Smash + enfeebled

[alex567]

The rules for the attack is "double your strength", so while you are doing calculations you are doubling the strength, now I understand 6x2 is 12 but as previously stated the strength can never go above 10, but by doubling the strength to 12 you have gone above 10, because it is still a strength characteristic, this is then brought down to 9 by the negative modifier.

 

I agree with the way Venemox worded it.

[Venemox]

For those arguing that the interim score is never a characteristic, and therefore not subject to the limitation of 10, let us think that all the way through. IF, as in stephane4985's example, the interim 6 was never considered to be the characteristic Strength, the +1 bonus to Strength would never be able to be added to it after the initial doubling. It is, after all, a +1 to Strength (the characteristic , and not a +1 to 'the unnamed number mid-calculation formerly, and destined to be (again), known as Strength'.

 

The rule of 'maximum 10' gives us a comprehensive, exhaustive list of when we don't apply it. Anything speculation or hypothesis, that isn't the characteristics Attacks or Wounds, needs very explicit citation of sources to support it.

 

And Jacinda brings up a good point about +1/-1 to a characteristic in the same equation. Jacinda is correct that the answer will depend upon who's turn it is (BRB, page 9, 'the player whose turn it is decides the order...). However, his her BS in math (very nice, by the way!) may be hindering him her in this case. As evidenced by the statement on page 5 of the BRB, under the header 'Dividing to Conquer', the concern for 'proper mathematics' is eschewed in favor of game theory. (10% of 21 being 3, for those wondering). The fact that the final Characteristic value would be different depending upon whose turn it is, while interesting, is not relevant to the application of the 'maximum 10'. The very existence of a rule (page 9) that specifically deals with this sort of conflict in a way that is equitable (each play gets to take advantage of the benefit, during their respective turns) AND in a predictable manner, allows us to continue to apply that 'maximum 10' at all times.

 

edit: I thought I had left my last paragraph gender neutral, thank you for the correction.

[Jacinda]

It's "Her" BTW. But I see what you are saying.

 

And it is nice to be able to debate a point when we can at least all see each other's side and understand where the confusion comes in.

 

Like most things ... discuss with your gaming group and find a consensus you can all live with.

[skeletoro]

The problem is, the rules don't give us the answer. We've formulated two fairly *coherent* interpretations of the rules. But are they the correct interpretations? It's anybody's guess.

 

The rules are quite close to outright saying that each step constitutes a "raising" but they don't actually use that word - they say "first APPLY, then APPLY..."

 

Also, the +1/-1 issue wouldn't be a problem if you applied all multiplications as one step, then all additions and subtractions as one step, then all set values at once (?!). Again, rules don't make it clear that this is how you should do it, but they seem consistent with doing it that way, at least: "first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions..."

[Venemox]

I do agree with Jacinda's last statement. What is most important isn't what we discuss here and now, but at your gaming group. If it takes longer than a minute to talk about it during a game, dice off and decide later. Most importantly, keep the game moving and keep discussions amicable. There are going to be disagreements, let's handle them politely.

 

And skeletoro does make a good point. Performing the calculations in chunks would change the outcome, sometimes significantly. Just to throw a real wrench in the works, does anyone know of a special rule or piece of wargear that divides the Characteristic by a value? I can't think of any, off the top of my head, but I barely know the special rules and wargear for my army alone...

[stephane4985]

Like smash that halves the number of attack? Or for a characteristic that can't go over 10?

[skeletoro]

There's a USR that halves initiative.