Louis Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 The Standard of Devastation looks to be a game changer for our tactical marines giving all units in range Salvo 2/4 for their boltguns, potentially quadrupling a bolter armed marines firepower at 13-24” range. Of course the standard bearer is going to be a priority target for any enemy, and the range of the banner means we need to cluster tactical squads in order to take advantage of the Salvo ability. So how best to use the banner and how best to create a firebase? My initial thoughts are that 2 stripped down tactical squads should be easy to get in range of the banner, as only a single squad member needs to be range for the unit to gain the bonus (although I’d recommend a few more in range to stop your opponent sniping out the odd tactical marine). Adding a third squad is tempting but will create issues with overlapping the squads and creating a very dense cluster of marines. Secondly the Aegis Defence Line is a must as the tactical squads need to be deployed fairly close to each other and so it will not be possible to take advantage of the terrain already on the board. The big question though is where to put the Command Squad? I’m not sure if the banner will be effective when deployed in a vehicle, I hope so and will look at other abilities to see where/if a precedence has been set to suggest the banner will work. If it can deploy in a vehicle I am think a Land Raider Crusader would provide an ideal “bunker” for the command squad. It’s Hurricane Bolters should work with the banner (the codex defines them as 3 twin linked bolters that fire as a single weapon) giving a further 24 twin-linked bolter shots at 24” range and adds the power of an Assault Cannon to the anti-infantry hail of fire. AV14 all around, 4HP and possibly the Deathwing Vehicle upgrade should provide a very robust defence for the command squad, and prevents the enemy from sniping out the banner bearer. In addition when effects do work from vehicles the range is measured from the hull, and Crusader helps spread the Salve bubble that little bit further For the command squad itself I think the Apothecary and a couple of Storm Shields would be a good investment. These are primarily here to keep the banner bearer alive, so I am tempted to skip any of the usual melee or ranged weapon upgrades. In an ideal world the squad never leaves the Crusader, and if it does it is only hide in the wreck. Adding a small devastator squad or tactical squad with a Flakk missile launcher provides some AA firepower as well as giving a unit to man the Quad Gun on the Aegis. A 6 man Dev squad with 3 missiles is throwing out 7 Skyfire shots a round and has some bodies to take the return firepower. The Librarian with Prescience screams out as the obvious HQ choice, giving re-rolls to hit to one of the tactical squads and bringing the ability to take special issue wargear if you want to look at further bolstering the defence of the command squad (Power Field maybe). Depending on load out the fire base is around 1100 points and provides around a hundred bolter shots per round (depending on whether you take a heavy weapon in the tactical squads or not), the majority of which can be twin linked, and 7 AA shots a round. All behind an Aegis and with the command squad protected in an AV14 LRC "Bunker". There is a shortage of Anti-Tank and counter assault units, and with potentially just 400 points left there are some hard choices to make, but a unit of Knights and possibly a second Dev squad loaded for AT might provide a nice rounding out of the force. So what are your thoughts, is the firebase a good idea, too expensive, too vulnerable to losing the banner bearer, too defensive? Will the Banner work from within the Crusader? (I posted in the main DA forum rather than army lists as I hope this can be a tactics discussion rather than a points based discussion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypher 89 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 im currently building a battle company all in drop pod for my apoc army and gonna work out a nice way to bring them down close together to maximise the effect on the arrival turn, i also play alot of horde armys in apoc so may consider deploying a battle company sometimes on the ground to set a really nice fire base up to counter any hordes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Turnbull Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Overlapping fire is only a concern against armies with 5+ or worse armour. Against Necrons, other Marines etc, you should just go crazy! 4 Tactical squads for 560 points with up to 160 shots a turn? Heck, I don't care if I give them a cover save anymore. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Keep in mind it's friendly DA units within 6" of the Standard, not models within 6". So if you line it up right you, can have a lot of units getting the salvo..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher 102 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Yes the standards will measure their range from the hull of the crusader. Check out the main rulebook's FAQ for your confirmation. The battleline does sound good and I will give it a try but also consider putting the banner in your crusader flanking with some Ravenwing squads and taking this show on the road! If you don't manage to just table your opponent then you've still got to be able to take objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 Yes the standards will measure their range from the hull of the crusader. Check out the main rulebook's FAQ for your confirmation. The battleline does sound good and I will give it a try but also consider putting the banner in your crusader flanking with some Ravenwing squads and taking this show on the road! If you don't manage to just table your opponent then you've still got to be able to take objectives. Hi Cypher, yeah I was