DAs turned renegade, are they considered 'Fallen'?

[Xeraxen]

is there an illustration with Dark Angel Corsairs out there? Topic aside, I'd love to see it!

Here ya go! The renegade scum is on the upper right, above the mongrel.

https://1-media-cdn....52329538111.jpg

[Phoebus]

Clearly a Fallen who joined the Red Corsairs after looting the power armour from a slain son of the Lion!

[Djulius]

As mentioned in another thread, consider this:

 

Common pattern in such levelled, secretive, pyramid structures is the introduction of obfuscation... i.e. deliberate mangling of the truth for various reasons:

 

1) it provides (false) answers to certain questions that would be raised from a bit more knowledge with gaps in order to fill the gaps and stop the questions.

2) it provides a test mechanism if different subjects provided with different mis-truths, traceable back to source if leaked.

3) it provides something to gauge the reaction of the subject, if they struggle with this they couldn't handle the truth!

4) it provides plausible deniability if subject leaks to another authority, "that bit's clearly bo££ocks, why should you believe anything else he says?"

5) it means that if subject goes renegade that his information is unreliable and potentially worthless

 

As subject goes up levels of trust (or into deeper levels of circles) the obfuscations are corrected... but who's to say he isn't fed more?

 

With such a policy in place the risks of renegades are reduced compared to THE Fallen who do have a consistent set of true facts that would be problematic.

[Brother Immolator]

I would also be surprised if many Dark Angels went rogue since the Heresy, given how extra-closely everyone is watched and scrutinized for signs of taint and corruption.

 

This. I would go as far as to say that the DA have the best locks in place to prevent such things than any other chapter.

BTW Grey knights are not incorruptible anymore. They are hard as nails to corrupt yes, but it no longer stated that they cant. Plus there are a few evidences of them succumbing. I.E. Alaric been taken over by khornate rage.

[Xeraxen]

Alaric been taken over by khornate rage.

Ooh! When did this happen?

The GK bathe in the blood of Bolter Bit- I mean Sisters of Battle, so they're kinda already corrupted in another way. XD

[AngelVeto]

I think cell 42 is a bit crowded, might have to go and open up 43 for all this heresy!

 

On topic (kinda) I think it might have been hammer of daemons, before the whole bathing in blood thing happened.

[Brother Immolator]

Alaric been taken over by khornate rage.

Ooh! When did this happen?

The GK bathe in the blood of Bolter Bit- I mean Sisters of Battle, so they're kinda already corrupted in another way. XD

Among other things: Demon hosts?Demon blades anyone? Although that both can be argued that they are so pure to control them...yeah right.

Cant remember the name of the novel precicely because I had read it a long time ago sorry. It must be Hammer of Daemons or the The Emperor's Gift.

[EPK]

I think cell 42 is a bit crowded, might have to go and open up 43 for all this heresy!

 

Yea, I swear I've seen that said more in the last couple weeks than I have in the last couple months, lol... 43 is already Azzy's sewing room - gots to fix all those robes... I hear 49 is nice this time of year.

[Phoebus]

I summon this thread back to life to tie in the new fluff from 'Pandorax':

 

 

Corpulax, a turncoat Concecrator who sold his soul to Nurgle and considers himself a Fallen is denounced by Azrael, Gabriel, and Asmodai. Azrael reveals to him that only those Dark Angels who were corrupted by Luther are considered Fallen. Only they can hope to be redeemed. Dark Angels and their Successors who turn for selfish reasons do not merit to be counted amongst the Fallen, and thus can't hope for redemption. Corpulax, who was anticipating defying the Dark Angels for years in the Rock, is summarily executed.

 

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I summon this thread back to life to tie in the new fluff from 'Pandorax':

 

 

Corpulax, a turncoat Concecrator who sold his soul to Nurgle and considers himself a Fallen is denounced by Azrael, Gabriel, and Asmodai. Azrael reveals to him that only those Dark Angels who were corrupted by Luther are considered Fallen. Only they can hope to be redeemed. Dark Angels and their Successors who turn for selfish reasons do not merit to be counted amongst the Fallen, and thus can't hope for redemption. Corpulax, who was anticipating defying the Dark Angels for years in the Rock, is summarily executed.

