Which Heavy Weapon in DW?

[captain sox]

Hello folks!

 

Fun times for us who love to build models. I'm happier than a cat in a catnip garden.

 

I'll probably build my Terminators with Plasma Cannons because they look so cool. Tacticaly though, what are your thoughts on the PC on TDA? I don't play much, so the rule of cool always trumps, but I know there are a lot of people out there (especially those new to our Chapter) who want to know the pros and cons of the heavy weapons Terminators can take.

 

In all honesty, aside from looking cool, I think the PC aren't that effective of a weapon for terminators. I'd still go with the CML or AC over it. HF, I think are still useful, but would be my last choice.

 

so, in order I would go:

 

CML, then AC, then PC, then HF

 

but I'm always open to opinons and discussions about this.

[elphilo]

Well I played a game last night against a guard blob squad allied with Space Wolves. And let me tell you, the plasma cannon got a gold star for its performance. It blew up multiple Chimeras and most of the Grey Hunters my opponent took. Split Fire makes it worth it IMO. But I'm sure if my opponent took heavier armor it would of been worthless. So my gut reaction is if you want an all around weapon to take advantage of split fire, I say go CML and Assault Cannon. That way the Assault Cannon can help lay down fire with the storm bolters on infantry while the CML can split fire and go after some armor.

[Xeraxen]

I've been wondering the same, though I'll give a PC to my DW Command squad since the Apothecary can help prevent sudden occurances of 'face-melting'. XD

 

HF would be preferrable in CCW oriented DW squads, though the CML is tasty since it allows for more long-range support/ooph and allows the LC/TH&SS squads to do some damage at long range instead of hiking across the board each turn until they meet with a target to smack around.

[FragEmAll]

personally i think that the place for plasma cannons is in the tactical and devastator squads, though I freely admit the model is amazing.

 

I like the assault cannon for the synergy with the stormbolters, with the Cyclone a very close second now we can split fire.

[Isiah]

Assault cannons for me. I intend to use a mix of 50/50 with cyclones when using even-numbered DW squads, more acs when odd-numbered. The cyclone's cost relative to the ac has swung my preference back to the 4-shot weapon.

 

Plasma cannons are an odd mix for termies -- I prefer mine on dreadnoughts. That's not to say though they don't look awesome on them :).

 

Cheers

I

[AngelVeto]

Just had a thought for some tactics... Deep strike belial with a ten man termy squad and 2 HF right in the juicy spot to TROGDOOOOOOR with twin linked flame templates and loads of storm bolters , then have him run off to join with deathwing knights to traipse around the board murderizing all other foes... Thoughts?

[IndigoJack]

Depends on the list really. In really DW heavy lists (4 or more) I'd go with cml, since I'm probably sucking points from other ranged tank killing units (rifle dreads, devs, preds), to field them. In more of a mixed list, I'd go cml or ac to taste. My biggest problem with the pc is the random nature of scatter. Sure vengeful strike helps that, and its definitely a useful weapon, I just prefer to remove as much random from my lists as possible.

[FragEmAll]

Just had a thought for some tactics... Deep strike belial with a ten man termy squad and 2 HF right in the juicy spot to TROGDOOOOOOR with twin linked flame templates and loads of storm bolters , then have him run off to join with deathwing knights to traipse around the board murderizing all other foes... Thoughts?

 

Damn good idea. I used to run dual heavy flamer sternguard in drop pods on my Vulkan list, twin heavy flamers hurt. No scatter is even better :)

[Artemid]

Gonna roll with all AC I think on Sunday to give it a shot, or an AC/CML or AC/PC mix. Will report back!

[RedMoon]

so far my plasma cannons have been ACE! gonna make another squad and magnetize the arms for some difference but one squad will always run plasma cannon for me lol

[elphilo]

Depends on the list really. In really DW heavy lists (4 or more) I'd go with cml, since I'm probably sucking points from other ranged tank killing units (rifle dreads, devs, preds), to field them. In more of a mixed list, I'd go cml or ac to taste. My biggest problem with the pc is the random nature of scatter. Sure vengeful strike helps that, and its definitely a useful weapon, I just prefer to remove as much random from my lists as possible.

 

You know what helps those PCs a ton I found out? Our Buff Bot Librarian that is dirt cheap :D

 

Played with one yesterday in a 10 man shooty terminator unit and holy bejeebus, it was just wrong.

[Redbaron997]

Previously I have been all for the CML for two reasons. 1. I get to keep my stormbolter or full cc loadout. or full CC loadout. 2. For anti-armour and anti-horde which DW both struggle with.

