Chaos Power Units

[derpasaurus]

i find 10 marines with 2 plas and a plas pistol on the champ does really well. it's expensive by the time you add the rhino, vets, and any marks, but you've got an 18" skateboard the first turn and on turn 2 you just jump out and rapid fire. anything that survives that, just pistol and then bludgeon to death on 3. by then you should have a nice support system in place, too.

 

i built my night lords to both avoid annoying spam (which i've found is no fun to play with OR against) and have a nice chunk of synergy. still a few units to pick up, namely bikers and cultists, but i'm also actually considering dumping my termies. i was discussing it with my friend the other day, and sure they have a 2+/5++, but for nearly the same amount of points i have spent of them i can get 10 MoS/MoK chosen that will do way more damage. i run huron for infiltrate (also fits the fluff a bit, which is awesome) so i don't lose much of the maneuverability, either. i hate deepstriking because there's no reliable way to do that anymore and my rolls are historically terrible, and terminators are so slow to move without doubling their points again to get a LR... :( but using huron to infiltrate/outflank a unit that can roll 4 plas or whatever, man, that's nice. and there's no combi crap either, i can shoot them every turn.

 

honestly the slot i have the most trouble with is heavy support, we have so many delicious options there. i'm considering running 2 vindicators and a forgefiend (magnetized so i can run either build,) with some las/missile havocs around as another solid option. there's also the trip las pred...

 

overall we have a pretty solid codex. it's correct that we have no instant killer units, (baledrake, maybe, lol) but the way i look at it, it's designed to take advantage of synergy from multiple different units, and you really can have a lot of bodies on the table in the 1500/1750 range with a wide variety of options and weapons.

[Sception]

I don't mind the power level of the book, I just don't like that so many units either seem terrible (thousand sons) or like they're missing elements they need to function (berzerkers), or have special rules that just don't function (warp talons). There's too much that doesn't have any synergy, or just doesn't work at all, or just isn't very interesting and exciting. Like the warpsmith is kind of cool, but it should have all sorts of crazy techy options to customize it with, and it just doesn't.

 

The stuff that works fine, or even ok, I'm mostly alright with. And there's enough that works and that I like that I'm not miserable when I play. There just a lot of unfulfilled potential there is all, and especially compared to other recent codeces (DAngels, Bots, DEldar, Knights, even older stuff like BAngels, Wolves, & Guard) it just feels... unfinished. Like there was a lack of interest and effort on the part of the designers for this project.

 

It's not a matter of power level. Hell, I feel like I can make stronger lists in 6e than my DEldar playing room mate can (at least, without resorting to allies), but I'm still envious of her codex which just feels more... I don't know... complete? Exciting? And they were written by the same guy, who also wrote the Wolves Codex, which I love. It isn't even a 'grass is always greener' situation, because my fantasy army is Vamp Counts, also written by the same guy, and that's probably my favorite faction book to come out of GW since ... ever.

[derpasaurus]

oh no doubt. i was hoping and praying that the warp talons would get some sort of vanguard strike style rule, because as is now they land, maybe scatter and die, maybe land right and blind something, probably get shot up on their turn with no real recourse, and then assault without grenades. lolwut.

 

i think the warpsmith is in the wrong slot, as well. i feel like he and the dark apostle maybe should have been elites or upgrades.

[minionboy]

I don't really rate the Chaos land raider as a functional melee transport, so even without passing on hatred, Khârn needs an escort to combat. Cultists seem like the best choice for that, even if they don't get anything from Kharne other than fearless (unless he's your warlord). Regular CSMs still work, but I'd rather run kharne to get him to combat sooner, while I prefer a nice leisurely stroll for CSMs so they can still fire their bolters & plasma.

 

Berzerkers would be the fluffiest, but they're just 20 point Khornate CSMs who lack bolters and plasma, and that's just unacceptable. Especially when Kharne starts killing his own crew after he gets to combat.

 

I probably wouldn't spring for a Land Raider, as much as I like them, like you said though, a blob of 35 naked cultists would be a pretty ideal retinue for Khârn, and not too pricey. If you're doing a Huron list you'd even get them pretty close at the start of the game.

 

Something you have to watch out for when comparing combat Khorne marines and Berserkers how huge Fearless is, but if you're running them with Khârn or a Lord, it's not so important.

