DAs turned renegade, are they considered 'Fallen'?

[Xeraxen]

Indeed, are any DA marines who turn renegade in recent 41st millennium history considered Fallen and added to the Book of Names, or is the Book reserved for the defectors on Caliban with Luther before it blew up?

 

Also, how does our chapter handle recent renegades? [As awesome as the DA are, they cannot claim perfection like the Ghey Knights, we're bound to have a few defectors over the millenia since Calban.] Do we snuff them out asap or keep our attentions on the original Fallen?

[Avon Rekaes]

This topic is HERESEY!

 

...Okay, seriously, that's a good question. I'd imagine we'd add them to the Book of Names and treat them with the same or even greater fervor. Also, obstenibly, they'd be easier to hunt, maybe, having not been tossed through time and space while a planet exploded around them.

[EPK]

No Dark Angel has ever been recorded to have gone renegade! How dare you.

 

If it did happen, no, they would not be Fallen (in my opinion), they would just be renegade scum who have turned form the Emperor's Light and Lion's Grace.. Regardless they would be snuffed ASAP I would say.

 

What would be interesting if said Renegades actually defected due to finding out more about what had actually happened regarding the Fallen - perhaps even seeking Fallen out themselves. These would be dangerous men indeed because of the knowledge they have.

 

But that is blasphemy.

[Brother Darklight]

I'm going to say they probably add them to the list. They're committing the same offense, I'd assume the get the same punishment.

 

Also, how does our chapter handle recent renegades? ... Do we snuff them our asap or keep our attentions on the original Fallen?

 

If you handle it anything like us Templars, you probably handle it with your Bolter/Chainsword/Crozius! :D

 

Seriously, I'd imagine that the idea is count them as fallen/traitors and wipe em out. Standard Operating Procedure for DA is not tell anyone anything, anyway. No one would find out if the evidence is dealt with right away.

[EPK]

They can't be added to the book or deemed Fallen because only parts of the 2nd Co. along with the 1st Co. and Inner Circle even know what the Fallen are. Marines would know if their fellows went renegade, or at least missing. They would certainly be hunted, but they are not the Fallen in my mind.

 

Renegades aren't in the same boat as "Traitors" in my mind either. Those who turned traitor during the Heresy are in a different league.

[elphilo]

I believe all the answers you're looking for are in Chamber 42 :D

[Avon Rekaes]

Wouldn't the chapter leadership be informed after a marine went rogue? I'm not sure what only 1st and 2nd company being "in the know" has to do with it. Company Masters are also Inner Circle and in-the-know, and I'm sure they'd be told if someone in their company went rogue.

[Seifer]

I always understood it as the Fallen were hunted so remorselessly because they could reveal the betrayal of the Calibanites. If a nowadays Dark Angel went rogue he wouldn't have any knowledge of the 'fall' and therefor wouldn't be the same kind of threat to the chapter.

 

So I think they would hunt him down but not with the same effort as a Fallen member.

[Artemid]

I would also be surprised if many Dark Angels went rogue since the Heresy, given how extra-closely everyone is watched and scrutinized for signs of taint and corruption.

[EPK]

Wouldn't the chapter leadership be informed after a marine went rogue? I'm not sure what only 1st and 2nd company being "in the know" has to do with it. Company Masters are also Inner Circle and in-the-know, and I'm sure they'd be told if someone in their company went rogue.

 

A fair point. But that also doesn't tell me why they would add some random nobody marine to the most important list of names they have ever had in the last 10K years.

 

And my point was that rank and file marines would be aware of renegades. In fact, it's something they would actually be allowed to know... unless Inner Circle would try to cover that up as well.

 

I always understood it as the Fallen were hunted so remorselessly because they could reveal the betrayal of the Calibanites. If a nowadays Dark Angel went rogue he wouldn't have any knowledge of the 'fall' and therefor wouldn't be the same kind of threat to the chapter.

 

So I think they would hunt him down but not with the same effort as a Fallen member.

 

Agreed, which is why I mentioned it would be interesting if someone that did have the knowledge of the Fallen went renegade.

[Seifer]

But could someone with knowledge of the Fall be allowed to defect? With all the checks and balances in place I would think it near impossible for that to happen. The chaplains (and Interrogator Chaplains especially) would be searching for any sign of wavering loyalty and the Codex does mention several instances of when people have disappeared from with the chapter.

