Hellbrute Loadout

[minionboy]

 

 

What is the general consensus on the helbrute vs. its closest FW alternatives, the Contemptor and the Decimator?  I'm not familiar with the rules for the Chaos Contemptor.  The decimator does have considerably more firepower and durability, but at fully double the cost depending on build it doesn't come cheap.  A dual butcher Decimator built to emulate a dakkafiend, but in a less valuable force org slot, costs more than a land raider, which may simply be too much to function at all.  If you're looking for some more hull points out of your elite slots, the brute might be the best way to go about it.

 

Generally, i think they're both too expensive.  That said, I love the Decimator model, so I try and make it work.  Giving one the Khorne upgrade with a couple claws is a real pain in the neck to fight in combat.  Other than that, I wouldn't take one with dual ranged weapons either, it's just too good in combat to pass up the opportunity (AV13 ignores Krak grenades).  A Decimator with Butcher Cannon, Siege Claw and the Nurgle upgrade is an expensive, but deadly threat that just wont die.  Just a hint, if you take a Decimator as part of an allied Daemon force, you'll be able to Deepstrike it!

 

For the Contemptor, it is an interesting option that they may exchange a twin-linked bolter in their close combat weapon for a Soul Burner, which is typically a full arm for the Decimator.  Dedication for Nurgle is a decent choice, as it means you'll get blown up less often from penetrating hits, but if you're armed for combat, the Dedication of Tzeentch is surprisingly effective, letting you take two AP3 flamers...  A good all-purpose build though is still just a butcher cannon and fist, like the Decimator.

Where are the rules for chaos contemptors?

 

Imperial Armor Apocalypse Second Edition

[zyl-]

Use a plasma cannon so you can get crazed when you cook yourself.

[MaliGn]

I find it really weird that hellbrutes can't take havoc launchers since that's where they were first introduced in second ed. Personally I'm building one with power fist, power scourge, combo bolted and heavy flamer. It may not work best but it looks hella cool!

[d@n]

the best load out for the hellbute i have found is 2x powerfists with 2 heavy flamers in a dreadclaw.  deap strike it behind a unit and alot of the time you will be able to  cover the whole unit with the flamers, hopefully putting wounds on the character and special weapon model and then charge.

[Spaz431]

 

the standard 105 (bolter included) point brute works fine for me. 

 

 

The FAQ changed it to 100 points. I actually built an AOBR dread to be my hellbrute, due to my ideal fluff for my night lords. I like the idea of the power scourge, but not how the old one looks, so i built my own. But there is a pic of it up on my Flickr and in the GW Flickr pool.

[Cap'm Heckus]

I usually run the Twin-linked lascannon and powerfist.  I used to take the heavy flamer but almost never got to fire it.  The lascannon set up has done me well for popping tanks or termis.  I really want to add a missile launcher to him because he rarely gets into melee.  Turn one he almost always pops a transport or heavy tank from across the table.  Admittedly, I run a lascannon heavy army (4-7 LC shots per turn between havocs, preds, brute, and sometimes 1 in a CSM squad) but it keeps the enemy on their side of the table.

 

My other dreadhellbrutenaught is twin Powerfists and heavy flamers (one or both depending on points budget).  He keeps the backfield clean.

[derpasaurus]

 

 

the standard 105 (bolter included) point brute works fine for me. 

 

The FAQ changed it to 100 points. I actually built an AOBR dread to be my hellbrute, due to my ideal fluff for my night lords. I like the idea of the power scourge, but not how the old one looks, so i built my own. But there is a pic of it up on my Flickr and in the GW Flickr pool.

yes i know, but the combi-bolter is a 5 point option, so the total is 105 for my current loadout. 

i need to upload pics of my armies to somewhere besides facebook... lol

[minionboy]

One more thing I thought I should point out about the Chaos Contemptor over it's Loyalist counterpart.  It has an extra Hull Point, for no apparent reason other than to give glory to the chaos gods!

 

Check it out for yourself:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf

 

(scroll to the bottom)

[Chaeron]

Praise be!

