, alot of the DA things are easy to counter, IF you know your fighting them. In a tournament it wont be as easy. I for one dont own a single Psifel dread and I wont either as I dont like them at all. And the trend I have seen not many armies include psifel dreads anymore as a standard.

 

That is your choice, but I'm telling you now, they are still 100% our best Heavy Support choice. 

 

 

Challenges is all fine and dandy, but I dont really think a librarian attached to a black knight squad will accept any challanges. Pushing him to the back lines wont matter to him as his attacks are irrelevant from the massed attacks the knights have.

 

That works for me too. The Black Knights don't ignore armour saves (except on 6's), and their only guy with AP3/AP2 can't attack. Against Purifiers, Terminators or a DK, I'm perfectly happy to slice up the squad to ribbons and eat the Librarian next round. Black Talons are going to be gunning for Strikes or shooty Henchmen in any case I imagine. 

 

 

 There is no way I can counter every single piece DA can field.

 

Yes there is. You can bring a balanced list that has something to counter everything. As a checklist, this is what I do to my lists;

 

- Anti-infantry: Preferably 36"+, 24" minimum, emphasis on lots of shots and/or blasts

- Anti-transport: Preferably 48", 24" minimum, emphasis on lots of shots, S6 minimum

- Anti-heavy tank: Melta is king, although other substitues work (railguns, lascannons). Melee is okay provided it is on a fast unit who can deliver it before it dies to enemy fire (ie DK)

- Anti-MC: Plasma is king, although between your anti-transport and anti-heavy tank, you should have the tools to kill stuff like Trygons, Princes, Tyrants, Tervigons etc. Melee is acceptable provided you have some way of either reliably wounding (ie powerfist) or causing specific ID (ie force weapon). 

- Anti-multiple wounds: S8 is key, Nurgle Oblits are a rare case where it won't work, but both Paladins and Nob Bikers hate S8. This is quite matchup dependant, some lists never have them, others are built around them. Melee is probably a better option, powerfists and force weapons work great. 

- Anti-2+: Again, this is rather Marine specific, but it is impossible to not face Marines at some point in a tournament, and they will have Terminators of some kind. Plasma is again king. Melee is a big tradeoff, you'll generally lose whatever you send in to counter them. 

 

As you can see, there are various overlaps. The lower band of anti-transport (S6 and S7) can be turned on infantry with pretty good results, as multiple shots work fine. Plasma murders infantry, 2+ saves, will maul multi-wound units, and has utility against AV11. Anti-heavy tank is still useful at chipping wounds off 2+ saves, multi-wound models and MC's, although its mostly worthless against normal infantry. 

 

Due to Allies, there are no valid reasons why you can't get all of those happening. You will face issues with saturation (ie not enough of certain types of weaponry), but your opponents are in the same boat. 1.5k list exemplify this, they prevent true spam from really occuring, and they advantage armies with strong default Troops. 

 

 

Don't forget that the Master of the Death Knights is wielding the Flail of the Unforgiven, which is AP 3 all the time, and AP 2 against Chaos. That doesn't make a big difference in what has been stated already, but it does mean that between the DWK's innate durability (Possible To 5 and 3++) and relatively high damage output (Ws 5 and St 6), a single model throwing 3 attacks with St 6 and AP 3 is going to cut in to MEQ squads pretty quick.

 

Yeah, they are really more of a tarpit compared to normal Stormhammers. 

 

 

 

 

Land Raider Crusader, Command Squad, Banner of Devestation, Techmarine, Power Field Generator.

 

 

 

Lol, the 4+ invul is going to make it a lot tougher. For a 500 point contingent, that isn't too bad. Destroying the LR is going to be a pain for armies without melta or railgun, and even then you still have to wipe out the squad. 

 

 

I just wanna clarify, I'm not saying you have to tailor lists to beat DA. I'm simply pointing out what will work best, against unit X. They aren't terribly different from regular Marines, despite all the cool rules and new stuff. Knights are pretty anti-MeQ in the first place, so provided you don't bring something truly crazy (combat Servitor spam might lose, for example), you should do well. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

That is your choice, but I'm telling you now, they are still 100% our best Heavy Support choice.

