Caestus Assault Ram rules

[Giarc]

So I will be using my CAR this weekend in a Apoc game. I have never used a flyer before and I was trying to learn the rules for it. It is an assault vehicle. So what are the "how to" rules on assaulting?

 

To my understanding I have to be in hover mode to disembark my units? Is this correct? The "Assault Ram" rules do not mention what mode you should be in, so can i be in flyer mode and get out to assault?

 

Also, to my understanding, I can move 12", disembark, then move flat out (with the CAR's special afterburners) then go an additional 24"?

 

Anyone who can clear this up please?

 

Thanks!

[dswanick]

To my understanding I have to be in hover mode to disembark my units? Is this correct? The "Assault Ram" rules do not mention what mode you should be in, so can i be in flyer mode and get out to assault?

BRB, Pg.80, Zoom, 2nd paragraph, last sentence.

Also, to my understanding, I can move 12", disembark, then move flat out (with the CAR's special afterburners) then go an additional 24"?

No, you can't - BRB, Pg.79, Disembarking, 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence.

(with the CAR's special afterburners)

As an aside, make sure you're using the most up-to-date rules for the Caestus (found in Imperial Armour Aeronautica, Pg.30).

[Giarc]

Thank you for the post! Ill have to get my BRB and check all this out. I just kept reading over differnet parts of the book, and it confused me more and more!

 

Plus... I dont have the Imperial Armor Aeronautica... so I cant get the most up to date rules on the CAR. :( I am sure that would help me out a little bit more too.

[Grey Mage]

The rules havent changed much- you should check out the Imperial Armor Update FAQ on their website. You can find that here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf

[Giarc]

Yes, I do have that update as well. Thank you.

[dswanick]

The rules havent changed much- you should check out the Imperial Armor Update FAQ on their website. You can find that here: http://www.forgeworl...e6thupdates.pdf

The reason I mention IAA is that the current rules for a CAR don't have anything like a special Afterburner rule.

[Giarc]

I got the rules form the forgeworld website,

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/c/caestus.pdf

Afterburner is the special rule that i was talking about. Unless thats not used anymore.

[dswanick]

Nope. Those rules have been updated and superceded.

[Giarc]

Nope. Those rules have been updated and superceded.

 

Damn! Lol... well looks like ill have to do some more research! I hope someone in my gaming group has a the IA Aeronautica book then.

[Drunken Angel]

Dont overlook the advantage of the Caestus Assault ram.  The Caestus can make ram attacks exactly as a tank when zooming (it is a flyer that can ram like a tank the rule explicitly states when in ZOOM).  You can tank shock troops out of the way, death or glory can only be resolved as a shooting attack on a flyer as assaults are not allowed so dont worry about fists hammers etc.

Ramming armour is a really nice buff against light armoured vehicles or hitting anything around AV12 or less.  Just make sure you travel 18 inches before hitting something around that AV 12 value.  You roll 2 dice for armour pen and pick the highest, you also add 1+ to any damage rolls.  Against AV10 or 11 its is less of an issue just plow into them you have a 5+ invun against any attack of any sort on the front armour.

The Caestus is permitted to ram as a flyer in zoom mode it therefore retains the rules for zoom which allows it to then drop its strength 8 AP2 large blast template ahead of it.  Its a form of vector strike which is becoming more common ie chaos helldrakes and necron models also have a similar ability.

 

I can tell you one thing regardless of which model you get, before buying it get the rules and find out how you could use the vehicle.  I figured this out after I got the Ram but thats fine I always wanted the model for the models sake before I figured out how to play it.

Dont listen to all the screams this rule will evoke from the do as I say gang on here, just ignore them. Discuss this rule with your local gaming group and see what they say thats all that matters.  I cleared this with my local gaming group and a TO at a recent major tournament and they are satisfied with the interpretation.

[Leonaides]

" You can tank shock troops out of the way, death or glory can only be resolved as a shooting attack on a flyer as assaults are not allowed so dont worry about fists hammers etc."

