BA Dreadnoughts in 6th Edition

[appiah4]

I believe a reconsideration of our walker choices is in oreder now that we have a new edition.

 

I ran into this trouble while trying to figure out how to magnetize and kit out my own Dreadnoughts, and how to field them, if at all, yesterday.

 

With the changes to combat for walkers, new deepstrike and skyfire rules, etc. what do you think of our Dreadnought choices?

 

Which Furioso and regular Dreadnoughts would you field, and why? How would you deploy them? Have your uses for Dreadnoughts changed in 6th Ed.? What have you done with them to adapt? What still works, and what now fails more often?

[John Rainbow]

AV12 has become a big problem for dreads as any Tom, Dick or Harry with a Krak grenade will potentially ruin your day. You can no longer reliably go up against Space Marines in CC with these beasts. Str.7 (plasma, autocannons) becomes more a problem too.

 

Armour 13 dreads are still pretty deece though as 13 seems to be the break point in armour values and it at least saves you from Krak grenades and makes the dread reasonably resilient. All that plasma you see struggles to hurt it too. On the flip side though, your enemies might just run away as they can't feasably hurt you.

 

Whilst some things have changed, I think dreads can be used in a similar manner to before - you just have to remember the changes that the new rules and meta have wrought.

[appiah4]

Agreed, AV12 is too fragile for a melee walker in 6th.

 

However, options for AV13 are what confuse me the most.

 

You have Blood Talons, which are S6 rerolling, but AP3. Yo have Blood Fists, Which are S10 AP2, but only A3+1.

 

Then you have the Frag Cannon, but what do you pair that with? Meltagun or Heavy Flamer?

 

3 Templates sound nice, but is it overkill against most infantry? Is a single Meltagun a good soft AV counter?

 

One last food for thought, does Frag Cannon + Heavy Flamer mean you fire 3 templates on overwatch?

[Jolemai]

Walkers can't use the Overwatch rule.

[TheCrimsonLancer]

Walkers can't use the Overwatch rule.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this has been FAQed?

[Ushtarador]

Walkes can indeed use overwatch. The problem is that they usually get shot at if they have 3 template weapons I would always attach the heavy flamer if you use the frag cannon, it really helps.

The frag cannon alone is not powerful enough to cause massive overkill, so it's always nice to have those additional wounds. Also against 4+ armor or worse, the flamer gives you guaranteed kills. Then use a drop pod and cause havoc in the backfield. It is a pure suicide unit though, don't expect it to live in turn 2.

If you don't use the template version, I would always put them in a stormraven.

The DC dread is still ok because frags can only glance it, so you usually don't get killed and wipe the attacked squad anyway. I also sometimes run him with fists now and use his 6 attacks on the charge to decimate 2+ armor stuff.

Furiosos and their AV13 are still a wrecking ball and very good against power armour. I feel they don't have enough attacks to stick blood fists on them, so in my army they just counter medium-sized squads without powerfists or similar.

But in general it is always a good idea to have a cc dread flying around in a raven, they can deal with sooo many things easily and will heavily disrupt your enemies strategy - because if he plays it wrong, he almost certainly will lose at least one squad.

[company veteran]

i run a furioso with talons on a stormraven.. if your raven turns up on turn 2 you can practically guarantee him charging something on turn 3 without anything getting to shoot him.. obviously things can go wrong but i find it to work well 9 times out of 10.

 

also the talons usually mince most infantry units.

[Father Mapple]

I think if you're talking special models with 2+ saves like Paladins, Furioso with fists is the way to go. A S8 thunderhammer or fist needs 5s to glance and 6s to penetrate. Going at initiative with fists means the Furioso with the charge should stay in combat and survive against tactical terminators, paladins, any 5+ invul save model, especially if that means less hits coming back. It won't work against a whole squad of storm shields, though. MATH:

 

Furioso on the charge, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, 5+ invul save = 1.44 wounds, and NO invul save = 1.9 wounds.

These are instant killing anything without T6 or eternal warrior. If it's a 2 wound model, you're talking multiple wounds done for combat resolution.

If an IC, with a 4+ invul save, you're still getting 1.1 unsaved wounds and they need eternal warrior to survive.

 

5 Tactical terminators charged, hitting on 4s, glancing AV13 on 5s = 1.65 HP lost by Furioso.

5 Tactical Terminators charged, hitting on 4s, glancing AV12 on 4s = 2.5 HP lost by Death Company Dread.

Assuming the terminators lost someone, the math changed by dropping 2 attacks: so reduce those numbers by 1/5. 1.32HP lost by Furioso, and 2HP lost by Death Company Dread. Next round of combat, it's .9HP lost by Furioso, and 1.5HP lost by Death Co Dread, wrecking the Death Co Dread on 2nd assault phase.

 

But change the target, and you get something amazingly different.

 

10 MEQs with grenades charged, hitting on 4s, glancing AV12 on 6s = .8 HP lost by Death Company Dread.

If I add a powerfist to the SGT, then .5 HP lost, hitting on 4s, glancing on 4s, adds .5HP, so 1.3HP per assault phase.