[The Yncarne]

ack redundant post.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Hmm, suddenly a Contemptor does not seem that bad an idea... not great, but if you tanks in your hs a good way to increas the armour saturation, especially if I decide to rund, dread, contemptor, terminators with a land raider.

Must admit I have tried out the lascannon, but it never seems to d that well for it;s points, and the plasma cannon is just so good at clearing out enemy infantry, can see an argument for the lascannon as it can damage fliers.

[Excessus]

I'm still curious of what the "6" next to nearly all the chaos vehicles stands for in that pdf...

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

well the way my dread (helbrute, i keep forgetting) is built currently the range isn't so much an issue because i just melta things and then charge them, so i'm fairly close most of the time anyway. it depends on how you want it built. if you want long range fire support then clearly the 2ft of multi-melta with super effectiveness within 1ft is not going to do the job. it IS however, a cheap and effective terminator/track buster.

 

i've faced enough different dreadnought builds to know that they can work about any way you build them. if i could change one thing about mine it would probably be to replace the bolter with a flamer, since mine tends to assault/get assaulted. i think what i'll do tho is more likely pick up some spare arms and magnetize the lot of them so i can switch out as i please.

on the other hand, i've had a hard time getting to a las/missile launcher dread's punchy bits just because it can shoot 4 feet at pretty high strength. but i just really like the power fist. str 10 ap2 at initiative in melee gives me an edge against, well, everything. it's either killing other powerfists first, or more than likely only being glanced on 6s with krak grenades. it works for me, but like i said before, so many local metas are so drastically different, and that's not even accounting for personal taste and what role you want it to fill in your army. and even then, there's people on here that will tell you anything less than av13 is stupid. for some reason.

 

the standard 105 (bolter included) point brute works fine for me. 

 

edit: grammar fail

 

Where does it say it's str10 at initiative? I had my first game with it yesterday, and when I looked it said (Sx2, unwieldy) for the powerfist it's equipped with. so that'd make it str12 striking at I1??

[Agent Purple]

 

well the way my dread (helbrute, i keep forgetting) is built currently the range isn't so much an issue because i just melta things and then charge them, so i'm fairly close most of the time anyway. it depends on how you want it built. if you want long range fire support then clearly the 2ft of multi-melta with super effectiveness within 1ft is not going to do the job. it IS however, a cheap and effective terminator/track buster.

 

i've faced enough different dreadnought builds to know that they can work about any way you build them. if i could change one thing about mine it would probably be to replace the bolter with a flamer, since mine tends to assault/get assaulted. i think what i'll do tho is more likely pick up some spare arms and magnetize the lot of them so i can switch out as i please.

on the other hand, i've had a hard time getting to a las/missile launcher dread's punchy bits just because it can shoot 4 feet at pretty high strength. but i just really like the power fist. str 10 ap2 at initiative in melee gives me an edge against, well, everything. it's either killing other powerfists first, or more than likely only being glanced on 6s with krak grenades. it works for me, but like i said before, so many local metas are so drastically different, and that's not even accounting for personal taste and what role you want it to fill in your army. and even then, there's people on here that will tell you anything less than av13 is stupid. for some reason.

 

the standard 105 (bolter included) point brute works fine for me. 

 

edit: grammar fail

 

Where does it say it's str10 at initiative? I had my first game with it yesterday, and when I looked it said (Sx2, unwieldy) for the powerfist it's equipped with. so that'd make it str12 striking at I1??

 

unwieldy I1 modifier dosen't apply to walkers or monstrous creatures.  (p.43 of hard cover rulebook, under unwieldy in special rules section)

 

Strength can't be increased above 10. (p.2 of hard cover rulebook, under modifiers in the models & unit section)

 

Ergo, hellbrute with fisto = s10 at I.

 

Gotta read all the rules not just the quick reference ones.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Cheers, I suck at rule readingi guess.

 

I've now chopped off the melta end and stuck on a plasma cannon, as I found the range lackin for tank busting. This way I've still got a chance of popping tanks at range and the Pc has a wide range of targets. Will keep the power fist as it rips up tanks in cc.

 

Am also considering 2 more brutes, one with dual ccw, not decided if 2 fists or fist and scourge, the other with missiles, not decided on other gun yet.

