post-faq army list changes

[jb7090]

More and more I'm questioning the viability of taking both Blastmaster ánd Helldrakes, they pretty much share the exact same strenghts and weaknesses.

 

IMO baledrakes are infinitely better than blastmasters. The only thing the BM is good against is popping transports, maybe killing a couple (2-3) marines who are bunched up. The baledrake can that that better with d3+1 s7 ap3 no coversave vector strikes plus the 360 degree torrent flamer.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

So, it's nice that we can take a blastmaster in a 5 man squad again, but why exactly is this so significant?

 

We could take a 5 man NM squad with a BM in 5th too. It wasn't worth using then. And now it's a few points cheaper, but also requires an HQ tax to get. So, if anything, they are worse.

 

Why do we care about them?

 

What's new is the ability to take 2 in a 10 man squad. Is there any application for those?

[Hazath]

So, it's nice that we can take a blastmaster in a 5 man squad again, but why exactly is this so significant?

 

We could take a 5 man NM squad with a BM in 5th too. It wasn't worth using then. And now it's a few points cheaper, but also requires an HQ tax to get. So, if anything, they are worse.

 

Why do we care about them?

 

What's new is the ability to take 2 in a 10 man squad. Is there any application for those?

 

Blastmasters are 10pt cheaper now. They also ignore cover.

[the jeske]

and you can take more BMs then you can take drakes , and am thinking here about actual lists , not stuff you could possibly do , but never will ,because it would make the list bad.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

So would it be better to take multiple BM squads and save your fast attack slots for melta bikers then? Drakes are relatively durable and contribute to armor saturation nicely. But if your opponent has allocated a bunch of anti-flyer stuff and you show up with no flyers, then they are operating at lower efficiency.

[the jeske]

that kind of a depands on the build and the number of necron/IG/IG-mix armies played in the era.

[Zhukov]

Well yes, Helldrakes áre better than Blastermaster squads, however:

-Helldrakes are Fast Attack, that's the slot where we actually have more good units. (still don't believe it :D)

-Blastmaster squads are the best troop unit we can field, arguably.

 

So basicly you can take different Fast Attack choices, isntead of Helldrakes, by taking Blastmaster squads!

 

MoS Lord; Aura, Brand, Claw, meltabomb 145

Huron Blackheart 160

5 Noise Marines; Blastmaster 125

5 Noise Marines; Blastmaster 125

5 Noise Marines; Blastmaster 125

5 Noise Marnies; Blastmaster 125

20 Cultists 90

20 Cultists 90

Helldrake 170

5 Spawn; MoN 180

5 Spawn; MoN 180

Obliterator; MoN 76

Obliterator; MoN 76

Obliterator; MoN 76

Aegis + Quadgun 100

Total: 1850

[Iron_Within]

I'm not sold MSU Noise marine Squads really. Is there no case for a 10 man with blast masters as the ultimate objective camper?

 

The list Zhukov seems like death by a thousand cuts but in KP missions you'd be giving them away. Explain how this army would work

[Zhukov]

The list Zhukov seems like death by a thousand cuts but in KP missions you'd be giving them away. Explain how this army would work

Well it's just a quick first draft I made, but that's fine because I can indeed explain the thoughts behind it:

the 10 Spawn put a lot of pressure, you can litteraly force oppenent to deal with them.

This bascily means the Blastmaster and Oblits will be able to shoot for quite a time, simply removing squads of infantry each turn. (or shooting at transports first, in case they're there)

In the meanwhile the Cultists + Lords move up behind the Spawn, the Brand adding more anti-infantry power, while Huron adds several little toys to the army.

Well and then there's the helldrake, just to be sure all infantry really dies + adding some anti-air along with the aegis.

 

So in short:

-The army has a shooting base in the Blastmasters + Oblits + Aegis.

-The army has a forward pushing part in the Spawn + Cultist blobs.

-Helldrake because you know, it's deadly turkey OPPPP

-Profit.

 

Killpoints, well, could be worse really.

[the jeske]

at 1850 I would go with a flying mace dp instead of the huron and cultists . this would give 3 forward units and with 2 spawns droped the lord can be biked . all 3 of the forward units would draw tons of fire , at the same time leaving the fire base untouched.

not better pre se ,but with a stronger forward aspect for the list.

 

huron infiltration is good and getting good firing lines is offten crucial for gunline units , but I dont think it is a must have.