looking at your tactic for doing this, and that is some insane mobile firepower! Keep in mind it's friendly DA units within 6" of the Standard, not models within 6". So if you line it up right you, can have a lot of units getting the salvo..... Good point, a lot better than models within 6" :) My concern was that if there are 2 squads you can stretch them out across the Aegis and get a few models from each squad within range of the banner. But add in a third squad "on-line" (ie a single line of 3 tactical squads) and the middle squad is going to have to overlap with the the two edge squads. If you aren't hding behind an Aegis then I agree you can get a lot of models in and avoid clustering, certainly something like the drop list Cypher suggested wouldn't care about trying to maintain seperation as it can spread out in a square rather than a line. So really it's the decision to hide behind the Aegis that limits this to 2 squads (I think) rather than the banner's range - or in other words you are correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 im currently building a battle company all in drop pod for my apoc army and gonna work out a nice way to bring them down close together to maximise the effect on the arrival turn, i also play alot of horde armys in apoc so may consider deploying a battle company sometimes on the ground to set a really nice fire base up to counter any hordes I'm not sure the drop pod idea is going to work out. The problem is that units out of the drop pod count as moving, and when moving with salvo weapons, you get 2 shots at 12", which just happens to be the same profile as a standard boltgun. I might be understanding the rules wrong however, since salvo weapons are new and I haven't had much experience with them. Personally, I think 2 combat squads and a command squad are going to put out more than enough firepower, and 15 models behind the ADL is easy without having to clump up. I've also considered using a libby as my hq and giving him a power field generator. Another idea I've been playing with, is giving the standard to a DW command squad. The RW are already going to be within 6" because of the teleport homers anyways. Their weapons are also twin-linked already, so no need for a libby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmattlythgoe Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe when a salvo weapon moves it can only fire at half range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 bah, I meant to write 12". I've edited my post to reflect this. Thanks for pointing it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamthulhu Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 You could always march them up field a turn in a formation like a 5 on a 6 sided die. Site keeps stripping my spacing :( Just line them up with a small gap between the front two squads. Put the command behind them and then line up the two other squads behind them. You can always make the squad with the banner a DW command squad to keep them alive longer. Salvo weapons work like rapid fire weapons of old. Move half distance fire at a lower rate. Sit still and lay waste. If you bring 4 squads of tac marines and a command squad with the banner you can put out a lot of fire. 180 bolter shots a turn for under 1k. Just have to put them in an old fashioned firing line and look like you are fighting in the 1700's In the end the 24 inch range of bolters will limit them to a round or two of getting into position. If the banner works with storm bolters the shooty Deathwing squad with two cyclones will be brutal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost_angel Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Banner doesn't work with Storm Bolters - only bog standard bolters sadly. Assuming that the banner is in effect while inside a vehicle (I think it is) then a rhino or razorback would be a better bet simply because it's hard to justify the points for an LR when the occupants won't be getting into combat. Even a techmarine with power-field works out cheaper although I can still think of other things to spend the points on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Why walk? Put the command squad and tacticals in/on a Fortress of Redemption. The Ravenwing and Deathwing can do the 'glory hunting' of taking far objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamthulhu Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Banner doesn't work with Storm Bolters - only bog standard bolters sadly. Assuming that the banner is in effect while inside a vehicle (I think it is) then a rhino or razorback would be a better bet simply because it's hard to justify the points for an LR when the occupants won't be getting into combat. Even a techmarine with power-field works out cheaper although I can still think of other things to spend the points on. Actually from a pure wording stand point they work with boltguns. It doesn't say bolters. Boltguns in the main rule book consists of bolters, storm bolters, and heavy bolters. This is likely a FAQ type issue but it doesn't say bolters. By rules it would work with all 3. People so far are just assuming they only meant the regular bolter not "boltguns" that it says. I guess that is a read it as it is written approach I just don't see why it would matter that much if it affected storm bolters. Its not like its giving the bolters ignore cover or ap3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamthulhu Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Either way the rule goes the most effective application of that banner would be with regular marines. 3-4 bare bones tac squads in formation with a command squad and a cheap libby. 140 points a squad x4 65 points libby 180 points for the command squad with the standard. 