Smash + enfeebled

[skeletoro]

A few units out there (most prominently, monstrous creatures and dreadnoughts) have a base strength above 5 and can then double it. Unless specifically stated otherwise, strength cannot be "turned up to 11" as it were, and is capped at 10.

 

My question is: what happens when a unit with str 6, doubled, is enfeebled (-1 str)? Is their str dropped to 6*2-1 =11, rounded to 10, or 6*2, rounded to 10, -1 = 9?

 

This issue is quite important for some t5 units such as Thunderwolf cavalry or command squad bikers, who have extra durability negated by instant death. Enfeeble already makes such units virtually unkillable against str 4 ap - attacks in melee, and making them never subject to double str ID in melee would just be crazy nice icing on the cake.

[Seahawk]

I find it best to read the rules, in this case, especially when it's on page 2. ;)

 

Multiply, add/subtract, set values.

 

So...

 

1. S6x2 = 10

2. 10 - 1 = 9

[Axagoras]

I would disagree, because that is for multiple modifiers at once, and since enfeebling happens before you declare a smash it works differently. You subtract it when the spell is cast, so its S6, now S5. Then during the assault phase you declare a smash, which doubles from S5 to S10. Also following your logic, s6X2 is 12, then subtract for 11, then set to 10.

[skeletoro]

Oh, I am sure it isn't resolved as (6-1)*2 = 10. I wasn't asking about that and I think page 2 is pretty clear about it. I know it's 6*2-1 following BEDMAS. My question is: does it get "capped" after every single step or does it merely cap after the final step?

 

Is it (as seahawk said):

 

6*2 = 12. CAP TO 10.

10-1 = 9.

 

OR is it:

 

6*2 = 12.

12-1 = 11. CAP TO 10.

[skeletoro]

It says "Attacks and wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10."

 

It also says: "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

 

But does each "application" count as "raising"? Or is the stat only "raised" once? The language seems very unclear on this..?

[Seahawk]

It's capped at 10. Wounds and attacks can go above 10, but only those two stats. The rest never go above 10 for any reason.

 

@Axagoras: No, that's just plain wrong. All of the modifiers are taken into account at the same time.

[Axagoras]

It's capped at 10. Wounds and attacks can go above 10, but only those two stats. The rest never go above 10 for any reason.

 

@Axagoras: No, that's just plain wrong. All of the modifiers are taken into account at the same time.

making it 10 is setting it to 10, so for the final step is to "set" making it 10, how is that "plain wrong"??

[dswanick]

I'm in the 6 X 2 - 1 set to 10 camp. Capping a stat is simply a "conditional set"( IF stat > 10 THEN stat = 10), and set values come after multiplication/division and addition/subtraction.

[skeletoro]

I think this needs to be clarified by GW. That said, the rules don't explicitly say that capping a stat is a conditional set. They seem to be phrased more as a restriction on the values that the stat can be raised to. Strength can never be raised above 10 unless a rule explicitly says so.

 

I guess the crucial question is: does the doubling, PRIOR TO applying the additions/subtractions, count as "raising" the stat above 10?

 

If the doubling counts as "raising the stat above 10", then I think Seahawk is right. If it doesn't, then maybe not.

[Azatoth]

I support Axagoras 1st post. Enfeeble is cast in the opponent's turn of the monster, it's S is 5 (assuming 6 base) at the point it declares a smash. 5x2=10.

[Seahawk]

I don't see it as a set number though.

 

The scale is 0-10, so 6x2 = 10, not 12. GW may not have perfect math, obviously, but it's no more a set value than 5x2 = 10; it's simply the result of the equation. 6x2 = 10 is the result, not a set value. The number never goes above 10.

 

A better and more troublesome question is: When do you add or subtract? Which is first? For instance, a S10 something with +1 S from Furious Charge and -1 from Enfeeble. Is it: The +1 is wasted because the number never goes over 10, and then you subtract 1, getting S9? Or is it that you subtract 1 first, then add 1 to go back up to 10? It says "then apply any additions or subtractions, then...", making it entirely worthless.

 

@Azatoth, again, that's not right. It never matters when it's cast, it only matters when you use the S value. The Hammer of Wrath attack (if it gets one) would be at S5, but the regular attacks would be at S9. Just follow the normal order of operations as detailed on page 2. Multiply, add/subtract, set value.

[Azatoth]

I don't see it as a set number though.