 

That way I can swap which load out to choose, but I think may run two in a game.

 

Thoughts?

[the jeske]

how do you plan to get the 2xccw dread in to melee range.

[chillin]

Plaz cannon no good for tank busting because it drifts, also because it only str 7, PC pretty good vs killing meq's tho. Big problem w PC on vehicles in theis ed. is that on a 1 you can take a glancing hit. AC's used to be "ok" on dreads (as far as anything was ok on a dread), but that was mainly for cracking rino's and w the new ed. rules, rinos are out of favor in alot of armies.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Well Jeske I could always deepstrike him with a dreadclaw?

[zyl-]

how do you plan to get the 2xccw dread in to melee range.

Run it up the field with rhinos. Everyone knows the contents of the rhinos are far more dangerous.. and they are easier to glance out anyhow.

 

How would YOU do it? Irrelivant. You take neither brutes nor rhinos.

[Vorenus]

I am a little surprised by how negative everyone is about Helbrutes.  I routinely take 2-3 Dreadnoughts in my Space Marines (and I never take Drop Pods, by the way, as I don't own any) and Grey Knights armies, and they do a great job for me.  Why does everyone think Helbrutes are so terrible?  Is it really just that they are not AV 13?  There really aren't that many walkers out there that are AV 13, and the few that there are cost considerably more points, so this doesn't seem like a very strong argument against Helbrutes to me.  Other than their "weak" Armour Value of 12, is there something else that makes everyone hate on the Helbrute so much?

 

v/r

 

--Vorenus

[the jeske]

I routinely take 2-3 Dreadnoughts in my Space Marines (and I never take

Drop Pods, by the way, as I don't own any) and Grey Knights armies, and

they do a great job for me

not getting crazy , possible av 13 , veteran upgrades, rifleman set up , rifleman set up that is str8 and ignored most of the rules of 5th ed . there are small difference.

 

 

 

 

 

Run it up the field with rhinos. Everyone knows the contents of the

rhinos are far more dangerous.. and they are easier to glance out

anyhow.

How would YOU do it? Irrelivant. You take neither brutes nor rhinos.

I want to understand the tactic ,the dreads are bad and if someone wants a melee one for few points the mauler gives an inv , no crazy and a 12"charge range . both are horrible in melee[low attacks , no way to be av13] . The rhino example doesnt explain anything , because dreads wont be able to keep with them [or the rhino will have to slow down , but then it makes no sense to take them , because 3 rhinos is as much as an extra dreads and you can walk with the same speed as a dread].

 

 

 

Other than their "weak" Armour Value of 12, is there something else that makes everyone hate on the Helbrute so much?

like in all editions or just this ? let me lists a few , weapon load outs , crazy , lack of utility [nor rifle man, no veteran, no av13] , if someone want to take a plasma gun in elite section he can takr 5 nm with a blast master and it will be more durable , horrible in melee [loyalist on the other have one dread which is ok for melee and one which isnt very bad. that is not counting lucius pods].

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Not having a a Rifleman build hurts, yes, but no Veteran skills or Venerable status and no AV13 don't count as "utility."  Utility is a measure of how useful it is to the army -- whether it can fill a niche -- and the last two of your three examples don't apply.

 

For me, the problem of the Chaos Dreadnought is one of utility (ie, options it can take compared to what options are effective).  For example, it cannot take a Rifleman (2x TL autocannons) build, which in 5th Edition loyalist armies was a prime candidate for Rhino-popping.  In 6th Edition, with fewer light-AV vehicles running around, the Rifleman isn't necessarily required anymore (except for Grey Knights, where they get S8 due to psy-bolts).  However, unlike Loyalists, we don't need a Rifleman Dread because we can get the same amount (and then some) of firepower on a Havoc Squad.

 

So what else can we do with it?  Double-CCW has its advantages over the Maulerfiend, which in turn has its own advantages: WS4 vs WS3, I4 vs I3, no save vs 5++, etc, so that's kind of a wash depending on playstyle, points available, theme, etc.