805 points for a formation when still can pump out 180 shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 You might as well as grab a techmarine with a power field generator for the 80 pts he could bolster the ADL which brings it to a 3+ cover save, fix the raider anything he is next to gets a 4++ invun, maybe put him in the raider but dont dis-embark him on assault. Just make sure to keep him away when combat starts as the 4++ is generated for any model near him. An ADL giving 3+ cover and a land raider with a 4++ invun ? thats hilarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Keyaetus Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Just a quick question, can Dark Angels take autocannons on their devastators or is that still a chaos only thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Just a quick question, can Dark Angels take autocannons on their devastators or is that still a chaos only thing? No they can not. So it is still a Chaos/IG thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher 102 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Techmarines can't bolster terrain that you purchased as part of your army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
From Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I would like to point this out as it is being discuss in other forums at the moment. A twink-linked Bolter still counts as a Bolter. The profile of your bikes Boltguns becomes (salvo 2/4, Twink-Linked) and bikes have relentless. So.. move 12" shoot 24" 4 times. Seems good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I would like to point this out as it is being discuss in other forums at the moment. A twink-linked Bolter still counts as a Bolter. The profile of your bikes Boltguns becomes (salvo 2/4, Twink-Linked) and bikes have relentless. So.. move 12" shoot 24" 4 times. Seems good! Wow, is this really a thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlauG Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 My own personal thoughts on the matter lean towards having more than one Land Raider Crusader... Three, if possible, with a screen of multiple Tactical squads lined up in front of them, to benefit from the standard... and maybe a Techmarine wth PF Generator so that all three Raiders get a 4+ invun. At 1500pts, with a naked Librarian as HQ, with two full Tactical Squads for basic Troops, you have 160pts left to spend... CURSE 6-man Ravenwing Attack Squads for being 161! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
From Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I would like to point this out as it is being discuss in other forums at the moment. A twink-linked Bolter still counts as a Bolter. The profile of your bikes Boltguns becomes (salvo 2/4, Twink-Linked) and bikes have relentless. So.. move 12" shoot 24" 4 times. Seems good! Wow, is this really a thing? This is really a thing. A precedent was set by Hellfire rounds, it could only be fired by "boltguns" but it's allowed to be fired out of bikes, combi bolters, etc. As long as the bolter is using the standard bolter profile it's a bolter. IE a stormboler isn't a bolter, but a twink-linked bolter is still a bolter.. Just has twink linked. Yet another argument can be easily made. Just look at codex space marines... Valkuns special rules effecting flamers effect the shots from your comi flamer. While his rule does not list combi-flamer as one of the things it effects, a combi flamer is simply firing a single shot flamer, as it's a flamer it's effected. The more you know. d-(^_~)z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 If you use a standard LR as a bunker, and turn it sideways, the AOE of the Standard sits at around 21" from side to side... if you use a Rhino it becomes only about 19" or so... But then 2 members could fire from the hatch... Sit a Darkshroud next to the Rhino, and put everything behind and aegis... 4 Tacticals + CS + rhino + Standard + Darkshroud...840pts with a Salvo of 170 shots at 24" and everything has a 3+ cover save... pretty good firebase :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I would like to point this out as it is being discuss in other forums at the moment. A twink-linked Bolter still counts as a Bolter. The profile of your bikes Boltguns becomes (salvo 2/4, Twink-Linked) and bikes have relentless. So.. move 12" shoot 24" 4 times. Seems good! Wow, is this really a thing? This is really a thing. A precedent was set by Hellfire rounds, it could only be fired by "boltguns" but it's allowed to be fired out of bikes, combi bolters, etc. As long as the bolter is using the standard bolter profile it's a bolter. IE a stormboler isn't a bolter, but a twink-linked bolter is still a bolter.. Just has twink linked. Yet another argument can be easily made. Just look at codex space marines... Valkuns special rules effecting flamers effect the shots from your comi flamer. While his rule does not list combi-flamer as one of the things it effects, a combi flamer is simply firing a single shot flamer, as it's a flamer it's effected. The more you know. d-(^_~)z Cool, i meant more the combination of relentless and salvo? I thought relentless only allowed a weapon to fire its maximum base stats at max range, which would mean 2 shots at 24 if moving? If im wrong then you just gave me the bestest SM present ever - more bolter shots!!!!! Also, the LR is a good tactic, BA use it all the time for Priests bubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Cool, i meant more the combination of relentless and salvo? I thought relentless only allowed a weapon to fire its maximum base stats at max range, which would mean 2 shots at 24 if moving? If im wrong then you just gave me the bestest SM present ever - more bolter shots!!!!! Also, the LR is a good tactic, BA use it all the time for Priests bubble. Relentless means you can fire a weapon as if you had not moved... ie. TDA and Heavy Weapons... so not moving a Salvo 2/4 fires 4 shots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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