Warrior Accolytes or IG?

[Gentlemanloser]

Welcome back! And happy new year! While the B&C doesn't stick out as much at work now, the new format is going to take a while to get used to.

 

Let me preface this post by saying I don't really like the 'army men'. Never have. Even when we could ally with them in our old Codex, I didn't use them. And this thread will be difficult to discuss, due to the continued restrictions on Allies. :(

 

That aside, I'm finding myself drawn more and more towards introducing Warrior Accolytes to my GK lists. And in increasing numbers. But if I'm going to do that, why not go the whole hog and just ally in some IG?

 

As we can't really bring up the IG to discuss, I guess this thread will have to focus on Warrior Accolytes (not henchmen overall) and what they bring over IG.

 

I've probably missed stuff, but off the top of my head I've got;

 

1) Doesn't use an Ally slot

2) Full Squad armed with Storm Bolters

3) Access to GK Razorbacks

 

Problem is, I've already got an in codex unit that's fully armed with Storm Bolters which unlocks GK Razors (well more than one!). Sure, WA are much cheaper. But then when not replace *all* my other Squads with SB totting Warrior Accolytes. ;)

 

HQ tax aside (which just like for GK, isn't really an issue for IG), if I plan on adding WA to my lists, why not go for IG instead?

[spafe]

Depends on the scale of them, as if you jsut want a unit, well I'd go 6/7 storm bolters, a jokaro, and maybe a crusader to tank the odd incoming hits. you're looking at a unit that can sit in cover, defend itself with flamer overwatch and 3++ tank, claim objectives, has heavy wep and chance for odd boost to a lot more bolter shots, and all for under 100 points easily. In a gk list that seems very useful.

 

If however you are looking for a greater investment (model count and points), then getting a platoon, psyker and unlocking arty and flyer options (if thats your thing) then imp seem more attractive.

 

Unit of guard with heavy wep and spec will come to about 75 points, have less damage output, be less mobile, less of a threat to charge. I'd pay the extra 10/15 points for much better unit personally if you didnt want the unlock

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Henchmen and IG are different beasts. They aren't replacements for one another really.

 

IG bring a tonne of bodies dirt-cheap, that won't run (Stubborn Ld9 Commissar), and can spam autocannon+plasma gun as well as a billion light beams under 'FRFSRF'. De Blob is a powerful addition to our army, as it costs about as much as one of our PA squads. They also have the best Flyer in the game, period (Night Scythes, for the billionth time, are terrible and die to Vendettas in seconds), and awesome tanks in squadrons. Chimera spam died with the introduction of HP, but AV14 squadrons are still great.

 

Henchmen bring fire support or melee (never both), in a compact and cheap package. In fire support mode, they bring cheaper plasma/melta spam than even IG, not to mention dirt-cheap storm bolters. Backed up by equally absurdly cheap 'Prescience' Inquisitors for Stubborn Ld10, they stick around until killed and pump out re-rollable death. Plasma servitors also have no analogue in any other Ally option, they're even more stupidly cheap than IG tanks in that role.

Melee warbands are dirt-cheap (Tac squad) and provide a nice mauling/harassment option. They do require a Raven and usually a Tech-Marine too, but they are worth it. They'll at least maul most of the annoyances in the game (Hammernators get a tonne of axe wounds to the face, DW Knights get tanked by the Crusaders then axed in the face, Biker Nobz get chewed up by raw sword wounds and their powerklaw gets tanked).

 

Both are pretty worthwhile options, but you generally can't afford both in the same force (unless you go really low on the Knights). So, decide what benefits your force more, then make a decision.

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye, but I'm not really comparing Plasma Cannon Servitors, or Crusaders/DCA to IG.

 

Only our choice of using Warrior Accolytes.

 

Do we really get better low cost Plasma/Melta options with Warriors compared to IG? And while Inquisitors are great to boost the low Ld/lack of ATSKNF/Fearless you'll get at most one in a Warrior Squad. As Coteaz is with the Plasma Cannon Servitors to stop Mindlock. ;)

 

Where as IG have more access to Commisars/Priests.

 

If I want a Plasma Cannon squad, I'll use a Servitor Henchmen Squad. But if I'm thinking of getting some low cost Warrior Accolyte bodies to flesh out my otherwise low mini count, why don't I go IG?

[spafe]

It comes back to how many points you want to invest. The squads of plasma/auto spam, are 75 each, with a 70 point tax in ccs and pcs (who can admitidly have their own weps). so your looking at minimum of 220 points, prob 250 ish with extra weps on tax units.

 

for that you can get 30 guys with stormbolters, and 3 swapping up to plasma guns (either in one squad or one in each etc) for 241. so you end up with a trade, imp you have (4 plasma, 4 auto, 30 men, all rest with lasgun), or inq you have (3 plasma, 27 stormbolter). obvs either can be swapped a little, a 4th plasma brings you to 249 actually, so its equal plasma.