 

How about some anti-infantry firepower instead?  Plasma cannons can no deliver glancing hits to the firing vehicle on Gets Hot, which is dumb and precludes any vehicle from ever taking a non-twin-linked plasma weapon in my opinion.  And besides, Obliterators can spam plasma cannons and every one and their problem is taking double-plasma in their MEQ squads and combi-plasma in their Termies, so that's plenty of ranged AP2 already built in the average list.  Lascannons would make it a decent anti-vehicle platform. . . but we have Obliterators providing lascannons that are more durable and more shots.  You can pair a lascannon or reaper AC with a missile launcher, but without a CCW, if your Dread goes punchy on the Crazy table, then you're kind of hosed since he needs the AP2 from the CCW to ensure that he's killing models (due to low attack values).

 

So you see, a Chaos Dread has no utility for your average Chaos Marine army because everything they do is already being done better by the rest of the army.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

True a maulerfiend is arguably better in CC, but takes up a HS slot (which for me there is more competition than elites, as I have no interest in fielding anything other than termies and chosen).

 

If you were to take a brute with ML and another ranged weapon, would you not be sitting him in the backfield, so if he got crazed and tried to get to CC he wouldn't reach anything?

 

On the subject of not needing a plasma cannon because termies have combi plas, aren't they only one shot plas? I'd much rather be able to shoot hot balls of glowing plasma all game rather than one turn.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

True a maulerfiend is arguably better in CC, but takes up a HS slot (which for me there is more competition than elites, as I have no interest in fielding anything other than termies and chosen).

 

If you were to take a brute with ML and another ranged weapon, would you not be sitting him in the backfield, so if he got crazed and tried to get to CC he wouldn't reach anything?

 

On the subject of not needing a plasma cannon because termies have combi plas, aren't they only one shot plas? I'd much rather be able to shoot hot balls of glowing plasma all game rather than one turn.

 

1. Which again, as I pointed out, brings the choice down to the minutiae of the army list.

 

2. The enemy is going to get into your backfield.  Storm Raven-borne squads, deep strikers, infiltrators, outflankers. . . it's entirely possible, depending on the army you're facing, that someone is going to get an assault unit into your backfield.

 

3. Combis are only one shot, yes.  But they're backed up by double-plas in CSM or PM squads, Ecto-fiends, Baledrakes, maybe a Burning Brand. . . LOTS of AP2 and AP3 firepower is available throughout the army.  I'd argue that if you really want to be throwing plasma templates, you should be taking an Ectofiend.  Two or three templates instead of just one, the same armor and HP, but you get a save against the Gets Hots glancing hits.  Plus, an extra point of strength for IDing Paladins and other MEQ characters.

[the jeske]

 

Not having a a Rifleman build hurts, yes, but no Veteran skills or

Venerable status and no AV13 don't count as "utility."  Utility is a

measure of how useful it is to the army -- whether it can fill a niche

-- and the last two of your three examples don't apply.

I am sorry but how does av 13 coming out of a drop pod with twin linked melta compared to walking with melta accross the board does not compare . And forcing the re-roll of the damage table is a utility thing , it makes the dread more resilient ergo fewer [or in the case of loyalists non] support units are needed to make the dread stand and do its thing .

 

 

 

 

So what else can we do with it?  Double-CCW has its advantages over the

Maulerfiend, which in turn has its own advantages: WS4 vs WS3, I4 vs I3,

no save vs 5++, etc, so that's kind of a wash depending on playstyle,

points available, theme, etc.

I sorry but how is the melee dread better then the mauler , when the mauler has a 12" charge range always while the dread has a random charge range ? the number of attacks both have sucks , so there is no actual winer here . resilient wise the mauler is better because of the inv . the mauler being better has nothing to do with style and everything with assault mechanics in 6th ed.

 

 

 

 

On the subject of not needing a plasma cannon because termies have combi

plas, aren't they only one shot plas? I'd much rather be able to shoot

hot balls of glowing plasma all game rather than one turn.

well first of all if someone would actualy take a plasma dread and compared them to plasma terminators the plasma termintors do more damge just because their weapons are direct fire and plasma cannon even if they roll a hit can kill how much ? 2 dudes max.that is as much as 2 combi plas termintors kill . A better comperation are 5 NM and a blast master .