Inner Circle progression

[Valkyrion]

I don't get it.

 

You have your basic marine who has been a Scout, Devastator, Assault and Tactical marine. He may have been a sergeant. There is a reasonable chance he also has experience of riding a bike or speeder.

In normal chapters that would then result in possible promotion to the Veteran company, where he can still be an expert in his particular field (i.e, he can have a heavy weapon, be a tactical or assault equivalent) before wearing terminator armour if necessary.

 

In the Dark Angels though, he goes from being a crack shot with a lascannon, or chewing people up with a chainsword to riding a bike really well. Then from riding a bike really well they put him in the slowest, heaviest armour they can find and drop him from a ship.

 

The difference in fighting styles without first earning any experience in that field seems to extreme for me, even with genetically enhanced supermen.

[Brother Landrain]

not quite the way it works....

 

dont have time to elaborate, but i an sure there are many who will, before you end up in Room 42...

[Louis]

I have always seen the progression from Scout to Tactical marine as part of the initial training of a marine, and once this is complete he then goes onto the roll that he is best suited to / the Chapter needs filled. From a Scout he is promoted to a Battle Brother and assigned as a bolter armed marine in a Devastator squad, here he gets to see the main battlefield and learn the duties of a Battle Brother from the relative safety of a long ranged unit (Devs shouldn't be involved in short range fire fights!). Once he has completed his time with the Devs he is moved to an Assault unit where he learns about mobility and close range combat, young and hot headed and maybe even a little bored of his time with the Devastators it allows him to burn off some of the energy of youth and improve his melee skills. From there he is moved to a Tactical squad where he learns the all-round skills any marine needs, sometimes used in assault or short ranged fire fights and sometimes as a long range fire base. Once completed his own preferences and the needs of the Chapter are assessed and he is moved to the squad that most suits his abilities.

For most marines they may then be rotated around to keep all their skills up, or they may be honoured with acting as a combat squad leader (a corporal really) or a specialist weapon operator, Rhino driver etc... For most marines that is it, they may be promoted within their battle company or transferred to spend time with the Reserve companies but the Deathwing and Ravenwing are not open to them.

For those few with the absolute dedication to their Chapter, and with a skill set far above the normal marine transfer to the Deathwing or Ravenwing might be considered. If they can pass the next level of tests and initiations they are inducted into whichever of the companies most suit their nature. If it is the Ravenwing they spend time as a pilot, as a biker, as a gunner on a speeder.... Again for most the path will stop here, they may be promoted to a sergeant, or end up as a fighter ace but they will spend their remaining time as a member of the Ravenwing. For some who are truly exceptional they may be inducted into the Knights, more tests of loyalty to pass, and the opportunity to progress as far as Master of the Ravenwing for someone of truly amazing ability.

Within the Deathwing I think things are a bit more interesting. After completing time as Terminator and if they continue to prove their loyalty then there is not only promotion within the 1st Company to consider, but a transfer back to a Battle Company as a veteran sgt maybe. Only those who become Deathwing Knights can be promoted to Company Master, so there maybe another cycle where a veteran sgt is transferred back to the Deathwing for a tour as a Knight before transferring back out as a Company Master.

 

Just my thoughts anyway.

[Piousservant]

 

I think Louis has put it pretty well. Think of the Deathwing and the Ravenwing as the two "Tier 1" Companies of the Dark Angels - the progression isn't through them both (except with the very best) but usually one or the other - depending on the skills and attributes of the marine in question.

 

I'd just add that I think the DA process for moving up into the "elite" is much slower than in other Chapters. Being chosen for the Deathwing (and even the Ravenwing) isn't solely on battlefield prowess - this isn't the space pups Wolf Guard - but also on the temperament of the marine, their dedication, their trustworthiness, etc.

 

 

[cypher 89]

just a thought on your post louis about ravenwing, im not sure if u read the ravenwing book but the chaplin in it talks about the black knights hunt masters next progression is into the deathwing so there progression will continue still and they wont just stay in the ravenwing

[Balthamal]

If we believe some of the bits and pieces included in Ravenwing then it varies in the case of each battle brother. Some may complete their rotations within the codex squads and may rise to the company veterans. For the Ravenwing it is most likely a case of aptitude to the style of warfare, mental fortitude and a long list of battle honours. With the Deathwing however, things get.....complex.

 

It's been noted in several bits of fluff over the years that resolve, dedication to the chapter and a willingness to bring retribution to traitors are all qualities which attract the notice of the company chaplains for possible promotion. It goes without saying that they have to be peerless in battle before the knock on the cell door comes but this "base" level of accomplishment is only sufficient to permit the testing. If the testing is passed that's when advancement begins properly. For example if a particular brother shows the leadership and the ability to balance the duties of the Deathwing with those of a battle company it's likely he will be assigned as a veteran sergeant.

 

It's hinted at in Ravenwing that the longer a brother serves, the more rites he undergoes and the greater amount of truth revealed with the inner circle and the Deathwing Knights at the pinnacle, although it's safe to say the majority do not reach such heights.