 

The scale is 0-10, so 6x2 = 10, not 12. GW may not have perfect math, obviously, but it's no more a set value than 5x2 = 10; it's simply the result of the equation. 6x2 = 10 is the result, not a set value.

 

@Azatoth, again, that's not right. Just follow the normal order of operations as detailed on page 2. Multiply, add/subtract, set value.

 

What is not right? Assuming my monster is affected. The substraction happened in the opponents turn. So the S is already 5 in my turn. When I smash, it is doubled to 10. The rule you refer to takes effect if both effects would happen at the same time. This is clearly not the case here.

[Seahawk]

No, both happen at the exact same time. When you smash, you have multiple effects in play at the same time: X2 strength and -1 strength. So, you simply follow the order of operations.

[Azatoth]

No, both happen at the exact same time. When you smash, you have multiple effects in play at the same time: X2 strength and -1 strength. So, you simply follow the order of operations.

 

The -1 is already in place at that time. It's S is 5 for all counts, and that is the base the x2 is calculated of.

[Seahawk]

No, please read the rules.

 

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply..."

 

In your example, the Smash rule and the Enfeeble rule are both modifying a characteristic at the same time, ie when you intend to attack. That being the case, you simply follow the order of operations. It doesn't matter that the -1 was already in place; it changes based on the order of operations on page 2.

[spafe]

I dont know exact wordings, but fwiw I read it the same as azatoth, that enemy turn, they cast, I reduce str (makes no sense to say it only applies in my turn, it should apply from moment its cast). str while under effect of spell is now 5. my turn, commencing smashing, x2 str, my str is 5 so double to 10

 

I stand very much corrected by the ninja, luckily this hasnt occured in game yet where it has mattered (was fighting T4 when it did so wouldnt change owt regardless)

[Disruptor_fe404]

When enfeebled, you have a continuous effect that gives you -1S that lasts until whenever the malediction wears off.

 

Or are people thinking that the game goes 6 - 1 = 5 once immediately and forgets that the malediction exists continuously?

[skeletoro]

I don't see it as a set number though.

 

The scale is 0-10, so 6x2 = 10, not 12. GW may not have perfect math, obviously, but it's no more a set value than 5x2 = 10; it's simply the result of the equation. 6x2 = 10 is the result, not a set value. The number never goes above 10.

 

A better and more troublesome question is: When do you add or subtract? Which is first? For instance, a S10 something with +1 S from Furious Charge and -1 from Enfeeble. Is it: The +1 is wasted because the number never goes over 10, and then you subtract 1, getting S9? Or is it that you subtract 1 first, then add 1 to go back up to 10? It says "then apply any additions or subtractions, then...", making it entirely worthless.

 

@Azatoth, again, that's not right. It never matters when it's cast, it only matters when you use the S value. The Hammer of Wrath attack (if it gets one) would be at S5, but the regular attacks would be at S9. Just follow the normal order of operations as detailed on page 2. Multiply, add/subtract, set value.

Your intuitions match mine, and I'd been wondering about additions and subtractions too! Although I lean towards your answer of 9, for the reasons you've given, I'm not 100% confident in this interpretation. "Cannot be raised above 10" is a little too vague when applied to the order of operations rules.

 

Part of the reason is that it seems a bit inconsistent. If we can use basic algebra (and I'm really not sure we can) then, for example, 2*6-4 is an equivalent statement to 2*4. If so, then can it really be said that the attribute was "raised" above 10? An order of operations was followed, yes, but did each step constitute a raising/lowering of the attribute in question? Again, my hunch is that yes, it's a raise, and is therefore capped at 10 (and enfeeble drops it to 9). But again, I'm not sure.

[alex567]

When enfeebled, you have a continuous effect that gives you -1S that lasts until whenever the malediction wears off. Or are people thinking that the game goes 6 - 1 = 5 once immediately and forgets that the malediction exists continuously?

 

When the x2 strength happens the model now has multiple strength characteristics, and we have to follow the rules for multiple modifiers, the +1 strength still aplies but because another modifier is introduces we add it at a different point, so instead of going 6-1 = 5 we introduce another modifier 6x2-1=9.

 

I agree with the strength 9, page 2 sais "a characteristic can never be raised above 10. So 6x2=12 which is now above ten, so at this point we have to apply the rule so it becomes 10, we then add the modifer of -1 which makes it 9.