 

once you add more points, well depends whether you want a different ally slot or access to arty etc. but overall I think I'd be taking the inq troops with slight changes (why not make most of extra weps for cheap etc).

[Gentlemanloser]

Hmmm. More equal than I expected. What with things like FRFSRF for the flash lights.

[spafe]

Well it increases the chance of them doing 'something' assuming your not targetting light tanks. Without a target etc I can only guess, but I would prefer assult 2 over rapid fire. always 2 shots while retreating/advancing/moving in general. both unlock chrimeras if your so inclined (although inq come off better I say as you drop your units to 5 with 3 plasma saving points, but thats getting off what your after).

 

If you jst want to set up, use the odd orders to help (bring it down on a blob of 4 autos and 2 plasmas re-rolling springs to mind) then your golden if you dont need the ally slot. If you want to be more flexible, I'd go with 3 plasma per unit. can move, and both units put out 3 str 7 shots, (if your moving I'll assume you can make sure your in range) with potential to jump into rapid fire easier.

 

Hopethat helps (im trying not to be biased but I honestly would go extra henchmen, why would you take cortez if your not going to make most of scoring henchies lol)

 

Edit: also, sorry for repliying a lot, I like this thread as it makes me consider why I want to take grey knights over guard as allys for my BA so I find it very interesting lol

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh don't apologise! I'd love more ally discussion on the B&C. ;)

 

Originally I used WA with Bolters (to keep them cheap), but have started replacing those with SB. Problem was, I've got SB squads, and rather need units that fill other roles. Lots of cheap bodies are cool, but my INQ-less Henchmen Squads have run far too much for my tatses (or been sweeped into oblivion!).

 

I also don't own enough Rhinos (I'm not a tread head, another strike against using the Army Men!) to make my reason "must take some cheap Henchmen Squads to unlock another Razor". I've got three, and can include all three as DTs for existing GK squads. I suppose if I decided to ditch all the PA guys (or run Interceptors) and use TDA as Troops with Henchmen (to keep mini count up), I'd be able to uses the Henchmen to fill two roles. Cheap bodies and Razor unlocks.

 

But I can't let go of my PAGK.

 

I have the nagging feeling that if I do, I might just as well go play another army.

 

If that all makes sense! lol

[spafe]

Yeah I get where your coming from. I'm allying knights so I get a unit of silver PA on the field, jsut inq and hench are nice bonus lol.

 

 

I would give your inq hench SB and 3 P/gun per squad. this will add more stopping power and let them threaten all units plus move forwards, take and hold ground (which is pushing what a guard equivlant can do). If they are too often getting swpet in a turn, swap out 2 guys for crusaders to tarpit

 

hmm, well if your not interested in unlocking arty, and dont like chrimeras then guard are less appealing form that point. your inq are ld 8, guard are only 7 if they lose sgt, and the much vaunted 'stick a commisar in' doesnt hold with me as you could jsut have a jokaro instead for extra heavy+chance to boost units weps.

 

If they are getting caught in combat, and you dont like them dying, well guard will go jsut as fast, sorry. Also im not having a dig, but i'm going to guess your used to playing marines of the loyal kind for a while? having played inf guard alot, and chaos without lots of fearless I can tell you units running from shooting is rarer than the internet makes out. yes it happens (and with chaos its annoying), but tbh LD should be something that impacts games. If you play guard or inq hench I'd say dont get attached, expect to lose em (how many times you seen the films where the hard as looking spec ops teams (who you never see their faces!) are wiped out brutally by main good/bad guy? this is the role of your inq hench, but in doing so, hopefully taking down a load of enemy with them. they cost the same as guard, they have high damage output, but same staying power. sorry I got on my high horse a bit, *steps off soap box*

[Gentlemanloser]

:D

 

I've been playing GKs (and for once now miss the army wide Fearless!) since I returned during 4th edition. Played Eldar back in the RT days. ;) I really dislike not having ASTKNF. :P

 

Vendetta unlocks are cool. Big blobs not as interesting, as not being battle brothers, we can't play any "add an IC for massive buffs" shenanigans. :'(

 

One thing Guard do have going fro them is that I wouldn't be forced into taking Coteaz for a HQ slot (Yeah I know he's good and all, but sometimes I just want a GKGM for TGS, or a 55 point Divinity Inq!)

[spafe]

Yeah if you take either of these options you will have to be ready to lose them. one way to think about it though is you get 30 boys for cost of a unit of 10 strikes... can soften blow.

 

Was thinking about other things that will make them differ. they can have same kp, but give them up very differently, as guard could blob 20 but other 2 are 5 man GEQ. inq have round 10 man in each lot. also 30 scoring troops as aposed to 25 and 5 hq. however the hq are bs4, so loading up on plasma there may pay out.