 

The other thing that needs to be considered with the Deathwing is their ruthlessness. Again referencing Ravenwing, it's implied that brothers who become aware of the Fallen and the Great Hunt are given to the Deathwing to be dealt with. The result being either promotion into the 1st company or a mind wipe. it strikes me that if they found an individual brother to be compromised they wouldn't hesitate to kill them.

 

As a saying goes, "up on high all paths are paved in daggers". Seems rather appropriate to the Deathwing

[Phoebus]

In the Dark Angels though, he goes from being a crack shot with a lascannon, or chewing people up with a chainsword to riding a bike really well. Then from riding a bike really well they put him in the slowest, heaviest armour they can find and drop him from a ship. The difference in fighting styles without first earning any experience in that field seems to extreme for me, even with genetically enhanced supermen.

It might help to remember that Space Marines don't learn or train like normal human beings.

 

From the fluff side of the game - such as novels - and from the old Index Astartes articles we know that a Chapter uses hypnotic, chemical, and even computer-based methods to impart knowledge/information to its newcomers. We also know that they have enhanced minds - with some even developing photographic memories. Think about how a normal human being has to contend with stress or even fear in learning certain skill sets (for instance, a person in the military learning how to rappel inverted, or attending parachutist training). Now imagine you were enhanced enough to not only not be stressed or afraid in such situations, but to also be able to instantly recall how to do something right the first time. As the "Rites of Creation" article says, "these mental powers are, if anything more extraordinary than even the physical powers ..." (emphasis mine)

 

In closing, If you're worried about how a Space Marine will adjust from being an Assault Marine to being a bike rider to being a Terminator... do remember that a simple Aspirant can become a full battle-brother in as few as four to six years! As such, adjusting to a different set of equipment is a comparative cake walk.

[Louis]

I have to find the time to read Ravenwing, it sounds like Gav has really nailed the progression through the Dark Angel ranks. Regarding the Ravenwing Knights moving across to Deathwing at some point, these really are the elite of the elite, Bike or Terminator they are going to be lethal in any form!

 

As a saying goes, "up on high all paths are paved in daggers". Seems rather appropriate to the Deathwing

 

Couldn't agree more! In the new Dex there are even mentions that on occasion a candidate for the Supreme Grand Master doesn't return from his "assesment" by the Watchers.... The DA are a very ruthless chapter, but then at the same time they are still heroes of the Imperium to the masses. Just more of our wonderful background in action :)

[Brother Immolator]

It would only make sense that some brothers are outright...lost along the way. Not all would possess the mental fortitude required to deal with the fall or be tight lipped enough to hold secrets. Been a crack shot with a gun, an ace pilot or CC monster (to my mind at least) is only the ticket to be considered for further advancement. If the cell knock comes, who knows what are they facing? For a space marine its not easy to accept a stain in his honour, especially one that by all accounts it cannot be washed away. And how a battle brother would react if he awoke in his cell and saw hooded midgets above his face?

[Ronin_eX]

In most chapters Veterancy is determined by experience and length of service (more the former than the latter; and in the case of the Space Wolves almost entirely the former). Dark Angels take a different path.

 

You progress through the normal squads from your first days as a Neophyte, to your inception as a proper Scout and in to a full battle brother. You continue your career and along the way they may see the signs in you that make you a natural driver or pilot. But that is not enough of course, you may yet be passed over because you lack the necesary loyalty and conviction. But those who are loyal enough and skilled enough pass in to the 2nd Company. From there they will be closely monitored and brought up through the ranks. Someone deemed worthy of the 2nd may never be part of a Black Knight squad, just as not every Black Knight may progress on to the Deathwing.

 

For those not incepted in to the Ravenwing, each company still has a pool of Company Veterans that may yet prove themselves worthy of seconding to the Deathwing if they show the proper amounts of loyalty and devotion to the Chapter.

 

What the Dark Angels have are several queues for their Veteran population to wait in while the Chaplains decide where they would best be served. Those that may possess the right stuff are tested further, and if they pass then they begin their journey in the Inner Circle. So while it may be true that the Black Knights are closer to the Inner Circle than Company Veterans, neither of them are guaranteed a spot in the Deathwing if they are found lacking the precise requirements for promotion.

 

In most Chapters, if you survive long enough then you are a shoe-in for the 1st Company. In the Dark Angels you may not move from your original starting company for nearly half a century simply because you are not ready for the next revelation. But either way, by the time a marine makes it to something like the Black Knights he has earned several lifetimes of specialty in other forms of combat. In a century or so more he will be a master in any field, and if he has strength of mind, he will make a fine member of the Deathwing. But it is important to remember that a marine may be several centuries old before ever being considered for a baseline part of the Ravenwing. Before that he may be plucked from a tactical squad or even a devastator squad where he performed well. The path to getting to any position in the Dark Angels is a long and winding one.

 

Where most Chapters have a straight line progression, Dark Angels need a big-arse flow-chart with many loops and branching paths.

[Cactus]

Well said Ronin_eX.