MagicMan Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Lately ive started playing with an expanded group of gaming buddies, and its seen a big surge in the amount of fliers im having to face across the tabletop. So far i've been ignoring them in favour of focusing on the enemy army, but the Heldrake (AP3 Flamer.. Not great) and the Necron flier with the strength 10 AP 1 beam weapon have convinced me i need some Anti-Air of my own. The problem is, i don't want to buy a flier, i don't really like any of the models.. I play C:SM, by the way. So ive been thinking about taking an Aegis defense line with either Scouts + Telion, or a Devastator squad with missiles. Telion seems like a good bet with his BS 6, and his survivable cover save scouts, but while hes shooting up planes the rest of his squad would be wasting their time. Plus Telion and 10 scouts would come to 200 points, plus a defense line, around 300. Its pretty expensive. With the Devastators, i was thinking of taking an extra body and two to three missile launchers. This would be fairly cheap, and fairly surviveable. The Sergeant could use his Signum to make the Quad-Gun BS 5, and when they're not shooting planes, the whole squad would be fairly effective against lighter vehicles or even heavy Infantry. This would also save me just under 100 points compared to a full scout squad + Quad gun. Whats everyones experience with Anti-Flier? Whats the best option? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Devastators don't really work because without skyfire you're just wasting missiles better spent on ground targets. As for the scouts... why 10? Telion can be taken with less. Besides, assuming you use Interceptor (and why wouldn't you, considering it makes the plane do snapshots for his current as well as his next turn according to RAW if he jinks) you can fire the Quad with Telion on the opponent's turn, and then use the scouts to shoot whatever in your own turn. Obviously Sniper scouts are a good for this, since they can actually have targets in range. Of course once you can't intercept anymore and thus have to use the gun on your own turn, then it's less effective for the scouts. But frankly I wouldn't be so fussed about shooting the gun at BS 6 anyway, it's twin-linked after all, so even with a lowly BS 4 you hit with ~83% of your shots. Overall without flyers the Quad is your only good choice. The next best thing would probably be a Rifleman dread, 4 twin-linked autocannon shots have a fair chance of scoring at least one hit. On a side note, Kantor was manning my Quad Gun against IG yesterday. 4 hits on a Vendetta, 1 penetration, 6 on damage result :D It was the only enemy flyer, so good times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3286811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Forge world stuff? Contemptor mortis dread, Hyperios defense battery? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3286819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperorOfMankind Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 What about a Whirlwind Hyperious? 95pts, twinlinked str8, interceptor, skyfire and heatseeker. pretty sure that'll take down a flyer reliably. Or in the same vein, hyperious air defence platform. 1-4 platforms, 35pts a pop, and it you upgrade 1 to a command turret all the others gain split fire edit:- dammit skeletoro! you got there first! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3286824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSocks Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Aegis defence line with a tactical squad in it. 190 points in total, sit them on your home objective (if you're playing objectives) and the only they have to worry about really is assault. Mine took out a Void Raven on the turn it came in last game, however I ended up taking it out of my list as it didn't suit the way my army played. But for Codex:SM this is probably the cheapest and most effective option. Also since the autocannon is twinlinked there is no need to take anything higher than BS 4. Edit: With regards to Hyperious it depends if you want to play forgeworld kits or not, some people have a problem with them and you won't be able to use them in many tournaments. Though it is your best option if that's not an issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3286827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Edit: With regards to Hyperious it depends if you want to play forgeworld kits or not, some people have a problem with them and you won't be able to use them in many tournaments. Though it is your best option if that's not an issue. Yeah, what MrSocks said, it's why I didn't think to mention FW units. Of course, there's also the expensive method of allying into DA to take skyfiring missile launchers Or another potential ally in the form of IG and their Hydras, of which you can take up to three as a squadron. The main problem with them being (other than requiring an allied codex to begin with), of course, that they suck at shooting ground targets. It's kinda sad that they couldn't give Dreads an option to upgrade them to skyfire. Anything to boost Dreads! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3286842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Torch. Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 How about using the new Dark Talon as a counts-as Storm Talon? The wings really make it look so much better and most of the DA iconography can easily be removed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3286846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Aegis Defense Line is your only real hope there. Get some devastators or a tactical combat squad to man it, and you're set. You'll still need some pretty damn good rolls if you want to kill AV12 fliers, but it should be quite effective vs AV10-11 ones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3286905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 mortis contemptor with 2 tl lascannons and cyclone missile launcher scares apoc fliers and will scare any 40k flier lol (i run 2 KAC on it but fliers are rare out here for now but that is changing). You have a 48 inch threat range with interceptor to kill them before they can even shoot, and you fire 2 s8 and 2 TL s9 ap 2 shots a turn at bs 5 lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3287412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taranis Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I'm a BA player and like bare bones baal predator with TL assault cannon. A razorback could do the same. My point is to not loose a unit/choice if the opponent doesn't have a flier. An aegis defense line can add cover in addition to the skyfire option. Everything depends on the rest of the army. And what you like to field..... Rule number one: Have fun, but that's old news.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3289975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Im with Taranis, twin linked asscans and autocannons are your next best option if you dont want your own flyer..so razorbacks, rifleman dreads, ADL with quadgun (I agree with tacs here). Devs are actually ok, IF, their long fangs with rune priest attached. 7 rerollable missiles will do it. 4 non rerollable missiles wont. Another option is a tad bit of allys without taking a flyer, like the DAs you mentioned, or say 10 GK strikers with 2 psycans + terminator inquisitor with psycan and prescience. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3290024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0lfie Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 You could always ally with tau as well, and use their Skyray missile defense tanks to take on flyers. BS5 S8 AP3 missiles? Two a turn? 3+ cover save in open ground? Sounds good! They also have broadsides, a unit of three broadsides average around a hit against a flyer per turn, and since flyers are so lightly armoured they can put them down in a turn or two, especially the necron ones they auto-penetrated. BONUS: you can also use them for their intended purpose, being the best anti-tank unit in the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3290040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azatoth Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 You could always ally with tau as well, and use their Skyray missile defense tanks to take on flyers. BS5 S8 AP3 missiles? Two a turn? 3+ cover save in open ground? Sounds good! They also have broadsides, a unit of three broadsides average around a hit against a flyer per turn, and since flyers are so lightly armoured they can put them down in a turn or two, especially the necron ones they auto-penetrated. BONUS: you can also use them for their intended purpose, being the best anti-tank unit in the game. Seeker Missles need 6+? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3290055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 Thanks guys! Although i enjoy winning as much as the next guy, i don't enjoy it so much as to include filthy Aliens in my army, so the Tau are out. :P And the DA flier is kinda cool, but i just feel its too big to be swooping around above my army, i don't know i just don't like the look of fliers in general on the tabletop... I think i'll try 5 Devastators, 3 missiles, and the quad. That gives me a decent shot at hurting a flier, and the unit isn't bad at shooting other light vehicles or troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3290509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Yes, twin-linked multi-shot weapons are KEY in an all-marine force from a ground AA standpoint. Frankly I was allying my 3rd Company with IG to provide both flyers, and cheap ground units (vets with plasma spam) in Chimeras for my AA role (orders can be used to essentially twin link IG infantry units). The IG vets have shot down numerous enemy flyers, and often survived the game. I've postulated (IIRR postulates become theorems only after proof) in the pas that twin-linked assault cannon razorbacks are an un-tapped ground AA unit for pure-marine forces. 4, shots, twin linked, rending....2 or three of these would be needed to provide coverage. So, if you are in fact buying dev squads, for instance, get the TL-ASCANN razor as their "transport" and it can provide a needed buff. The added benefit is also the postulate that a TL-ASSCANN razor is more deadly to your opponent than a las-plas razor for the same price. Another source of twin linked weapons are regular dreads (some weapons) and landraiders (potms is a buff here), but both have fire arc problems (but a razorback turret does not have the same issue). Lastly, I'll note that the quad gun remains the best, due to intercept and sky fire. You have a small chance to bring that chaos dragon down BEFORE it can fire on the turn it enters from reserves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3290883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaganLinuxGeek Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 The quad-guns are the best anti-flier in my experience. Last game I played we had 2 "abandoned" quad-gun emplacements on board at start, I was unable to remove them prior to my stormtalons arrival. bubye stormtalon! On the turn it arrived! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3291071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 The quad-guns are the best anti-flier in my experience. Last game I played we had 2 "abandoned" quad-gun emplacements on board at start, I was unable to remove them prior to my stormtalons arrival. bubye stormtalon! On the turn it arrived! Wait, how "abandoned"? If there was no unit to man them, they were unable to shoot. They are Battlefield Debris, not Weapon Emplacements. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3292160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichfaust Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 The quad-guns are the best anti-flier in my experience. Last game I played we had 2 "abandoned" quad-gun emplacements on board at start, I was unable to remove them prior to my stormtalons arrival. bubye stormtalon! On the turn it arrived! Wait, how "abandoned"? If there was no unit to man them, they were unable to shoot. They are Battlefield Debris, not Weapon Emplacements. I'm guessing he means they were placed on the board as neutral terrain, not bought as fortifications. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3292223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 That shouldn't matter. They cannot shoot on their own; they need a model to operate them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3292326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaganLinuxGeek Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Reichfaust is correct. The game started with two quadguns, and two bunkers existing as "abandoned". The guns were not fired until a model was able to make base contact. No rules were violated. The stormtalons cannot enter the board on turn one. They are started in reserves and cannot enter until turn 2 or later. The gun emplacements were operable by turn 1's shooting phase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3292396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Yes, twin-linked multi-shot weapons are KEY in an all-marine force from a ground AA standpoint. Frankly I was allying my 3rd Company with IG to provide both flyers, and cheap ground units (vets with plasma spam) in Chimeras for my AA role (orders can be used to essentially twin link IG infantry units). The IG vets have shot down numerous enemy flyers, and often survived the game. I've postulated (IIRR postulates become theorems only after proof) in the pas that twin-linked assault cannon razorbacks are an un-tapped ground AA unit for pure-marine forces. 4, shots, twin linked, rending....2 or three of these would be needed to provide coverage. So, if you are in fact buying dev squads, for instance, get the TL-ASCANN razor as their "transport" and it can provide a needed buff. The added benefit is also the postulate that a TL-ASSCANN razor is more deadly to your opponent than a las-plas razor for the same price. Another source of twin linked weapons are regular dreads (some weapons) and landraiders (potms is a buff here), but both have fire arc problems (but a razorback turret does not have the same issue). Lastly, I'll note that the quad gun remains the best, due to intercept and sky fire. You have a small chance to bring that chaos dragon down BEFORE it can fire on the turn it enters from reserves. I'm not convinced about TL Assault Cannon. 6 to hit, even with rerolls is 1.22 hits. But against AV12 fliers, which the OP was mainly concerned about, you need a 6 to damage it too, albeit that this would be an auto pen due to Rending. Only 0.2 damaging shots per turn from a TL AC is not a good AA option IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3292401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Morollan, I share your reservations on assault cannons working out as improvised AA. If you have multiple such vehicles spread out to throw a fairly wide net, I can sort of understand that yes, the pose a threat and will chuck a load of dice. . . but I don't think it'll be terribly effective. What elevates a Rifleman's autocannons into the realm of "Maybe it'll work" is the combination of 4 shots, twin-linked, S7, and 48" range. Most flyers have weapons at 48" range or less, and that kind of range can cover a much wider swathe of the board than a 24" assault cannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3292465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimsolo Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I play Salamanders, and since I tend to run a melta-heavy army, I've had some pretty good luck so far with just plain ol' snapshots. I've recently begun thinking that "Twin-linked Snapshots" should be a new Campbell's soup flavor. (Because it's Mmm Mmm Good...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3292498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Tactical squad behind an ADL with Quad gun. Take Sicarius and give them tank hunters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3294721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azash Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Per my comments on the Storm Talon thread I have been thinking about this allot lately. The next solution I intend to try out is an FoR with an upgrade to a Krakstorm, the Icarus since it can't be targeted at TL 96" range and AP2 Str 9 should be fairly effective at penetrating armor 12 fliers. I don't expect to pop them every shot but here is my theory. If a filer suffers a 1-3 result it can only snap fire. So for the IG fliers and the Storm Raven this is effectively neutralizing them for something like the Helldrake since it's main weapon (the one we are all concerned about) is a template weapon it's completely neutralized for that turn. A result of 4 get's you a weapon destroyed not very effective against the fliers that bristle with weapons (i.e. the storm raven) but against things like the Necron fliers this can be crippling so again you stand a good chance with a result of a 4 of rendering the unit ineffective. A result of 5 (immobilized) can be pretty much ignored by most fliers so this is the worst result you can get. An explode is obvious. So on a 1-4 and a 6 you get a roll that effectively neutralizes or severely diminishes the flier. Now you throw in the interceptor rule so you have the chance to do this on the turn the flier comes in thus marginalizing it before it can do any damage and you've done about as good as you can do. The only real trouble is multiple fliers. Never claimed it was a perfect solution more a work in progress Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269814-taking-down-fliers-without-a-flier-of-your-own/#findComment-3295185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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