[khurdur]

lads, obliterators may lack fearless, but it is no real problem. W can take hordes of noise marines or plague marines, while 6-9 oblits can lay waste to any 2+ armour saves.

 

The oblits themselves won't die or run away easily. Think about it-on T5, 2+ and 5++, it is extremely difficult to hurt, so firstly few enemies will shoot them. And if they do, it will take an inordinate amount of AT fire to drop even one-we are looking at 4-5 melta/lascannon shots to kill one, and the test is on Ld.8 which istill is above average. And if we DO flee, most of their weapons are 24", so we'll have to get close, so they likely won't run off the board letting them rally later on.

 

The only real threat is an enemy brave enough to charge them.A strong monster eg or close combat unit will beat them in cc and then sweep them off the board, but will likely will take a few powerfist attacks, and to charge will be uner 24 inches and will be shot the previous turn with our preferred close range guns.

 

I have played 6-9 oblits in every game of sixth so far and they really have swept the board...their shooting, especially vs infantry is vile.

[Nehekhare]

oblits running off the board is a worst case scenario, but they are also at a severe disadvantage when rallying and succeptable to pinning, both making them fire snapshots only despite being S&P. Also, joining them to a melee is now extremely risky, as the leadership modifiers may get negative very fast with cultists involved or after hatred/rage expired. Votlw can mitigate it, but for an 80pts model, I simply expect fearlessness. I still cannot understand why they took it away, maybe phil just confused their daemon rule with the on in C:CD?

[Zhorzh]

I'm not sold MSU Noise marine Squads really. Is there no case for a 10 man with blast masters as the ultimate objective camper?

 

It's expensive for a unit that won't do much other than blasting stuff with a Blastmaster and sitting on an objective. It's better to cut the unit in half and invest leftover points in something else or make 2 smaller camper squads out of one.

 

I still cannot understand why they took it away, maybe phil just confused their daemon rule with the on in C:CD?

 

Maybe. Or maybe it's just the case of good old GW's nerf of good units in the previous book.

[Lieutenant Steel]

@ Nehekhare: If that were the case why would they not have been FAQ'd to Fearless recently?

[Nehekhare]

one can always hope

[Iron_Within]

On that note. If you have 9 Oblits would that be a base for the DA 6" Ld bubble? Stick him in one unit to make them fearless and the others within 6" to bump their LD up?

[Nehekhare]

DA isn't worth that for >100pts and having all HS slots that close together isn't good either. *perhaps* stick a lord with brand in a unit of 3 if you don't know what else to do with him. generally it sucks to have every unit need a babysitter :(

[Ammonius]

@ Nehekhare: If that were the case why would they not have been FAQ'd to Fearless recently?

Who gained Fearless in an FAQ recently? Which FAQ?

[Excessus]

Nobody did...

[Lieutenant Steel]

No Nehekhare was saying that Obliterators should have still had Fearless (which they had in the old codex) and I said that if that was actually the designer's intentions, and they overlooked it, then they would have FAQ' it in the recent update to give it back to them.

Which they didn't

[Ammonius]

Gotcha. Read it wrong and got mildly excited.

Hopefully, if/when they do a new plastic kit for Obliterators they will address Fearless and the fact that they are made of guns, yet cannot overwatch (also - worthy).

[Nehekhare]

Read it wrong and got mildly excited.

;) I feel ya, brother!

yeah sadly it seems to be designers intent. which i dislike.

[zyl-]

I think an argument could be made now for a blastmaster unit in a rhino, as this would take great advantage of 2 firing points. I know the more competative players who don't like rhinos won't go for this, though.

 

Noise marines compared to drakes is not a very good comparison to me. That's like saying 1k sons are just as good because they have ap3 weapons. Truth is, noise marines can still equip dozens of ignore cover shots, which is much more destructive to some armies than AP3 could ever hope to be. Also, noise marines don't have to worry about how many models they can fit under a template.

 

It's still more of the same problem as always to me. We have to either go for anti TeQ at the cost of shot volume, anti MeQ at the cost of everything else, or anti GeQ and hope to see success against everything else with volume of saves made.

[Sception]

I'm already building a pair of baledrakes. Post FAQ, I'm considering a dakkadrake as well. The anti-flier abilities of a dakkadrake are a lot more appreciable when it can potentially vector strike and fire its autocannon at the same target. Plus, bale drakes just feel kind of cheaty now, and it might be nice to have a flier I can field in casual games without feeling like a bell end.