 

I just don't see the results for the AC. I have never tried the PC yet.

 

Normally I would never think of using HF for all DW due to the need for long range but with belials no scatter a twin linked heavy flamed could be really great.

[Apahllo]

Magnets > no magnets. Going to do it all my self, but I think having a 2 pc, 8 storm bolters and a lv1 Libby for rerole hits ( goes for cc too) will be the focal point of my termies. Gonna save belial for the knights.

[Rizara]

I am a sucker for assault cannons. I can honestly say they are by far my favorite weapon in the game. They don't kill my own marines, they tend to devestate troops and tanks alike, and the twinlinked variants are even better. That being said, I plan to use an assault cannon and a plasma cannon for my two squads. However if I was going for an all death wing army, I would definitely be taking the CML in on a few squads, as they would be lacking dedicated anti armor. However, If i was to mix it up, I would probably say I would have 1 plasma cannon out of every 5 heavy weapons, with the other 4 being a 50/50 mix of assault cannons and CMLs. I agree the Plasma Cannon is also best in a command squad because of the apothecaries feel no pain, but it could also be useful in a squad with a librarian with divination. It also has the coolness factor of looking great and dark angels being the only terminators to get it.

[puck]

I'm going to try the TH/SS x4 with 1 HF and a deepstriking belieal on the side combo this weekend. it seems like anything I drop that on is just gone. We'll see though.

[Ronin_eX]

It's all about roles and what a squad is going to be used for. I like the assault cannon because it is a confluence of different roles. It can mow down anything up to heavy infantry (4+ saves), can still hurt MEQ and even TEQ effectively due to rending, and is even decent in anti-tank (especially against AV14). Of course it is the second most expensive heavy weapon, beaten only by the CML because the CML lets you keep your normal weapons.

 

The CML is a great dual-purpose weapon that doesn't interfere with squad specialty because it lets you keep the rest of your loadout. This is why it is the most expensive option. But unfortunately it suffers against AV14 and TEQ.

 

The Plasma Cannon is a bit of a rock star in my mind. Cheaper than the Assault cannon, but quite a bit more specialized. It can handle anti-MEQ and can be used against hordes as effectively as any frag missile. But due to the nature of blast weapons, its performance against single targets suffers. It can attempt to be take out lighter vehicles in a pinch but it lacks the number of shots needed to make it a great choice. Pop this on if you are looking to specialize the squad in taking out enemy heavy infantry from 4+ save on up. Split Fire even allows it to break off and target the bigger fish while the rest of the squad can mow down lighter infantry.

 

The Heavy Flamer is probably a bit under-appreciated, but with Vengeful Strike I think it will become a great alpha strike weapon. Not a great choice for units looking to get in to assault (paradoxically) because against the infantry units it will tend to target it may kill enough of them that you fail your charge. But on a good mixed-role unit it can split off and weaken, say, a likely counter-charge unit instead. A great budget weapon for a bit of CQB punch against infantry, but probably the most specialized choice of the bunch. Use it off of deep strike to cause a lot of damage and use it to soften up units you aren't charging and you should be golden.

 

My basic Deathwing "tactical squad" will probably be the classic 245 point Assault Cannon and Chainfist build. This gives them a good, overlapping range band with storm bolters, some anti-tank options, some anti-infantry options and doesn't break the bank. This is the kind of squad I would bring in on turn 1 to hit the enemy hard on a flank. It can outshoot most units and can out-assault the rest. I may replace the Assault Cannon with a Plasma Cannon to save points if I know I can safely specialize a bit more.

 

I will probably field a few mixed Lightning Claw (or TH/SS) and Heavy Flamer squads to drop in as second turn reinforcements once the enemy has moved around a bit and presented some good targets.

 

The CML will likely stay an "assault squad" weapon for me. Especially with a character in there. Then it is free to split off and fire while the character can "mark" enemy squads for charging. Probably a nice touch for Belial's personal squad so that it can drop down and hit up weak rear armour.

 

Overall the weapon costs seem balanced enough that I don't think we will see to many mono-build squads (at least not because they are much more effective than others). I'm hoping we'll see more role-tailoring instead where each squad is equipped differently to support a different purpose in the army. But time will tell as we get more experience with the Deathwing.