 

If you take a GM as well though, he could lead one of those squads to tank for them, and add some cc clout (as I dont think a termi blob would need the help overly) if you go inq hench. guard are a lot more defensive and stationary by nature though, which I dont think I like with rest of army being so aggresive, although may keep them out of harms way a lot better

 

Locking you into cotez is a major drawback, although as he isnt too much, I'd look to fitting in a 2nd hq if that was an issue

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Do we really get better low cost Plasma/Melta options with Warriors compared to IG? And while Inquisitors are great to boost the low Ld/lack of ATSKNF/Fearless you'll get at most one in a Warrior Squad. As Coteaz is with the Plasma Cannon Servitors to stop Mindlock.

Guard players don't usually attach anything to their Veteran squads, so I guess the point I was making is at 2k we can get better support to them (with the 3 HQ slots aside from Coteaz). Not that you have to, as they are absurdly cheap in any case (42pts for the 3-man suicide squad, and then add as many cheap ablative wounds as you wish). Add in Rhino+Razor+Chimera access over just Chimeras (ignoring Vendettas, as like Ravens they are an external and expensive factor), yeah Henchmen are better than IG Veterans. BS4 is nice but both die the same.

Locking you into cotez is a

major

d

rawback

, although as he isnt too much, I'd look...

That's not how you spell 'amazingly cheap support HQ'

IG are the cheapest horde Imperial army bar none. If all you want is tonnes of scoring and table presence, they supply it.

For absurdly cheap plasma/melta spam and equally dirt-cheap storm bolter spam, Henchmen are unbeaten by any codex. IG pay the BS4 tax on Veterans, we don't.

There are tradeoffs to both options, so it largely comes down to what you want out of your army. If your Knight core needs some plasma/melta auxilaries, Henchmen bring it and some extra bolter dakka for mowing down grunts. If you really need scoring (Paladinwing, Knightwing, Purifier builds), IG bring a gorillion manz which refuse to fall back or die. They also have tanks, a novelty for us Knight players (poor Land Raider pool, gathering dust on Titan...).

[saffo]

As we can't really bring up the IG to discuss, I guess this thread will have to focus on Warrior Accolytes (not henchmen overall) and what they bring over IG.

 

IG are part of the boards now, so I think we are allowed to talk about them as allies as long as they adhere to the usual set of rules regarding talking about things as allies that are also posted in another section. Is that accurate?

[Gentlemanloser]

My word! so they are!

When did the B&C relent on it's 'Power Armour Only' stance? If that's changed, maybe we could get the terrible stance on ally discussions reversed as well?

Edit: INP/Thade, the stickied 'Allies' post seems a little, outdated now.

Edit2: Found the announcement thread.

Our Allies Policy will not change. We are not going to open up the forums to the discussion of Xenos beyond how it is detailed in the linked thread.

:(

[spartan249]

I look at this situation this way. After weighing the options, I've decided that offensive output is my paramount goal, and in that context, I take Henchmen.

 

Point for point, Henchmen bring more firepower then IG. Cheaper plasma guns, offensively cheap plasma cannons, Orangutans with Captain Planet rings, and 5 point guys with Bolters doesn't have much competition coming from IG. Add in Prescience, and the point n'click killing power of the unit is without question better then most single IG options.

 

What IG bring to the table is a huge amount of scoring dudes and a better air defense options as well as artillery. Where they may lack in firepower, they pretty much ensure that your home objectives will be held against all but the most concerted attack, freeing up the GK part of the list to go on the offensive with no worries about the rear line.

[saffo]

Also,

If your using Coteaz the henchmen are going to compete for space in the number of "troops" you can take. A single troop selection in guard can have a lot more individual squads added to it that can be broken out before the game. So yeah, if you need to add more bodies, henchmen max out at a certain point compared to guardsmen. For relative price, henchmen make great "veteran" equivs for the warrior acolytes.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Also,

If your using Coteaz the henchmen are going to compete for space in the number of "troops" you can take. A single troop selection in guard can have a lot more individual squads added to it that can be broken out before the game. So yeah, if you need to add more bodies, henchmen max out at a certain point compared to guardsmen. For relative price, henchmen make great "veteran" equivs for the warrior acolytes.

 

Not really. Knight squads are so expensive, and you have six Troops slots. You'll run out of points before you run out of Troops. Even in my 2k and 2.5k lists, I only just break out the 7th or 8th Troop slot (and I could realistically cut them out for more support units if I wanted to).

 

IG Infantry squads really shouldn't be used individually. You give up a bajillion KP that way, its better to Blob. It also makes giving them Orders more efficient, as you can give a single Order that affects 30-50 models at once. Same for psychic support and other buffs (tee hee, Azrael).