Green Mehreens: A Handy Guide

[Vash]

Well I am not going into debating anymore. We dont share, and never will, the same optinion. Which is good. But what really bothers me, is neither of us really understands the other party. I would acctually prefer to meet eye to eye and discuss things like this. And preferably play a game or two :)

My favorite players have been players I have met online (from swedish forums), whom I have met and exchanged our ideas and dissagreements.

And in many cases, both of us have been right, due to the fact that the opposing force really changes the tactics and prefered units to be taken.

 

You are thinking atm I dont understand the game basics... which insults me acctually. Of course I understand that scoring units is number one in the game these days. And trust me... I have tried every single unit in the GK dex more than three times and not looking down on them at all (yes I have tried Crowe, and I am one of those who doesnt think he blows when used right).

Concerning the amount of games I have played... I do have enough imo (in my prime 10+ games a week, now days 1-3  a week. Family comes first these days), to have my own opinion about the psifel dread and how it works with my play style and many others (mainly where I play though).

 

And trust me again... players here dont favour the Psifel dreads as much as they did before in 5th edition. And my impresion is that neither does the B&C community. But for you and for many others the Psifel dreads are still a deadly force to be reconned with. It all comes down on how you utilize him (and of course what your opponent brings and handles him (this is where I think we have our biggest difference... Where I play, once anyone sees a psifel dread, it is dead dead dead in turn 1 or 2. Again it is all situational. It could survive a whole game etc etc, but in general they dont live long, and seldom get a chance to do much intended damage.)).

I have a friend who acctually use them. But he never really wins... not because of the psifel dreads though. They acctually do pretty well. But due to his love for certain units or models. He fields what he likes for the day.

 

Concerning the SoB, I should have added that it was my friends (friendly games was to vague) who didnt want me to play SoB. The gaming community I play in is over 50 players. They cant bann me or anyone for that matter to play what they want. And they are usually more evil than me when making army lists.

But even so, even if they use their evil lists, I still manage to beat them due to the thing you dont think I understand... tactics and game basics.

 

And yes, I was using the old Dex not the WD one. Since the WD version came out, I lost all interest. They are still decent, but nothing really makes them exciting. My main problem is... I want new models for SoB. And that wont happen unless they get a new dex.

 

Anyhow, I for one will not take DA as a push over opponent. Maybe because I will play them myself in a near future (ravenwing due to theme and models).

[number6]

One element of the psifleman that hasn't been mentioned yet: SUPER AEGIS. That additional -4 to enemy psyker LD when targeting nearby units has been a lifesaver a few times. My last game against Eldar (w/Eldrad, of course) could've just ravaged me with Mind War and Doom. But ... dinna work out so well thanks to the pair of dreads I had "shielding" my infantry.

 

There is no way anybody can look at 135 pts for a psifleman and think, "That's a poor choice." :lol: The game is a shooting game. Twin-linking makes the shots reliable, and even suitable for shooting at flyers, which is otherwise a weakness for pure GK army lists.

 

This is not to take away from the dreadknight, either. Also an excellent unit to have on hand.

 

Take both, if you can. I really don't think the discussion vis-a-vis dreads and dreadknights results in an either/or decision.

 

If you can't, take the one(s) that you can afford to bring, and that synergize properly with your army list and overall strategy with that list.

[Vash]

One element of the psifleman that hasn't been mentioned yet: SUPER AEGIS. That additional -4 to enemy psyker LD when targeting nearby units has been a lifesaver a few times. My last game against Eldar (w/Eldrad, of course) could've just ravaged me with Mind War and Doom. But ... dinna work out so well thanks to the pair of dreads I had "shielding" my infantry.

There is no way anybody can look at 135 pts for a psifleman and think, "That's a poor choice." The game is a shooting game. Twin-linking makes the shots reliable, and even suitable for shooting at flyers, which is otherwise a weakness for pure GK army lists.

This is not to take away from the dreadknight, either. Also an excellent unit to have on hand.

Take both, if you can. I really don't think the discussion vis-a-vis dreads and dreadknights results in an either/or decision.

If you can't, take the one(s) that you can afford to bring, and that synergize properly with your army list and overall strategy with that list.

And I think what your saying here is totally true (the synergy aspect).