[GlauG]

The Heavy Flamer seems like it could be a very nice choice for a 10 man squad accompanied by Belial; drop directly next to the most dangerous, or most annoying enemy infantry unit without scatter, drop a pair of rerolling Heavy Flamer templates on them, as well as 16 rerolling Storm Bolter shots, plus Belial's two 5+ sniping twin-linked BS5 shots. While maybe not massively points-efficient, it's probably enough weight of fire to take out even enemy Terminators. Previously, I hadn't given it even a second thought...

 

Ironically, I might reverse what I did following the major 5E FAQ update, and switch out my CMLs for Assault Cannons in most cases due to the 5pt saving. The rerolls to hit on your first round of shooting after Deep Striking are fantastic, and reward your rate of fire with one accordingly.

 

Plasma Cannon I have yet to consider... I might take one with a Command Squad, rather than a "standard" DW Squad, for the FNP.

 

Cyclone Missile Launcher remains versatile despite the cost increase, and I suspect I will no longer be running 3 identical DW squads in my army so one will stay. Given the long range, it might go to the squad I tend to leave on the table at deployment, rather than DWA.

[Darkangeldentist]

I wasn't sure about this but reading my codex I noticed that the entry for Deathwing terminators states that you may take a heavy weapon for every five models, not every full five models as described for every other unit entry I read.

 

Now from past codices being able to take an upgrade/choice for every X models has generally meant as soon as you spill over X size you can then take another choice.

 

Question is whether this is deliberate or another misprint or I am just bending the interpretation to my favour but if so and that is the intent then that makes the choice of heavy weapon much more flexible and interesting. Taking a single heavy weapon and being able to fire it at another target is great and really opens up the Deathwing's potential for tackling multiple threats.

 

Going from the same point of view as previous posters in this thread I am very much back in love with my assault cannons. The plasma cannon is likely to feature in a list or two just for coolness factor and because it is arguably one of the best weapons to take advantage of split fire. Regular storm bolter terminators are essential for Deathwing to fully exploit split fire so you can fire at two targets and have a good choice for assault targets. With Belial I am going to field a heavy flamer or two, placing those as close as possible to catch horde units with a vengeful strike is just too good to pass up.

 

Bottom line is that all weapons are going to see table time now I think. The pricing is spot on and makes every option viable and good in my eyes.

[Rizara]

I am pretty sure that was intentional, with the unit being 5-10, it wouldn't be fair if you took 6 terminators but two heavy weapons. The idea is in order to get that second heavy weapon, you have to max out the squad at 10, but since the minimum squad size is 5, you get the option for 1 already.

[Upstartes]

By my reading of the codec entry, I don't think you can take CML and CC weapons anymore. This will probably be debated until faq'd, however.

[elphilo]

Might want to read it again. The CML says Take. Not replace anything. So you can get your TH/SS or LCs and take the CML. :D

[BigGumbo]

I wasn't sure about this but reading my codex I noticed that the entry for Deathwing terminators states that you may take a heavy weapon for every five models, not every full five models as described for every other unit entry I read.

I don't think there's a meaningful difference between these two formulations - "for every 5 models" means for each group of 5, you can take one HW; not for each group of "up to 5" you can take one HW.

 

In response to the original post: I'll probably only have one plasma cannon for my command squad, because it looks cool. I've got three greenwing plasma cannon guys, plus Sammael and a dreadnought PC for good measure, so I'll keep my DW to their existing high rate of fire ACs and Cyclones for the most part.

[BigGumbo]

Might want to read it again. The CML says Take. Not replace anything. So you can get your TH/SS or LCs and take the CML. :D

 

I think the ambiguity arises from the CC weapon entry, not the CML: any terminator may replace "his weapons" with LCs or TH/SS.

 

I interpret this as "may replace his standard weapons (i.e. storm bolter and power fist)" with CC loadout, therefore still allowing for the CML on top, but I can see why others would interpret it as not allowing for the CML if the CC loadout replaces all other weapons.

[GlauG]

 

I think the ambiguity arises from the CC weapon entry, not the CML: any terminator may replace "his weapons" with LCs or TH/SS.

 

I interpret this as "may replace his standard weapons (i.e. storm bolter and power fist)" with CC loadout, therefore still allowing for the CML on top, but I can see why others would interpret it as not allowing for the CML if the CC loadout replaces all other weapons.

 

I know it's from another 'dex, but the Ork FAQ suggests that you can choose to do upgrades/weapon swaps in a particular order to get a certain result (see Nobs with power klaws in Boyz mobs). As long as it doesn't change the "type" of model in question, at least.

[Mr.darkness]

Yeah, you first replace all your weapons with the TH/SS, then you take a cyclone. You can't take any of the others because you don't have a storm bolter to replace.