[EPK]

But could someone with knowledge of the Fall be allowed to defect? With all the checks and balances in place I would think it near impossible for that to happen. The chaplains (and Interrogator Chaplains especially) would be searching for any sign of wavering loyalty and the Codex does mention several instances of when people have disappeared from with the chapter.

 

I totally agree... which makes it even that much more interesting, if say, a novel was written around it.

[Seifer]

But could someone with knowledge of the Fall be allowed to defect? With all the checks and balances in place I would think it near impossible for that to happen. The chaplains (and Interrogator Chaplains especially) would be searching for any sign of wavering loyalty and the Codex does mention several instances of when people have disappeared from with the chapter.

 

I totally agree... which makes it even that much more interesting, if say, a novel was written around it.

 

Very true. That reminds me that at the beginning of 'Ravenwing' the is talk of an Interrogator Chaplain who turns his back on the Chapter. Now I haven't read 'Angels of Darkness' so I don't know the full story of what happened there but Sammael and his 'command squad' don't refer to him as having Fallen, merely turned against the chapter.

[shabbadoo]

As to the thread title and question, yes. A Dark Angel who "falls from grace" is Fallen, though it would not be surprising if the Dark Angels made a distinction between a fallen Dark Angel and The Fallen.

[EPK]

But could someone with knowledge of the Fall be allowed to defect? With all the checks and balances in place I would think it near impossible for that to happen. The chaplains (and Interrogator Chaplains especially) would be searching for any sign of wavering loyalty and the Codex does mention several instances of when people have disappeared from with the chapter.

 

I totally agree... which makes it even that much more interesting, if say, a novel was written around it.

 

Very true. That reminds me that at the beginning of 'Ravenwing' the is talk of an Interrogator Chaplain who turns his back on the Chapter. Now I haven't read 'Angels of Darkness' so I don't know the full story of what happened there but Sammael and his 'command squad' don't refer to him as having Fallen, merely turned against the chapter.

 

I thought of the same thing actually (though Boreas's actions/message was a little more complex than that - but I'll not go in to depth so not to spoil it - he certainly wasn't a renegade). What if another event played out very similarly but this time said Chaplain actually did turn and go renegade.

 

As to the thread title and question, yes. A Dark Angel who "falls from grace" is Fallen, though it would not be surprising if the Dark Angels made a distinction between a fallen Dark Angel and The Fallen.

 

I can agree to that, notably the second part. I think a distinction would be made in the same way one could be made between Traitors and Renegades.

[Phoebus]

I don't know, I have a pretty hard time seeing a modern Dark Angel going renegade. Believe me, it doesn't have to do with being a fan of the Chapter. I base what I say on the context of the Dark Angels and the way they do things.

 

As an aside, someone already brought up the Grey Knights. Personally, I don't think it's a big deal for the Grey Knights to have never turned. Central to their concept is the fact that they're all psychic. 'The Emperor's Gift' gives us a brilliant depiction of the support structure that these powers would provide. Forget a long-term moral slide that would lead to turning traitor; the leader of the squad depicted in said novel is able to sense when his troops are getting distracted or annoyed - and warns them accordingly. I'm not saying it's by any means a cake walk for the Grey Knights to be infallible; I'm just saying they have an edge that helps them out.

 

Where the Dark Angels are concerned, the reason why I can accept them not ever going renegade is because of how the Chapter leadership - the Inner Circle, specifically - handle their battle-brothers, how they control information, and how they've put in place this long-term indoctrination process.

 

One really interesting thing about Telemenus from 'Ravenwing', for instance, was the insinuation that the Chapter selectively mind-wipes the battle-brothers after they've seen something undesirable. That's a concept that goes back to Ian Watson's 'Space Marine' and 'The Inquisition Wars' novels, but it's not something that Black Library (or Games Workshop, in general) have touched in quite a long time. While any reader/gamer might have been justified in dismissing the idea where other Chapters are concerned due it being so old and unused, I think we have to assume that it at least might apply to the Dark Angels.

 

Beyond that, we know that most Chapters control the time schedule of their battle-brothers pretty ruthlessly, but I think it's fair to say that the Dark Angels go a step beyond that. They are a monastic Chapter driven by its ideology, for one thing. Their Chaplains seem to focus even more on discipline (in the latest Codex, Asmodai put a ban on talking - with the exception for battle communications and hymnals - to an entire Company for a year).

