John_f Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Greetings brothers! I'm a new Dark Angels player (yeah, jumping on the band wagon) and one thing that strikes me about the new codex is the synergy between the Ravenwing (scout and have teleport homers) and the Deathwing who can deepstrike without rolling for reserve (plus twinlinked on DS). You could scout move + move + turbo boost the bikes up to 36" and then on turn two DS the terminators within 6". I'm running tactical terminators with CML and with split fire I could possibly kill one heavy tank (rear armour) and an infantery squad. Plus I would have line breaker and possible contest one objective. What do you think? Has anyone tried this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunta Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Thats more or less the idea! Best part is that is both fluffy and effective! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3286741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Welcome, Initiate! Welcome, mate! Glad to have ya. I haven't yet played the new Dex. but what you say sounds plausible. For some reason I wasn't sure about the total 36" movement there but I haven't done all those in a while. lqtm Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3286742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djulius Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Use of homers is key, how probably depends on how you meet the reserves rule (50% on board at END of turn 1), as well as RW I'll add scouts: If enough on the board for reserves rule at the start then mass DWA can be planned for turn 2 as you describe, use of scouts, Belial and RW as you describe present 3 2 options. If not enough on board at start of game (DW heavy) then: RW and scouts start on board carrying at least 2 homers Enough DW land with Belial (&Homer) or on scouts on turn 1 using DWA to satisfy reserves rule Remaining DW arrive throughout game on any of 3 homers on board Either way that's 3 several deepstrike options for as many Termies your list can carry! **CORRECTION - Scouts don;t have Teleport Homer option on our codex. We get Vet Sergeant instead** Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3286744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_f Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 I don't have a full Deathwing army, I have 10 tactical with two CML and a libby in TDA. I'm thinking of getting a Deathwing command squad with banner of fortitude but it gets pricy real quickly. But if deployed correctly both the terminators and the Bikes can benefit from the FnP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3286789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Use of homers is key, how probably depends on how you meet the reserves rule (50% on board at END of turn 1)... Djulius, I think you're conflating the 'no more than 50% of units in reserve' rule with the 'no models on the table at the end of a turn' rule. There have been games in the past (ie before the new codex) where I'd have liked my Deathwing to arrive on turn 2 rather than turn 1. Now that it's a possible plan I'm trying to think what considerations should influence the choice of turn. Turn 1 DWA: Your terminators are kicking bottom and taking names as soon as possible. You only have initial deployment and the scout re-deployment to get teleport homers into position. Turn 2 DWA: Allows the Ravenwing a turn of movement and flat-out speeding to get into position. The enemy might kill your Ravenwing off in turn 1. :-( Depending on the composition and deployment of your army you risk having nothing surviving on the table at the end of turn 1, thus losing the battle before it's really begun. A second turn DWA is an even bigger risk if your opponent has the first turn, as they then have two full turns to eliminate your advance forces. Moving flat out will help, as will keeping the bikes out of sight, but you then miss out on their offensive capabilities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3287021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 My view is that in order to facilitate DWA on Turn 2, the most important thing is to keep your teleport homers/locator beacons alive through the first turn as Cactus says above. With Ravenwing providing the homers, this can be achieved in a couple of ways: 1) Target saturation - Multiple small units of Ravenwing, spread out across the board, providing no clear axis of attack for the enemy to target. He wipes out the bikes on your right flank? No problem, just DWA everyone onto the left flank and concentrate your forces there. For this to work the scout move is essential, but you may not need to turboboost everyone - you may be able to shoot with your multimelta attack bikes and even take out a couple of things! 2) Wound Prevention - For this to work the Ravenwing forces must take advantage of the special units/wargear available to them. Namely, the Dark Shroud and the Standard of Fortitude. Everyone huddling together roun the Dark Shroud, turboboosting for the extra +1 cover save, with the bubble of FnP giving an extra layer of protection. Pros of 1) Your DS options are kept open Cons of 1) You will potentially lose a significant proportion of your RW force Pros of 2) The majority of your RW will make it through the first turn unscathed Cons of 2) He's going to know exactly where you are going to DS, and may be able to react quicker So, which would I consider using? The answer would depend on whether I am running DW supported by RW, or RW supported by DW. If I am mainly running Deathwing, and the Ravenwing are primarily there for facilitating the accurate Deep Strike then I'd go for option 1, as I want to keep my options open. If I am mainly running Ravenwing, and the Deathwing are there as force support, then my main aim is to keep my bike force intact long enough to attack the Schwerpunkt of the battle, so I would choose option 2. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3287035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 So my thoughts on this were posted in a thread that got pushed off the end of page one early this morning. But keeping your deathwing alive is dependent on the dark talon. Let me elaborate. All you need to do is blind units to keep them from hitting the deathwing (with the exception of orcs). As long as you have everything arrive on turn 2 you can effectively destroy your opponent. Here is my analysis of the dark talon. Cons: I have only tried proxying the darktalon, its got potential for sure but its most useful weapon is only 18" that means if you want to keep your flyer you only get one shot with it on a given unit. Thats a pretty tough sell. It seems that you really need to control your reserve rolls to get it on the turn your deep strikers/ most dangerous units arrive. This means for max benefit you must include points cost for azreal with warlord trait of reserve control or comm relay 70pts. Pros: That way as long as you hit with blind and get a good init roll (which can get improved by stasis grenades) your termies will survive that withering amount of fire theyll be taking from blobs. Azreal or a comm relay are essential for this strat. Assuming you get the chance given favorable enemy movement, the sequence should be: (0) arrival, black knight stasisgrenade x, blind x, deep stike enter (+1) blind y, stasisbomb x, assault x with deep striker, (+2) hover mode, blind y/z, assault y/z. If it all arrives together your opponent will be crying. A very interesting consideration is that i believe blind will effect units in their dedicated transports enabling you to take away the shooting ability for emabarked units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3287297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 A very interesting consideration is that i believe blind will effect units in their dedicated transports enabling you to take away the shooting ability for emabarked units. How did you reach this conclusion? My rulebook says that blind effects "any unit hit by a model or weapon with this special rule..." If you hit the transport, what causes the occupants to take a blind test? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3287350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.darkness Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Has anyone actually made an army list that works along these lines? I am interested to know whether you can fit enough bikers and termies to actually be effective. I am not really a DA player ( though my red marines are looking suspiciously green... ). Also, will you be using master of the ravenwing, or deathwing, or both or azrael or none ( and use scouts/tacticals for scoring? ). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3287359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Has anyone actually made an army list that works along these lines? I am interested to know whether you can fit enough bikers and termies to actually be effective. I am not really a DA player ( though my red marines are looking suspiciously green... ). Deathwing supported by Ravenwing and tanks worked ok up to now, and the bikes just got a whole lot cheaper, so I don't anticipate any problems there. Enough points to include all the bikes and terminators I want... well that's a different matter! Also, will you be using master of the ravenwing, or deathwing, or both or azrael or none ( and use scouts/tacticals for scoring? ). That's a question I've been struggling with all week. I lean towards Belial or Azrael as I don't have Sammael's jetbike model. I also struggle to keep bikes alive all game so they can score objectives at the end, so I'm fine with them being fast attack. Belial has an obvious role leading the Deathwing Assault but I'm not sure where to put Azrael. Sitting in a scoring shooty Deathwing squad seems like the best idea, unless you want a core of tactical marines in which case the scoring Deathwing/Ravenwing are less important, so maybe take a different HQ entirely but that's drifting off topic and aaaaaargh! Can you see why I'm finding it hard to write army lists? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3287371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.darkness Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I think I'll go for belial. Azrael doesn't go with bikers or termies, so means that you will probably have to take greenwing, which would take points away from an army list that is already tight. I'm going to try and make a list now, which I'll post here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3287415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.darkness Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I posted a thread here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=269848 with a list I have devised form a cursory reading of the codex and the idea that the ravenwing and the deathwing should work together. I'd love some criticisms :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3287446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 A very interesting consideration is that i believe blind will effect units in their dedicated transports enabling you to take away the shooting ability for emabarked units. How did you reach this conclusion? My rulebook says that blind effects "any unit hit by a model or weapon with this special rule..." If you hit the transport, what causes the occupants to take a blind test? Well maybe this an overly liberal reading of the rules, but doesnt a dedicated transport count as part of the unit? Regardless of that i think the strategem can still work. As for how the list is built that is a post for a differnt subforum... However azreal 2 termie squads, black knights, RAS, dark talon, can easily fit in one list at several point values and that is what youd need for this list to work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3287513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGumbo Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 A very interesting consideration is that i believe blind will effect units in their dedicated transports enabling you to take away the shooting ability for emabarked units. How did you reach this conclusion? My rulebook says that blind effects "any unit hit by a model or weapon with this special rule..." If you hit the transport, what causes the occupants to take a blind test? Well maybe this an overly liberal reading of the rules, but doesnt a dedicated transport count as part of the unit? 'Fraid not. DTs are explicitly treated as separate units as per the Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3287527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Right, well thanks for the tip. Melta first, kill troop after. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269809-ravenwingdeathwing-synergy/#findComment-3287531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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