[Jacinda]

I agree with the strength 9, page 2 sais "a characteristic can never be raised above 10. So 6x2=12 which is now above ten, so at this point we have to apply the rule so it becomes 10, we then add the modifer of -1 which makes it 9.

I'm not so sure the characteristic actually goes over 10 while calculations are being made.

My vote is do all the math first before setting any caps; especially since any set values (if X>10 then X=10 is setting the value to 10) are that last thing that happens. S*2 is just a mathmatical operation, it is not a characteristic and does not count as a characteristic until ALL the math is complete. In other words, the characteristic is never over 10 until you have completed all the calculations.

 

F(x) = (x*2)-1

if F(x) > 10, x = 10

if F(x) < 1, x = removed as a casualty

 

Do the math. Do trhe whole math. Then catch exceptions.

[Venemox]

Well, how about a different but very similar scenario?

 

Iron Arm + Power Fist.

 

Iron Arm, being a blessing is cast (and takes effect) in the Psyker's Movement Phase. The Power Fist doubles the strength of the wielder when it is used (you could always use your pistol, so it isn't continuously doubled). Do we end up with a Space Marine Sargent with a Strength 9 or 10 attack? The accepted answer has been, up this point, Strength 9. Normal strength (4) x2 (Power Fist), plus additions from Iron Arm (+1 to +3). This has been how the Blood Angels have been handling Furious Charge and Power Fist, as well.

 

The rule quoted on page 9 does not mention that the effects have to occur simultaneously, on that they have to exist at the same time. Multipliers, then additions/subtractions, then set values.

 

The only question in doubt is the application of the 10 maximum to stats (Excepting wounds and Attacks) during calculations. Given the verbiage of that rule (...Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10), I'm leaning to it applying during the calculation (since it doesn't give any guidance on when we can exclude that rule) and not being a specifically set modifier (since it is not derived from a piece of wargear or special rule, the initial caveat of the paragraph entitled Modifiers).

 

TL;DR... 9. Derived from 6x2=10(12 truncated), 10-1= 9, no set modifier.

[skeletoro]

Well said Venemox. I don't think it's cut and dried by any means, but your reasoning is pretty much exactly the interpretation i'm leaning towards.

[Seahawk]

Said it better than my multiple attempts to. ;)

[Jacinda]

I still see it as one single equation and therefore any extra manipulations in the middle are altering the equation.

 

The final Strength is is the result of being multiplied by 2 and then subtracting one. If the characteristic goes over 10, it is set back to 10.

 

S=(X*2)-1

S=(X+X)-1

S=X-1+X

S=-1+X+X

 

These are all identical mathmatical equations where the multiplication happens and then and additions or subtractions are applied. This is algabra in its simplest form and could even be a word problem for 5th grade. Throwing in a truncation at any point before the equation is evaluated yields different answers.

 

If we look at it as seperate steps like a program.

S=X*2

S-=1

 

There is a distinctive state after the first calculation where S would need to be cropped back to 10 and this is the way Seahawk et al are seeing it. But what if we throw Hammerhand into the mix as well?

 

S=X*2 ....................(cropped back to 10)

S+=1 ......................(hammerhand, cropped back to 10)

S-=1 ......................9

 

Most would simply look at the whole thing and say the +1 and -1 counter each other and throw those out of the equation so that you just have double Strength. But that is not following the process of doing all multiplications first, then any additions and subtractions. If we stop and correct for overages during the process we get two different results depending on who's turn it is. (because you would apply Hammerhand first or second depending on how it benefits you). However doing all the claculations at once in one equation always yields the same answer no matter how you try to rearrange the terms.

 

But then again, my BS is in Math so maybe I am trying to hard to see things as equations. Once I put a problem into a mathmatical formula I tend to see just numbers and not the game as whole.

 

 

I guess it is too late to get this in the FAQ ... :lol:

[stephane4985]

The way I see it is that you do the calculation to figure out what is you characteristic at the moment you use it. The calculation is the process of determining the characteristic and you don't know the value until you finish the calculation. So the value of the characteristic is still unknow during the calculation. The value you get during the calculation, at each steps, are only temporary values use to store temporary results, that in the end will give what is your characteristic.

 

After that, when you do get the value of the characteristic, you then apply the rule saying it cannot go over 10.

 

When you have strength 3, and must apply str * 2 + 1, your initial str is 3 and the modified str is 7. You never have str 6. The temporary value of the calculation is 6 at one point, but never your str.