 

Pfft!  NDKs!

 

NDK > Dread

 

;)

[number6]

Reclusiarch Darius, on 29 Jan 2013 - 18:22, said:

Quote

There is no way I can counter every single piece DA can field.

Yes there is. You can bring a balanced list that has something to counter everything. As a checklist, this is what I do to my lists;

- Anti-infantry: Preferably 36"+, 24" minimum, emphasis on lots of shots and/or blasts

- Anti-transport: Preferably 48", 24" minimum, emphasis on lots of shots, S6 minimum

- Anti-heavy tank: Melta is king, although other substitues work (railguns, lascannons). Melee is okay provided it is on a fast unit who can deliver it before it dies to enemy fire (ie DK)

- Anti-MC: Plasma is king, although between your anti-transport and anti-heavy tank, you should have the tools to kill stuff like Trygons, Princes, Tyrants, Tervigons etc. Melee is acceptable provided you have some way of either reliably wounding (ie powerfist) or causing specific ID (ie force weapon).

- Anti-multiple wounds: S8 is key, Nurgle Oblits are a rare case where it won't work, but both Paladins and Nob Bikers hate S8. This is quite matchup dependant, some lists never have them, others are built around them. Melee is probably a better option, powerfists and force weapons work great.

- Anti-2+: Again, this is rather Marine specific, but it is impossible to not face Marines at some point in a tournament, and they will have Terminators of some kind. Plasma is again king. Melee is a big tradeoff, you'll generally lose whatever you send in to counter them.

As you can see, there are various overlaps. The lower band of anti-transport (S6 and S7) can be turned on infantry with pretty good results, as multiple shots work fine. Plasma murders infantry, 2+ saves, will maul multi-wound units, and has utility against AV11. Anti-heavy tank is still useful at chipping wounds off 2+ saves, multi-wound models and MC's, although its mostly worthless against normal infantry.

Due to Allies, there are no valid reasons why you can't get all of those happening. You will face issues with saturation (ie not enough of certain types of weaponry), but your opponents are in the same boat. 1.5k list exemplify this, they prevent true spam from really occuring, and they advantage armies with strong default Troops.

Brilliant breakdown of all-comers list building.

[Vash]

@Crynn 

Ops I might have written the answer a bit cryptical :D Wasnt meant as pointing you out in any way :D

 

@Reclusiarch Darius

Well, I cant agree with you I am so sorry. Where I play, believe it or not, Psifel dreads are nothing in comparison to a NDK. There are to many anti dread weapons or tactics here. My lists wont ever contain enough vehicles to have the dreads safe from anti-tank weapons. Sure 48" is great, but I am not alone to have 48" weapons. 
I have not seen a single Psifel dread here for a long time. And there are many GK players here. They do own them, but that was back in the 5th edition days. 

What I meant with that I cant counter every single thing DA can dish out, is that I cant counter all combos, units, tactics, in one single tournament list. What if, just what if, this DA list I am facing is a anti GK list, or even perhaps anti my GK list. 
When I build a list, I do take account to all the factors given by you and more. But there are factors I can't add in. Tactics of my opponent, decoys, what mission to be played. And we play more than just the handful missions in the BRB. 

 

Anyhow, from my understanding from reading on various forums, people dont take into account that some tactics or army list settings doesnt work at their gaming community. There is no right or wrong imo when it comes to chosing your units, as long as you can make it work for you. 

I for one never used an Exorcist with my sisters of Battle, even though alot of people said you couldnt play SoB without it... (this forum acctually was one of them). 

I can say I didnt lose many battles with my SoB, and in the later years I was "banned" to play them in friendly games. Yes, I power played them...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Psyflemen have lost a lot of their value in 6th edition and mostly due to hull points. Three glances and they are toast... It's not that hard to do for a lot of armies.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Pfft! NDKs!

NDK > Dread

Don't get me wrong, my DK is my favourite model by far. He is MVP every game. The reason I don't think he is no.1 is because of his cost. Even with no guns (just the sword+teleporter), you are already more than a Termie squad and close to Landraider price. It's a big chunk of points, at any level.