[Sception]

As you say, fearless matters not for units intended to escort characters that are themselves fearless. Even without, I'll take the ability to influence the first few turns of the game, either through speed (bikes) or shooting (marines with plasma) over fearless most days of the week, even if they cost the same points. If the fearless is more expensive, then no, I'm not bothering. The biggest problem with Berzerkers, imo, is that rhinos and (chaos) land raiders make poor transports for melee only units, and 20+ points a guy for T4, 3+ save infantry is just too expensive / too vulnerable / too slow to just hoof it to battle, imo.

 

If they were cheaper (no more expensive than regular MoK CSMs), tougher (FNP could have made sense for berzerkers, I guess), Faster (if they could ride bikes or juggers, take jump packs, or get access to a dedicated assault transport), then I might be more interested in them. But right now, they just don't seem to do anything for me that other units don't seem to do better, or cheaper, or while doing other useful things at the same time for the same points.

[the jeske]

i was discussing it with my friend the other day, and sure they have a 2+/5++, but for nearly the same amount of points i have spent of them i can get 10 MoS/MoK chosen that will do way more damage. i run huron for infiltrate (also fits the fluff a bit, which is awesome) so i don't lose much of the maneuverability, either. i hate deepstriking because there's no reliable way to do that anymore and my rolls are historically terrible, and terminators are so slow to move without doubling their points again to get a LR... but using huron to infiltrate/outflank a unit that can roll 4 plas or whatever, man, that's nice. and there's no combi crap either, i can shoot them every turn.

I am sorry , but how do chosen to more damage then terminators for the same points ? and the part about being able to fire special weapons more then once on chosen made me lol .

[spafe]

Jeske, is it possible jsut for arguments sake, that someone may be able to, Oh I dont know, using say infiltrate or outflank, pick a area with limited los and/or cover where they can, just theoritcally place, say a unit of marines where they can shoot an intended victim, have enough power to neutralise it, and then be safe from incoming fire next turn? just asking. (sorry if it comes across rude, but seriously, dismissing them outright when if they can do this, then re-use their weps next turn sounds very plausible).

 

I am considering this in my army, as I also have pair of preds, vindi, brute and 2 units of marines charging across the board/covering fire which gives them enough to focus on that picking jsut chosen out of that may be difficult

[Zhukov]

Jeske, is it possible jsut for arguments sake, that someone may be able to, Oh I dont know, using say infiltrate or outflank, pick a area with limited los and/or cover where they can, just theoritcally place, say a unit of marines where they can shoot an intended victim, have enough power to neutralise it, and then be safe from incoming fire next turn? just asking. (sorry if it comes across rude, but seriously, dismissing them outright when if they can do this, then re-use their weps next turn sounds very plausible).

From my experience over the years I can tell that this doesn't happen a lot. In other words: Once in a time chosen will be really good, but once in a while makes a unit unreliable and thus not good for competitive play. Jeske views *everything* from that point of view, in case you didn't know. (and I believe that on forums generally you should give advice from that point of view, unless people ask for help to help and optimise a suboptimal idea. Otherwise, they don't need help to decide what's fun I hope?)

 

Every unit in this game will sometimes perform well. That does not mean it's a good unit. 1 unit of possessed might whipe 25 marines over the course of a game for example. Good units generally are reliable in way or the other.

 

I am considering this in my army, as I also have pair of preds, vindi, brute and 2 units of marines charging across the board/covering fire which gives them enough to focus on that picking jsut chosen out of that may be difficult

No, because chosen are very killy but relatively easy to kill. You make people their target priority easy by doing this.

[Nehekhare]

spafe, even under the described circumstances, terminators with combi-plasma would have done the same job AND assaulted AND survived. if the chosen were safe from incoming fire, there would also be nothing for them to fire on.

at 33pts MINIMUM for a chosen with PG, they sadly don't compare well to the 2+/5++, PW and CW you get for only 3pts more with terminators, in any situation.

[spafe]

spafe, even under the described circumstances, terminators with combi-plasma would have done the same job AND assaulted AND survived. if the chosen were safe from incoming fire, there would also be nothing for them to fire on.

at 33pts MINIMUM for a chosen with PG, they sadly don't compare well to the 2+/5++, PW and CW you get for only 3pts more with terminators, in any situation.

 

Even though if they have infil/outflanked they cant assult? so hiding round a building for no return fire then moving out in your turn to fire again in the next turn can then be done (rather than termies either be ignored cos they have killed unit on flank/used up their combi weps).

