Valkyrion Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Okay, so I'm still struggling a little bit with the actual application of knowledge within the chapter... Firstly, what happens to a Green that gets a bit close, or questions an order, such as 'wait, we're just leaving this entire planet to the tyranids all of a sudden?' or 'why are we opening fire on the Black Templars?' or 'is it really wise to kill this inquisitor?' Surely such a thing would lead to distrust, certainly if Captain Deathwing is the only member of the inner circle present amongst his company of marines. Secondly, I don't get the actual degrees of knowledge that are required. I understand that only Person X knows that luther is alive and kicking, but from the bottom up as the secrets are revealed there seems to be too many steps before the truth is learned, when the truth is really simple - some Dark Angels 10000 years ago 'fell'. All of the marines within the chapter will have fought against Chaos Marines, so they already understand that space marines can fall, and whilst it might gall I'm sure they appreciate that even Dark Angels have fallen. I understand the scale of Luther's actions might come as a bit of a shock, but surely you either know, or you don't. I suppose what I'm asking is; what do the Deathwing Knights know that the Deathwing don't, and what do the Deathwing know that the Black Knights don't, and what do the Black Knights know that the Ravenwing don't and so on. I'm not sure how you can limit that information except for the minutiae of it all. If that makes sense... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269740-more-inner-circle-questions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Simple answer? Read Ravenwing by Gav Thorpe.......its really the whole point of the book as the main characters get exposed to more "secret" information, they progress through the ranks. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269740-more-inner-circle-questions/#findComment-3285538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 I honestly wouldn't say that 'Ravenwing' portrays the truth as breaking down into as many steps as Valkyrion mentioned. To the OP, I share your frustration. What might help is to think the various stages as waypoints of trust. You're not necessarily learning something new, per se, but you have to get checked off X number of times before you get an invite to the Deathwing, for instance. Does that make sense? Otherwise, I agree. There are probably only so many layers of truth to share. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269740-more-inner-circle-questions/#findComment-3285662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djulius Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Ah... but to understand the levels and what gets revealed at each level means you need to be at a high enough level yourself. Basically an important aspect of the whole secrecy plot is that we, outside their world, don't know everything... some we can only guess or surmise. Yes, we know some of the truths (including top level fact that Luther is plugged in); but we know things even top level of the DA don't know (the existence of Lion's body on the Rock... but we don't know the Emperor's plan). What is tantalising is a hinted at hidden agenda that maybe a few at the top know that creates the sinister aspect emphasised in the latest codex. In such structures it is not only truths that are shared so, given their obsessive control structures, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some deliberate mis-truths planted at validation levels to 1) test reactions and 2) see if that traceable mis-truth leaks allowing them to test trustworthiness. At a higher level the mis-truth is corrected. This way anyone who may defect would probably reveal a mixture of truth and false truth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269740-more-inner-circle-questions/#findComment-3285696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Ok, more long winded answer The 'truth' is that there are renegade Space Marines The 'truth' is that Horus betrayed the Emperor and killed the Lion The 'truth' is that Legion turned up Legion The 'truth' is that Caliban was destroyed by Horus' forces The 'truth' is that there is this thing called Chaos The 'truth' is that some of the traitor Legions are in league with Chaos The 'truth' is that some of the Dark Angels turned on the Lion and were banished The 'truth' is that they weren't banished, we had to fight them The 'truth' is that Horus didn't kill the Lion, Luther did The 'truth' is that we destroyed our own home planet The 'truth' is that the Lion didn't die....... The real truth is that the Dark Angels keep all of the above from their recruits, until they are ready to start being inducted into the Ravenwing and Deathwing. All of the above are either mentioned or hinted at in Ravenwing. In fact, our main character, Annael, tells us that he was inducted into the Ravenwing because he asked his Sergeant one day...."So, how did the Lion die?" It pays to remember that from the earliest days of the Dark Angels, the Legion was using the Librarians to remove memories from Astartes and others, and actively supresses the release of information and inquisitiveness within the ranks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269740-more-inner-circle-questions/#findComment-3285697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azoriel Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 As an aside, many of the more callous space marine chapters such as the Marines Malevolent and the Iron Hands kill any number of fellow imperials in the course of a battle and don't even bat an eye, whereas members of the inquisition may virus bomb whole populations on the mere suspicion of corruption. In contrast, making the occassional inquisitor "disappear" is pretty innocuous. It's already been established that the Dark Angels (and their successors) are all commanded by genius generals - when you can assume the guy in charge knows what's best, are you going to ask many questions when he tells you to do what many other imperial organizations are already doing? In the grim-dark of 40K's Imperium? (Doubly so in the case of the Ravenwing, who'd be piloting our spacecraft, have been indoctrinated to not listen to any "lies" a foeman may tell them, and would invariably carry out the order to fire upon "enemy" ships in space.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269740-more-inner-circle-questions/#findComment-3285792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Wow! It is that simple to be promoted to the RW? What happens if you ask what happened to the garison when Caliban blew? Innercircle promotion? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269740-more-inner-circle-questions/#findComment-3286235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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