Obviously, MEQs with Krak grenades and 1 powerfist means Furiosos survive much longer when they're losing .33 HP a turn.

So Death Company versus MEQ will win in a comparison because of it's extra attack, regarldess of talons or fists, when compared to a similar Furioso.

 

So in summary, I think Dreadnoughts with fists or claws in melee have a place to play, but it's not in the insta-gibbing everyone. But despite the changes in walker combat, S6 grenades aren't the death of Dreadnoughts. Meltabombs are much worse than fists for either AV12 or AV13 Dreads.

[TheSauce]

I agree with the Stormraven approach. AV 12 on the DC dread is a problem only if they're shooting it. If it dies to krak grenades in CC it has pretty much done its job and I'm happy.

[company veteran]

you have to remember that if a models uses grenades it only gets ONE attack.. then needs a 6 to glance av 12 so its not so bad.. of course the furioso laughs at this and then punches more things in the face.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I've actually used both the DC-Dread and the Furioso with a Stormraven quite extensively in 5th edition, and back then, they were absolutely slaughtering everything. The Stormraven was fragile as paper, but once it had delivered its cargo, it was left to die anyway. Nothing could deal with for example Sanguinary Guard, Priest and a Furioso with Blood Fists at that time. Or a Raven full of DC with a DC dread in the back made hordes of any kind simply vanish from the tabletop.

 

Now, these times are gone, the Stormraven is no longer a good choice for delivering stuff, sadly. Once it's in hover mode, it gets shot down very, very easily, without having done the damage it could do. The new disembarking rules do not favour the stormraven as a transport, so for Dreadnoughts, I'd go with Drop Pods.

 

There's always 40k-themed terrain available where I usually play, so the Dreadnought is fairly easy to hide disembarked from the Pod. In CC, some measly grenades that still need to hit me on 4s and glace on 6s or not at all are not really fearsome, and by the time the so-feared Powerfist strikes, it could already be dead with the new rules. Look out sir! is only on a 4+ on the Sarge....

 

Talon Dreads are not really worth it anymore, especially not the DC one. When you're actually fielding DC, you've got 5 the times of attacks(at least) for mincing hordes, and for the cost of a DC Dread, you can add a Reclusiarch or Chaplain. There's simply no value in it when we got so many other units that can take on hordes so much better.

What we lack in CC are high-strength, low AP and high initiative attacks. All hammers, fists and axes strike at initiative 1. Throw a Furioso with Fists at Terminators, Paladins, Meganobz and all the other nasty stuff and watch them die. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, and you can cast Prescience on the Dread if that's one for you.

 

One could argue that we could take on the TEQ in the shooting phase with our Vindicators, but these fists don't scatter, they'll hit their target. And it's gonna hurt. Furioso with Fists is the new DC Dread with Talons.

 

 

 

Snorri

[company veteran]

the majority of the armies i play have majority 3+/4+ saves so i prefer the talons... they are more useful in general over the few units i face with 2+

[JamesI]

I haven't used one in 6th, but hypothetically the frag cannon furioso is my favorite for this edition.

[Xenith]

Walkers can't use the Overwatch rule.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this has been FAQed?

 

Not even FAQ'd, it's in the rulebook that walkers are allowed to overwatch. Says so. Jolemai, check the walker section thoroughly.

[knife&fork]

Furioso with Fists is the new DC Dread with Talons.

 

I disagree. They don't put out enough attacks and they aren't characters so you won't get any precision strikes to single out fists, melta bombs, hammers or chain fists. Forcing a lot of saves with the frag cannon will be superior to an extra attack in just about every scenario.

 

The math was done earlier in the thread and it gets even worse vs something with a decent invul.

 

DC dreads still do a very good job chewing 3+ (or worse) models but they are more of a niche unit now.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Furioso with Fists is the new DC Dread with Talons.

 

I disagree. They don't put out enough attacks and they aren't characters so you won't get any precision strikes to single out fists, melta bombs, hammers or chain fists. Forcing a lot of saves with the frag cannon will be superior to an extra attack in just about every scenario.

 

The math was done earlier in the thread and it gets even worse vs something with a decent invul.

 

DC dreads still do a very good job chewing 3+ (or worse) models but they are more of a niche unit now.

 

I see what you mean, but even a Furioso with Frag cannon is probably going to have a Fist in the other hand, so there's still the AP2 in close combat.

Currently, we don't have any other weapon that's striking at intiative 4 and AP2, that's why I believe that the comparison was appropriate.

 

In 5th, Talons were really cruel and effective against everything, even hammernators when the occasional wound got through. Now, they can't even ignore the 2+ armour save, where the Blood Fist can.

 

Furiosos are now all-rounders against the small, tough and expensive stuff that you wouldn't dare to assault without overwhelming numbers - Terminators, Meganobz and Thunderwolves with a Lord. With a Furioso, even an Assault Squad can tackle these units and do some severe damage. Whether you fire the Frag Cannon and Heavy Flamer before the charge or not is up to each one individually. I think it's a good way to get some possibly rending wounds in there before continuing with the AP2 fisting. Oh, and it can eat overwatch fire quite well. ;)

 

 

 

Snorri

[Father Mapple]

Oh, and it can eat overwatch fire quite well.