 

I know theres not a lot in it, it was more just a point that jeske out of hand says they die instantly next turn. well yes, they will if you charge them out shoot then sit in front of return fire from entire army, but my point was, out of tournies (where I have seen limited terrian) there may well be enough terrian to hide out of los of most of the army, and with even one or three extra cheap bods to catch the fire from a unit or two if you cant hide from entire army, they still seem viable.

 

I think it might jsut be where I used to play had a lot of terrian (almost bordering on city fight) which I am getting the impression isnt normal, and tournie thing of 4/5 pieces seem more normal

[Nehekhare]

nah, they're not dsmissed out of hand, though it may seem in this thread. they were discussed at length for a while now.

 

with huron, even the termis may infiltrate/outflank. not much better than their inbuilt DS. regardless, none of these deployment methods may assault first turn. what would you rather leave out in the open within plasma range for 1 turn, even if partially hidden?

 

counting on a thread to be left ignored is generally not a good tactic.

[derpasaurus]

wow. apparently i'm an anomaly. my chosen always open gigantic cans of whoop-ass, and my terminators, no matter how they arrive, almost always under-perform.

my point/experience, is/has been that outflank/infiltrate works best for me. i'm sorry but i'm not going to buy a land raider and then sit an entire extra squad out just to give 5 terminators a reliable delivery system. also, 4 meltas/plasmas/whatever sneaking up behind a line of tanks? BANG. points made. my chosen kill tanks and then burn thru the infantry around them. that's their job. MoK on a full squad gives them like, i dunno, 51 attacks on a charge. MoS means you go before almost anything and still roll 41 dice. trololol either way. and yes, i can fire my special weapons more than once.

 

you can tell me i'm wrong all day long, but it works for me. maybe my meta is completely bass-ackwards. apparently all my local terminator players are retards for not taking TH/SS anyway. so whatever. lol

[Nehekhare]

cool for you :) I had such a conversation with deepstriking oblits last ed, so I'm just gonna tell you this: if this is the case, you should continue to play them. land raiders are bad.

[VoteForPedro]

As of the new FAQ Noise Marines deserve a place on the Chaos Power Units list - they were pretty decent before the FAQ and they just got better with it.

 

A 5 man squad with a Blastmaster will set you back 125. That 5 Fearless marines, at I5, with one of the best heavy weapons in the game. As the game seems to shift from transport spam to foot infantry lists Blastmasters (and Baleflamers) will really wreck face. For 9 points more you can chuck 3 of them Sonic Blasters and add to the dakka.

[minionboy]

As of the new FAQ Noise Marines deserve a place on the Chaos Power Units list - they were pretty decent before the FAQ and they just got better with it.

 

A 5 man squad with a Blastmaster will set you back 125. That 5 Fearless marines, at I5, with one of the best heavy weapons in the game. As the game seems to shift from transport spam to foot infantry lists Blastmasters (and Baleflamers) will really wreck face. For 9 points more you can chuck 3 of them Sonic Blasters and add to the dakka.

 

I totally agree! I had them on my list for squads of 5 with 4 Sonic Blasters for 107 points, but now I can take 5 naked with a Blastmaster for 125!!! They just moved up the conversion queue to the spot right after my plague marines.

[the jeske]

Jeske, is it possible jsut for arguments sake, that someone may be able to, Oh I dont know, using say infiltrate or outflank, pick a area with limited los and/or cover where they can,

all gained through traits , which can also be given to terminators . So again how do they kill/tar pit more.

 

my point/experience, is/has been that outflank/infiltrate works best for me. i'm sorry but i'm not going to buy a land raider and then sit an entire extra squad out just to give 5 terminators a reliable delivery system. also, 4 meltas/plasmas/whatever sneaking up behind a line of tanks?

again I dont understand what stops you from infiltrating the same terminators just like the chosen . 10 chosen with 5 plasmguns with mok cost around 300 pts . around 260-70 if you dont give them veteran . now for 250 pts you get 6 termintors with with 6 combi plasma 2 powerfists and you still have around 20-40points to play with [extra dudes , marks like MoT or MoN]. terminators are more point efficient , the only time when chosen are better is when you plan to take them as long range unit and shot those plasmas for 2-3 turns , but for that you have to keep them safe[well at least those plasma dudes] .