 

Trust is the absolutely most defining edict of the Chapter. In the past, Chaplains that didn't meet the standards of trust when considered for the position of Interrogator-Chaplain were mind-wiped. Now, they just disappear. Between this kind of "safety measure" and the implied usage of selectively mind-wiping unwanted memories from line battle-brothers, how likely is it that someone will really get to a point where outright treason is a viable option? And along those lines, we have to remember that the Inner Circle is everywhere. It could be the Apothecary that's watching you for battle-stress. It could be the Veteran Sergeant who monitors the relationships within the larger Company or just his squad. It's definitely the Company Master, and it's most definitely the mind-reading Librarian.

 

Bottom line, I don't think there's a Loyalist Chapter out there that is as defined by the pain of treachery as the Dark Angels (and their Unforgiven brethren)... and I think it's also fair to say that no other Chapter focuses so much on ensuring that they don't fall down that path again.

[Avon Rekaes]

Very eloquently put, Phoebus, you almost have me convinced.

 

But there's just one naggling little doubt in the back of my mind that keeps saying "Well, sure, but 10,000 years is a VERY long time for a perfect track record, without a single solitary slip-up ever".

 

Suppose I should report to Chamber 42 for this heretical thought.

[Brother Ambroz]

Hmm interesting. What about Dark Angels captured by traitors? There are a few instances of loyalists getting captured, tortured and reindoctrinated until they go insane. Just trying to think of ways we can turn you all to the dark side....

[Phoebus]

Avon,

 

As well you should! It's alright, I'll be the first to lend you a hand once they let you out. ;)

[Ronin_eX]

The hunt of the Fallen is largely to keep the secret a secret. The Fallen are those that know the truth about the Chapter's civil war and so they are hunted remorselesly. The fear that modern Dark Angels will defect and let the secret out is the whole reason for the Deathwing, the Inner Circle and the layers of truth. The most likely Dark Angels to rebel are those who know nothing because they may not have the mental fortitude required to be loyal above all else. There is a reason why each level in the Chapter requires much observation and testing. This allows them to determine who can be trusted and who cannot. At best it leaves some marines wallowing in a Company Veteran squad until the day he dies, a worst it has them disappearing.

 

Dark Angels will still go rogue (they aren't Grey Knights after all), but it would be increasingly rare the higher up you go in the chapter (the Inner Circle has made certain of it). We know the Dark Angels can go rogue if only because we have seen Red Corsairs in defaced Dark Angels armour (the customary red 'X' over their Chapter symbol to show that they have broken their ties).

 

But while the Dark Angels will hate and hunt them, they do not fear them as the Fallen because they likely know nothing. Due to the vetting process of moving up in the ranks of the Dark Angels it would be increasingly rare to find anyone in the Inner Circle who went rogue. Probably happened at least once in the 10,000 years since the fall, but probably not a very common occurence. But certainly they have a certain amount of attrition from the rank and file. I wonder how the Disciples of Caliban rank though. With such a pedigree and focus on purity and loyalty I would be suprised with they saw many rogue marines ever come from their ranks.

[Phoebus]

I don't know... sounds like a lot of heretical conjecture to me!

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

It might be possible for a DA to turn traitor, but no, they are probably not considered Fallen.

 

I say might, as Phoebus raises the same argument I subscribe too: that the indoctrination of the DA is too focused on preventing betrayal to allow it to happen. As for an Astartes captured, I think they would be more likely to break and go insane/die before turning traitor willingly.

[JeffJedi]

I believe the DA with the red X's were actually working under cover to get closer to Huron Blackheart and assassinate him...

[Jorre]

Well the very fact that so many of them turned during he heresy proves that they in the very least are capable of turning!

 

You also have to remember that, turning is not something that a marines does! He does not just wake up and decide to go for a walk in the warp! When a marine or group of marines turn it's usually because they have been manipulated or tricked/forced into a situation they are not able to cope with! Some marines are more capable of dealing with this kind of pressure and I guess high level Dark Angels would be some of the best! But definitely not immune to it!

 

Any marine can be turned in the right environment with the right pressures, I would even argue that it's possible for grey knights to be turned! Just because it's never happened before does not mean its impossible, also with the grey knights constant mind wiping and population culls to maintain there secrecy who's to say it has not already happened we just don't know about it??

[Phoebus]

Jorre, Heresy-era Dark Angels and post-Inner Circle Dark Angels are completely different animals.

 

JeffJedi, is there an illustration with Dark Angel Corsairs out there? Topic aside, I'd love to see it! :)