My armies generally dont work to well with Psifel dreads. And I have a feeling many others where I play either have the same issue as me or another reason, more likely, is that they dont trust vehicles anymore.

I have been playing around with the idea with Aegis defence as you say. But so far, I havent really needed it. Which is a shame. I really want to try it out.

When I use dreads (in various form, psifel dread, basic dreads etc), I usually field atleast 2. Problem have been vs psyker armies, is that they tend to target the dreads even more when they see them.

It all comes down to that my play style isnt really based around dreads I guess :(

So maybe, just maybe, I should give the dreads another go. Problem is, I dont know what I can/want to let go of :)

[number6]

So maybe, just maybe, I should give the dreads another go. Problem is, I dont know what I can/want to let go of

This is a good problem to have. :lol:

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well I am not going into debating anymore. We dont share, and never will, the same optinion. Which is good. But what really bothers me, is neither of us really understands the other party. I would acctually prefer to meet eye to eye and discuss things like this. And preferably play a game or two

Funnily enough I used to live in Finland a while ago. Been to Sweden once on holiday too. Alas, I'm in Oz, so the intertubes will have to suffice.

You are thinking atm I dont understand the game basics... which insults me acctually. Of course I understand that scoring units is number one in the game these days. And trust me... I have tried every single unit in the GK dex more than three times and not looking down on them at all (yes I have tried Crowe, and I am one of those who doesnt think he blows when used right).

Concerning the amount of games I have played... I do have enough imo (in my prime 10+ games a week, now days 1-3 a week. Family comes first these days), to have my own opinion about the psifel dread and how it works with my play style and many others (mainly where I play though).

I didn't say that, I said you have a misconception about the game (ie what matters). You have a concern that you'll lose the PsyDread before it is useful. My point was, everything but Troops is expendable. So I am sorry if I caused offence, I'm not saying you are a bad player or that you lack basic understanding of the game. Just that you are focusing in on the wrong issue. It's not that PsyDreads are especially fragile, its that you need to be less worried about losing them.

And trust me again... players here dont favour the Psifel dreads as much as they did before in 5th edition. And my impresion is that neither does the B&C community. But for you and for many others the Psifel dreads are still a deadly force to be reconned with. It all comes down on how you utilize him (and of course what your opponent brings and handles him (this is where I think we have our biggest difference... Where I play, once anyone sees a psifel dread, it is dead dead dead in turn 1 or 2. Again it is all situational. It could survive a whole game etc etc, but in general they dont live long, and seldom get a chance to do much intended damage.)).

I have a friend who acctually use them. But he never really wins... not because of the psifel dreads though. They acctually do pretty well. But due to his love for certain units or models. He fields what he likes for the day.

What is your local meta anyway? I'm genuinely curious, because aside from railgun spam there isn't a whole lot that will kill a PsyDread that fast. Are you getting alpha striked by meltas? Krak/las spam?

Concerning the SoB, I should have added that it was my friends (friendly games was to vague) who didnt want me to play SoB. The gaming community I play in is over 50 players. They cant bann me or anyone for that matter to play what they want. And they are usually more evil than me when making army lists.

But even so, even if they use their evil lists, I still manage to beat them due to the thing you dont think I understand... tactics and game basics

Again, I didn't mean to give that impression. I think it still is a bit of a cop out for your friends to complain about Sisters and peer pressure you into not playing them.

And yes, I was using the old Dex not the WD one. Since the WD version came out, I lost all interest. They are still decent, but nothing really makes them exciting. My main problem is... I want new models for SoB. And that wont happen unless they get a new dex.

It's not just that. They're genuinely less powerful as an army too. Sisters used to actually place a lot (not win tourneys, but they were around). WD dex killed that off.

I wouldn't hold your breath, mainline factions like Eldar and Orks are still languishing with essentially 4th edition codices. I'm still waiting for Tau to be good again...I like my Knights, but I want my other army to be usable again.

One element of the psifleman that hasn't been mentioned yet: SUPER AEGIS. That additional -4 to enemy psyker LD when targeting nearby units has been a lifesaver a few times. My last game against Eldar (w/Eldrad, of course) could've just ravaged me with Mind War and Doom. But ... dinna work out so well thanks to the pair of dreads I had "shielding" my infantry.