 

Really? where in the CAR rules does it say that I acnt hit you with a big fist or a thunderhammer??? If you're close enough to tank-shock me then you're close enough for me to hit back...

[dswanick]

" You can tank shock troops out of the way, death or glory can only be resolved as a shooting attack on a flyer as assaults are not allowed so dont worry about fists hammers etc."

 

Really? where in the CAR rules does it say that I acnt hit you with a big fist or a thunderhammer??? If you're close enough to tank-shock me then you're close enough for me to hit back...

Agreed.  That position is not supported by the rules.  The rules only disallow "Assaulting", it does not disallow striking a model performing a "Tank Shock".

[Drunken Angel]

The Caestus's rule is as follows Imperial Armour page 30

 

"Despite being a flyer the Caestus Assault Ram may make ram attacks in exactly the same way as a Tank when Zooming"

 

The Ram conducts a tank shock while zooming, Zooming flyers cannon be assaulted page 81 BRB.  There is a rule stating that zooming flyers cannot ram or tank shock nor be rammed or tank shocked on page 80 but the vehicle entry when zooming above notes and overrides this rule.

 

The tank shock ram rule also tells us that the ramming tank must only snapfire its weapons however the rule on the rams entry once again tells us this tank shock happens while zooming as a flyer.  Zooming flyers fire up to 4 weapons at full ballistic skill if they moved at either combat or cruising speed 18" to 36"

 

Its absolutely clear that flyer rules are in place for this ram/tank shock attack.

 

If the designers wanted the Ram to be assaulted or to fire at a reduced ballistic skill the rule would have required the Ram to drop into hover mode and conduct a ram as a skimmer.

 

The rams rule is a simple clear entry it conducts a ram attack exactly as a tank while moving as a zooming flyer and fires in the shooting phase as a zooming flyer.

 

As far as assauting it back during a tank shock the rule states you cannot assault a zooming flyer presumably because of their speed in this case thats certainly true.

You may be able to shoot at it and this is resolved as an auto hit on the front armour of 13  the ram can upgrade to ceramite armour and has a 5+ invun on any frontal attacks of any sort including damage from ram attacks.

[dswanick]

Zooming flyers cannon be assaulted page 81 BRB.

This is the part we're talking about, that you are misinterpreting.

 

Zooming Flyers can not be Assaulted. Striking a Tank Shocking vehicle with a Close Combat weapon is not Assaulting the vehicle. A model is given permission to strike a Tank Shocking vehicle once with either a ranged or melee attack. In no way is this an Assault (as defined on pgs.20-28). The prohibition on Assaulting a Zooming Flyer is irrelevant to this permission to strike the Tank shocking vehicle.

[Fibonacci]

As backwards as it sounds, there is a difference between assaulting and attacking in close combat.  Just like the gun emplacement, you are allowed to attack it in close combat but you may not assault it. 

 

Even so, this still not apply to Death or Glory.  A Death or Glory attack is not an assault.  It is not a melee attack nor it is a shooting attack.  It is a special attack with its own rules.  One weapon, one attack, no matter what the profile of the weapon or the model.  It is not an assault.  It is not even a melee attack even if you use a melee weapon.  It is a special attack against vehicles that attempt to tank shock.

[Leonaides]

 

The tank shock ram rule also tells us that the ramming tank must only snapfire its weapons however the rule on the rams entry once again tells us this tank shock happens while zooming as a flyer.  Zooming flyers fire up to 4 weapons at full ballistic skill if they moved at either combat or cruising speed 18" to 36"

 

 

Its absolutely clear that flyer rules are in place for this ram/tank shock attack.

 

The rams rule is a simple clear entry it conducts a ram attack exactly as a tank while moving as a zooming flyer and fires in the shooting phase as a zooming flyer.

 

 

So, tell me where in the rules the ordinary rules of a flyer (firing up to 4 weapons at full BS) gets to ignore a specific rule pertaining to vehicles performing a Tank Shock? General overriden by specific, etc.........