PsyDreads can be squeezed into any list, even 1k, and they do consistent damage without ever moving from your DZ. They also kill Flyers pretty efficiently (the new black), and they free up psycannons from having to be used on enemy vehicles. For the price of a sword+teleporter+incinerator DK, I can get two PsyDreads.

Brilliant breakdown of all-comers list building.

Thanks man :)

Well, I cant agree with you I am so sorry. Where I play, believe it or not, Psifel dreads are nothing in comparison to a NDK. There are to many anti dread weapons or tactics here. My lists wont ever contain enough vehicles to have the dreads safe from anti-tank weapons. Sure 48" is great, but I am not alone to have 48" weapons.

I have not seen a single Psifel dread here for a long time. And there are many GK players here. They do own them, but that was back in the 5th edition days.

Okay, I think you are suffering from a misconception about 40k.

Nothing matters except Troops. If you opponent kills all your support but you still get more Troops on more objectives by dice down, you win. The only mission where Troops don't matter (Purge), the focus instead switches to 'who can get First Blood and keep up in the KP race'. Knights have zero problem trading well, unless your opponent really tailors his list (ie plasma cannon spam or something equally lopsided), and we have excellent scoring options between our codex and Allies.

Your PsyDreads will last till Turn 3 in a good game. I've had the misfortune of losing mine earlier, but Turn 3 seems to be the sweet spot. With that in mind, prioritize targets and make him work for the kill. Use terrain, your massive range (48" is huge on standard tables) and your inbuilt advantages (AV12, immobilise being largely meaningless, 3HP, 'Fortitude' keeping you shooting and moving). If you aren't passive and reactive, but aggressive and mobile, you can keep them alive till Turn 3 at least. Lack of other vehicles is a problem, but that is why you bring Terminators, to draw fire.

As to your other assertion, 'no one uses PsyDreads', your local meta means nothing. I guarantee if they (and you) field PsyDreads even once, they'll be fielding them forevermore. It's that good.

What I meant with that I cant counter every single thing DA can dish out, is that I cant counter all combos, units, tactics, in one single tournament list. What if, just what if, this DA list I am facing is a anti GK list, or even perhaps anti my GK list.

Yes, you can. DA have a few new tricks (urgh...so much plasma), but they are still just Marines. They are MeQ. Think carefully about the combo's or units that give you the most grief, then consider how you counter. This is the bread and butter of competitive 40k. There is no perfect list, but you can by trial and error work out better ones.

Another thing. Recently, a guy won a tournament with a hybrid Sisters list (which prompted them all to come out of the woodwork and claim the army is 'competitive' again). He didn't win because his list was super powerful, or even that well suited to the meta (I personally think it was a pretty average list). He won because he is a superb player (all other factors held the same). Be a better general, and you can make anything work. Henchmen+Sisters look terrible to me on paper, but he made it work.

When I build a list, I do take account to all the factors given by you and more. But there are factors I can't add in. Tactics of my opponent, decoys, what mission to be played. And we play more than just the handful missions in the BRB.

Well yeah. This is a very complex game, nobody expects you to perfectly counter every list or playstyle (remember, the same list in the hands of different people plays completely differently). The baseline is A: don't build terrible lists and B: play your best. Beyond that, pray to the Dice Gods.

Anyhow, from my understanding from reading on various forums, people dont take into account that some tactics or army list settings doesnt work at their gaming community. There is no right or wrong imo when it comes to chosing your units, as long as you can make it work for you.

Local meta is a concern for you, but really only for you and others in that environment. Also, for all the variance, there are genuinely terrible lists, units and playstyles out there, irrespective of the local meta. I agree that a lot of Knight units are good enough to work if you play well and use them correctly, but we still have a few bad eggs (Stern etc). Just play more games and you'll figure it out.

I for one never used an Exorcist with my sisters of Battle, even though alot of people said you couldnt play SoB without it... (this forum acctually was one of them).

I can say I didnt lose many battles with my SoB, and in the later years I was "banned" to play them in friendly games. Yes, I power played them...

Lol, they banned you from playing Sisters, without and Exorcist? Are your local players insane? Tell them to get bent, its a legit army.

Are you using old codex or new WD codex? I suspect you might be disappointed by the newer rules.