 

 

HAH that is awesome. And reinforces my own opinion of the topic :)

[Kasper_Hawser]

Sigh, the tragedy of a legion that spends about HALF of its time looking for corruption within their own legion. I mean I know looking out for corruption is standard among ALL Space Marine Chapters, even the ones who are extremely close knit like the Space Wolves are also diligiently watched by their Rune Priests and Wolf Priests. But to serve and live in a chapter that forever bears the burden of a past that is not even theirs anymore....

 

... I guess that's what makes a Dark Angel a Dark Angel. Grim, stubborn and utterly resigned to a lifetime of fear of the truth getting out. Well, for the Inner Circle anyway. For the average Dark Angel Tac marine, I guess they still have an illusion of being in a "noble" chapter and proud of it.

 

I know the cannonicity of Angel of Darkness by Gav Thorpe is kinda a thorny issue, but I feel he did capture the whole moral dillema of secrets within secrets affecting the whole chapter, until even Interrogator Chaplain Boreas sorta realises how damaging it is to himself and his own fellow battle brothers. The reaction of the other Dark Angels when Boreas revealed about the Fallen was well captured as they saw the illusions of their noble chapter torn down, but then grimly accepted the truth with stoic resignation.

 

Anyway to answer the Original Poster's question, yeah, renegade Dark Angels in recent years are NOT Fallen, just normal traitors if there is such a thing. The Fallen, as mentioned before, the Dark Angels feel it is their duty to get them to REPENT as opposed to being exterminated.

[march10k]

Any modern renegades would be dealt with the same way that any other chapter deals with them.  They would be a separate case from the fallen...unless, as I think someone said, they're in on the secret, in which case they get the same secret treatment as the fallen, but whether or not they are added to the list, I don't know.

[Aegnor]

I don't think the DAs are likely to suffer less defections than any other well run chapter. Yes, they have the system of different levels of knowledge and vetting and watching (always with the watching). At the same time though, they have a legacy that goes with those protective factors that works the other way. Members of the Deathwing and Ravenwing learn that their chapter isn't as pure as they'd previously believed. They learn that treachery is possible. They learn *doubt*.

 

The DA have refined the process of choosing who can bear such revelations down to an artform. But I'd bet they still end up having to mindwipe a proportion of people they try to indoctrinate into the secret, because those people just end up not being able to handle it.

 

Equally, those who do know the secret will always be at a greater risk of going renegade than they otherwise would have been. Some will never be swayed by this and will only have their faith strenghened, but there will be a proportion who are weakened by it, even if the harm isn't immediately apparent. So for all the protective factors they have, that probably only gets them back to "even".

 

None of this is to knock the DAs by the way. I think acknowledging what a burdeb the knowledge of Luther's heresy is actually makes them even more impressive and cool.

[Phoebus]

Any modern renegades would be dealt with the same way that any other chapter deals with them.  They would be a separate case from the fallen...unless, as I think someone said, they're in on the secret, in which case they get the same secret treatment as the fallen, but whether or not they are added to the list, I don't know.

 

If you go by 'Pandorax', renegades privy to the secret of the Fallen are most definitely not given the "Fallen treatment", nor are they added to the list.  They are considered altogether separate from - and, indeed, lesser than - the Fallen.

[Vissah]

A true Fallen followed the word of the one men that was right: Luther...!

[EPK]

I summon this thread back to life to tie in the new fluff from 'Pandorax':

 

 

Corpulax, a turncoat Concecrator who sold his soul to Nurgle and considers himself a Fallen is denounced by Azrael, Gabriel, and Asmodai. Azrael reveals to him that only those Dark Angels who were corrupted by Luther are considered Fallen. Only they can hope to be redeemed. Dark Angels and their Successors who turn for selfish reasons do not merit to be counted amongst the Fallen, and thus can't hope for redemption. Corpulax, who was anticipating defying the Dark Angels for years in the Rock, is summarily executed.

 

 

Huzzah, my intuitions were correct. Thank you for the threadomancy Phoebus, it's always nice to have fluff to back up things.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

A true Fallen followed the word of the one men that was right: Luther...!

 

He was wrong though...

[Suriel]

Well about DA's turning traitor. There was a little piece of information about at least one of those in the novel Dead Sky Black Sun. When Ventris met a group of renegades on Medrengard, a DA was among them. He was not given a name by the author or had any significant impact on the story but nevertheless.