It is cornercase, but yeah I know what you mean. Even in one of my recent games, regular Aegis stopped an enemy Librarian getting spells on me (that psychic screech thing from Telepathy got targeted at my Termies, but failed). -1 is pretty handy, -4 is hilarious. Problem is though, most of the powerful spells in 40k are buffs/auras that don't trigger 'Deny the Witch'. Which is good for us too in a way (with Divination and of course our codex powers being 90% buffs), but yeah...I miss psychic hoods being relevant.

[Vash]

well, that might be true actually. I am focusing on the fact that I wont get to use my psifel dread before it gets to do some good. With GK, I usually tend to lean over to that every unit should do its part, or die trying. My bad experience with Psifel dread has led to that I dont like them in general as they often die first. This due to bad knowledge too from my opponent. They think the psifel dreads are something to deal with first at all times (which could be used to my advantage of course). 

But with the setup I have now, in some games certain units will perform better, and less so in others. All in all, the overall performance have been over their costing price. The sad part has been, that the psifel dread have been at 50% effectiveness for me looking at it over all the games I have included them. But I will say, if my opponents could look passed the psifel dreads reputation... maybe it will do some good. Because.., as I said, my other units have been walking free from enemy fire, thus leading to a win. 

 

Well local meta game here. Well varies a lot really. But there are a lot of lascannons, from Imperial forces and chaos. Meltaguns are not as common as it once was (5th ed), but they are still in great numbers. 

Auto cannons, from other dreads ;) , and various units is really common too. CSM non the less. And CSM with auto cannons are pretty dirty cheap... :/

 

Concerning the SoB. Well I had been winning and winning over and over again. Never losing the local tournaments (20 player tournies), and only losing 1 out of 20 games (I only played 3 local tournaments, then I starting hosting them instead).

It actually got boring to play them. The tip over came when I actually bought 3 exorcists (3 for 1 since I helped out in the local game store with inventory day). 

Even if I fielded 3 of them, I only used two at the time... since once the first two had fired, there was nothing left for the third one to fire at. 

I think in my last game I wiped my opponent in turn 3 (or 4) only losing 3 battle sisters. 

This is against one of my friends who is really well read on tactics and know how to build good army lists. Though, he was using the old CSM dex. 

 

Come to think of it... I think it was mostly the status my army had from its former games. As soon as they saw me picking up my SoB army, they would be demoralised. 

 

In big tournaments, 100 players, I think I made it to top 10 most of the times, and top 5 a couple of times with SoB (this was without the exorcists). I did beat some of the winners in friendly games in between tournament games (night time when we were suppose to sleep). 

 

 

Anyhow. I'll be looking into building up a DA force now, and ask some GK players to put me to the test. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

I'm genuinely curious, because aside from railgun spam there isn't a whole lot that will kill a PsyDread that fast.

 

There wasn't in 5th.

 

Sadly, in 6th, they die very easily to massed Plasma.  anything form 3 PG Henchment units to the more 'elite' squads that can get 4+ of them.

 

Rapid Fire range, double tap, S7 versus AV12, three glances and *poof*.

 

Krak grenades are just as bad, and let's not mention Haywaire/Voltic Staves.

 

Dreads need to be bumped to AV13 really.  At least 'venerable' ones should be.  At AV12 (and not being a flyer) they are just too fragile now.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

well, that might be true actually. I am focusing on the fact that I wont get to use my psifel dread before it gets to do some good. With GK, I usually tend to lean over to that every unit should do its part, or die trying. My bad experience with Psifel dread has led to that I dont like them in general as they often die first. This due to bad knowledge too from my opponent. They think the psifel dreads are something to deal with first at all times (which could be used to my advantage of course).

But with the setup I have now, in some games certain units will perform better, and less so in others. All in all, the overall performance have been over their costing price. The sad part has been, that the psifel dread have been at 50% effectiveness for me looking at it over all the games I have included them. But I will say, if my opponents could look passed the psifel dreads reputation... maybe it will do some good. Because.., as I said, my other units have been walking free from enemy fire, thus leading to a win.

I wouldn't be that pessimistic, but yeah, they will take more than one shot to kill usually. So at worst, they're a good fire magnet.

Well local meta game here. Well varies a lot really. But there are a lot of lascannons, from Imperial forces and chaos. Meltaguns are not as common as it once was (5th ed), but they are still in great numbers.