This is the main thing for me when using the Furioso against 2+ saves. There's other things than Terminators all equipped with 3+ invuls and S8 attacks, like other Sang Guard, lots of ICs whether Imperial/Necron/D Eldar shadowfields/ or support units like Broadsides/Techmarines/MegaNobs/etc. Only Assault Cannons, Rail Guns, and possible melta pistol upgrades really threaten an AV13 on overwatch. Then, once in combat, even if the Furioso only has 2 attacks, I can charge in 10 Tacticals, or 5 scouts, or just ANYTHING to generate enough attacks to get a wound through 2+ armor and swing combat my way.

For fighting Terminators with Combat Tactics or ATSKNF especially: so what if they run away, are they going to stormbolter/flamer the Dread to death? No, they need rending on Assault Cannons or a good roll on the Cyclone Missle Launcher. Assault Terminators can charge in for their extra attacks, but have to eat another overwatch (if there's templates) and then through the Furioso's initiative attacks. It's not a good situation for the Terminators because their effectiveness will be degraded after losing a combat.

[company veteran]

the whole ap thing seems to be giant... do people really really play against armies with majority 2+ saves?

 

my gaming group consists of about 10-12 players and i run a talons furioso and it does great against pretty much everyone.. i just try to avoid termies and mega armour.

[Ushtarador]

I agree with company veteran. Armies almost always don't consist of 100% TDA, so there are always some juicy units to kill with a DC talon dread. And even if you only wipe a single tactical squad, you already killed almost twice the points you spent on the dread. If you think about it, 125 points is very little for what you can achieve with him.

[SamaNagol]

Naked DC dread in a pod is a decent suicide unit. As long as you put it behind cover somehow in the first turn. Changes to Fleet have kind of hindered it though in this respect.

 

Furioso with Frag Cannon, Meltagun and Magna Grapple is a half decent versatile Alpha strike unit, but it suffers badly to units who can get round the rear with plasma or even melta and kill it.

 

Furioso with Talons is a bit more survivable than the DC dread, but has less of a reliable threat range with the lack of Fleet. When it gets in it will mince most things up and can take more damage back.

 

DC Dread with Talons in a 'raven.... with a Librarian within Prescience range is worth about 500pts if it makes it in to combat. If you can find the points for this, AND Mephiston in an army... ell oh ell.

[company veteran]

on a stormraven you have a ridiculous threat range AND can assault the turn you disembark.

[Brother Maikel]

the whole ap thing seems to be giant... do people really really play against armies with majority 2+ saves?

 

my gaming group consists of about 10-12 players and i run a talons furioso and it does great against pretty much everyone.. i just try to avoid termies and mega armour.

 

The problem is that it only takes one model having a 2+ to allow the entire unit to benefit, particularly if that model is an IC with multiple wounds. If your opponent can get it into base contact, then that model can take every wound until its down to a single wound left, then pawn those off on nearby subordinates with LoS! or take them as necessary. So a single Wolf Guard in TDA, Necron Lord, or Techmarine can effectively give an entire unit a 2+ while it lives.

[banis]

There is a huge amount of 2+ armor save where i play.. I don't remeber the last time i saw a game without it. '

Hell last night my friend brought 15 thunderhammer termies along with belial in his multiwing.

 

The problem i have with the talons is that i don't like a dedicated cc unit that i can't use against other dedicated cc units.

Same problem that i have with the sang guard:/

 

Also if the talon dreadnought lose just one arm it is pretty much a walking joke where the one with fists is still str 10 and a threat.

[terminatorAM]

Why has no one mentioned the Furioso Librarian yet? Yes, it's more points, but since it doesn't really need a transport the cost should differences are a small factor. It has all the advantages of a furioso with fists and it can fly and give cover to tanks and troops around it. This makes it a force multiplier that can keep up with jump troops and tanks so it can take the overwatch shots for assault squads and then dish out damage against terminators and tougher enemies.

 

In 6th the perils tests aren't even that scary because fails just loss a hull point not the potential to die on the damage table.

[SamaNagol]

For 125pts, they are both incredibly good value.

 

Talon dread of either variety going into a blob squad or a unit of troops is going to turn it into a pink mist. Sure, there are things with 2+ saves.... but if you don't have enough AP2 or AP1 shots in your list anyway that's your fault.

 

It all comes down to list synergy. Do you have enough targets to allow your Death Co or Furioso dread to get into combat? Even the Furioso with AV13 is susceptible to rear shots.

 

Is 125pts (plus drop pod or whatever delivery method you use) worth it if it causes something else to survive?

 

Frag Cannon and Heavy Flamer Furiosos are good value at 135. Or you can go for the Frag Cannon, Magna Grapple and Meltagun version for lots of high strength hits instead.

 

Personally I would stay away from the Librarian ones as they are quite expensive for what they do, and they had better synergy with AV13 spam lists which I don't go for anymore.

 

I don't think there is a clear winner.