Auto cannons, from other dreads , and various units is really common too. CSM non the less. And CSM with auto cannons are pretty dirty cheap... :/

Yeah, lascannon spam is annoying. I haven't fought the new Havok build yet, but I know my local Chaos Marine player will be loading up on the quad autocannon soon (his heavy bolters failed hard in our last match). I can see why you lose the PsyDread early.

Anyhow. I'll be looking into building up a DA force now, and ask some GK players to put me to the test.

Try out Deathwing and Ravenwing. I personally think they are the two that give us the most problems. Deepstriking TDA squads with plasma cannons are brutal, as are Black Knights, and Strikes don't like being in combat with T5 Hit and Run.

Sadly, in 6th, they die very easily to massed Plasma. anything form 3 PG Henchment units to the more 'elite' squads that can get 4+ of them.

I haven't had that experience. You outrange those units by a massive margin, so unless they Outflank or Deepstrike into you, they shouldn't be getting past the rest of your gunline. Also, if they are wasting plasma on my Dread (instead of my expensive infantry), I'm pretty happy.

Krak grenades are just as bad, and let's not mention Haywaire/Voltic Staves.

Yeah, I've been ninja'd by melta Vets (they missed with the guns, but in melee they snagged me with a meltabomb), Swooping Hawks and Wyches before. Still haven't seen a voltaic stave in my local Necron players, although they might at some point. Still, that's melee, so it isn't exactly a common occurence.

Dreads need to be bumped to AV13 really. At least 'venerable' ones should be. At AV12 (and not being a flyer) they are just too fragile now.

I can see the argument for it. Venerables ones should be, and Venerables shouldn't be the absurd price they are (WS5/BS5 isn't that amazing on a 2A model). I reckon if Dreads got a price downgrade, they should keep AV12.

[Gentlemanloser]

I thought to myself once "Heh, he's deployed his 5 PG Chosen Squad badly, I'll tie them up with a Dread".

 

Didn't win Seize, even with Coteaz.  The Chosen Rapid Fired into my Dread, and easily got 3 Glances. :/

 

In another game, a 10 man Tac Squad charged one of my Dreads, and Kraked it to death. :/  It only managed to kill a couple.

[Vash]

So my question is now. Is the Psifel dread a good choice vs Dark Angels?

With their amount of plasma? I mean, Ravenwing force. They will have Black Knights. Fast buggers with TL plasma. Now I dont think they will target the Dread it self, but they could. 

Bikers with multi melta that out flanks or use their scout move to come closer. 

Typhoons, yes typhoon... weak but cheap and mobile, have a decent chance to pop the dread too. 

 

My main concern is the attack bike for 55 pts with either outflank or scout move. As GK players we dont have much vehicles as an option for the Attack bike to prioritise. There could be a LRC... but then that one would be the obvious target. 

[number6]

I fail to understand how plasma spam spells the end of utility for psiflemen dreads. The same unit that "spells doom" for the dread will just as easily kill a dreadknight. Wounds on 3s with a 5+ save, against 4 wounds ... vs "wounds" (glances) on 5s against 3 "wounds" (hull points). Just not that big a difference.

 

Not that big a difference against lascannons either. At distance, your dread should be getting a 5+ cover save, same as your dreadknight gets a 5+ invul save. Wounds the dread on 3s, wounds the dreadknight on 2s.

 

Truly, not that big a difference. The units are not truly comparable; their benefits vis-a-vis survivability and offense are situational and your perception of how "good" the units are says more about your personal biases than about anything inherently "true" you might think you're saying about them.

 

I repeat: choosing one or the other is not an either/or decision. You have only 3 heavy slots, so you should choose among them based on your army list and tactics. They are otherwise not competing against each othe in any way. If they were in different force org slots, this discussion wouldn't even be happening.

[Gentlemanloser]

Indeed.  It takes on average nearly an identicle amount of Plasma hits to kill each.

 

But.  The NDK is faster.  And doesn't die to Kraks in CC anywhere near as easily.

[number6]

The ndk is faster only if you buy a teleporter. And then it costs as much as two dreads! At which point you simply must abandon any pretense of claiming the ndk is superior based on economics. ;)

 

I repeat: neither unit can be compared apples to apples. Give it up already. ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

I was never trying to compare the two. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I thought to myself once "Heh, he's deployed his 5 PG Chosen Squad badly, I'll tie them up with a Dread".

Didn't win Seize, even with Coteaz. The Chosen Rapid Fired into my Dread, and easily got 3 Glances. :/

In another game, a 10 man Tac Squad charged one of my Dreads, and Kraked it to death. :/ It only managed to kill a couple.

Yeah, stay the hell away from Chosen. Dreads were already awful in melee in 5th, now with HP and grenades being on WS, they're absolutely atrocious. Unless you are up against true chaff (no nades, no way to get S6 attacks), they're just bleh. So, to be fair, that was a tactical error on your part, not the Dread being weak ;) . Same for Tacs, although them krak nading you to death must have needed good rolls (6's to glance).

I haven't run melee Dreads since 4th. Never regretted that decision either. 2A is just balls, even with the claw.

So my question is now. Is the Psifel dread a good choice vs Dark Angels?

With their amount of plasma? I mean, Ravenwing force. They will have Black Knights. Fast buggers with TL plasma. Now I dont think they will target the Dread it self, but they could.

Bikers with multi melta that out flanks or use their scout move to come closer.

Typhoons, yes typhoon... weak but cheap and mobile, have a decent chance to pop the dread too.

My main concern is the attack bike for 55 pts with either outflank or scout move. As GK players we dont have much vehicles as an option for the Attack bike to prioritise. There could be a LRC... but then that one would be the obvious target.

Name another model in our army that generates S8+ shooting that is twin-linked and in that quantity....yeah no, you can't. Not for that price, or army slot. Vendettas are just about the only thing that outshoots our PsyDread, and its an OP Allied unit.

Typhoons are terrible, you won't kill a PsyDread with one normally, and if you are bringing multiples thats more AP3 my Terminators could care less about.

Attack Bikes have always been good for precisely this problem (backfield shooty wrecking your face), but again, good screening will prevent them doing anything. If they try and Outflank onto your refused flank, Coteaz will wreck them with his free shooting from 'IBEY'.

Moreover, both these units exist and are competitive for regular Marines. So no, neither are unique to DA.

The fast plasma stuff is more concerning for our infantry. Terminators hate plasma, Purifiers and Strikes don't like it either. Aside from 'Shrouding' and the Aegis line, we can't do much about it, and he'll bring enough to break cover saves handily. The answer is either A: wreck them in melee with a fast hard-counter (DK and Interceptors can both do this) or B: ignore their cover with 'Perfect Timing' and dump plasma cannon back into them, or C: break their cover saves and T5 with massed psycannon+psybolt storm bolter. It's tough, but we outgun and outmelee them. They basically have to trade with us, which isn't bad though (Black Knights aren't scoring, so them dying to take out your scoring Terminators is a good trade, even taking down Purifiers is a good trade).

The ndk is faster because you always buy a teleporter. It costs as much as two dreads! At which point you simply must abandon any pretense of claiming the ndk is superior based on economics.

Fixed. Yeah, I agree completely. You are essentially giving up two Dreads (sword+teleporter+heavy incinerator = 2 x PsyDread), but against some matchups, having a MC with a template weapon murdering the backfield is handier than moar anti-vehicle. As you mentioned earlier, it really depends on your list. I still think one PsyDread should be in Heavy, but you can get by with fast melta/Vindicare in a pinch.

Anyway, lets get back on topic (we're heading that way I think).

Deathwing lists. Oh boy. Twin-linked plasma cannon and storm bolters on the drop is a pain, and they're especially annoying to remove if he swaps the bolter fire for storm shields. Belial makes the list brutal, he lands with no scatter+Command squad, then everyone else drops in formation due to his homer.

This presents a real problem. We can take it as read he lands outside Coteaz 'IBEY' range, so you're still getting charged on his next turn (12" isn't enough of a buffer). That much AP2 blast alone will wreck our infantry, even with good cover saves. The followup charge on the next DA turn will end most of our squads handily, not to mentioned PsyDreads. We really need to leverage our Ally options and get some chaff to take the charge. Orks and IG are the go to guys I think, although IG have Orders and special/heavy weapons to contribute (Orks have Lootaz which are largely meh against 2+ plate).

What do you guys reckon? Not bother with our infantry at all and go full Henchmen+IG/Orks? Or make an infantry buffer with IG/Orks and just GtG on the turn he drops?