[Drunken Angel]

Attacks occur in the close combat phase (page2). Close combat rules are defined under the assault phase page 20. Rules for assaulting vehicles are described on page 76. Your death or glory model attacking with a close combat weapon has no rules to damage the vehicle unless the rules for assaulting a vehicle are followed.

Zooming Flyers cannot be assaulted

The
tank shock ram rule also tells us that the ramming tank must only
snapfire its weapons however the rule on the rams entry once again tells
us this tank shock happens while zooming as a flyer. Zooming flyers fire up to 4 weapons at full ballistic skill if they moved at either combat or cruising speed 18" to 36"


Its absolutely clear that flyer rules are in place for this ram/tank shock attack.

The
rams rule is a simple clear entry it conducts a ram attack exactly as a
tank while moving as a zooming flyer and fires in the shooting phase as
a zooming flyer.

So,
tell me where in the rules the ordinary rules of a flyer (firing up to 4
weapons at full BS) gets to ignore a specific rule pertaining to
vehicles performing a Tank Shock? General overriden by specific,
etc.........

This one

The Caestus's rule is as follows Imperial Armour page 30

"Despite being a flyer the Caestus Assault Ram may make ram attacks in exactly the same way as a Tank when Zooming"

If the benefit of zooming was not intended by the designer its not hard to require the Ram to become a skimmer since it already has that rule too.

Its pretty simple really.

[dswanick]

Drunken Angel, on 21 Feb 2013 - 15:50, said:

Attacks occur in the close combat phase (page2).

Incorrect. Tank Shocks occur during the Movement phase, and Death or Glory attacks are resolved at that time (Movement phase, not Assault phase).

Quote

Close combat rules are defined under the assault phase page 20. Rules for assaulting vehicles are described on page 76. Your death or glory model attacking with a close combat weapon has no rules to damage the vehicle unless the rules for assualting a vehicle are followed.

Again, incorrect.

"If a unit that has been attacked by Tank Shock(which happens in the Movement phase) passes its Morale check, one of the models in the vehicle's path can stand and attempt to destroy it rather than move out of the way. The model nominated for this heroic duty makes a single Attack against the incoming Tank.

...

The Attack can be either a shot from a weapon carried by the model or a single close combat attack using any weapon carried, including grenades. Whatever form it takes, the Attack hits automatically, so resolve the hit against the vehicle's front armour", BRB, Pg.86

Quote

Flyers cannot be assaulted

Nor does it need to be. The Death or Glory rules (which are neither on pg.2, 20, or 76) gives me permission to automatically hit the vehicle once with a shot or close combat weapon.

[Drunken Angel]

Hmm pretty interesting we are  left with an out of sequence attack that is either shooting or assault.

Shooting is not the issue you can shoot at flyers a tank shocking flyer can be shot and auto hit under death or glory, it even makes sense., firing a melta gun at point blank range.

You can automatically hit a flyer with a close combat weapon but you need to use the rules under vehicle assault results to resolve it.

the attack is a vehicle assault and cannot be conducted against a zooming flyer. 

 

It even makes sense, a model sticking out his power fist and having it ripped off by a Caestus Ram designed to smash into Imperial Cruisers

 

I am happy for this discussion I need to get the rules straight on another thought what are the main differences between CC and shooting

 

Shooting damage, lance weapon ? meltagun? lascannon?

Close combat, Thunder hammer ?  Power fist ? Doom fists (S10?)

[Cactus]

Furthermore, if the caestus "may make ram attacks in exactly the same way as a Tank" surely the Death or Glory rule applies in full, just as it would for a tank.

 

 

 

Hmm pretty interesting we are  left with an out of sequence attack that is either shooting or assault.

 

No, it is neither shooting nor assault. It's a Death or Glory attack that automatically hits (and how to hit the enemy is fundamentally the difference between a shooting and close combat attack).

[Fibonacci]

I don't know how you ever convienced your group that you can hit them while they can't hit you, but kudos for that. 

 

Again, Death or Glory is not an Assault, does not get Assault bonuses and does not activate special rules that trigger off of Assaults. 

 

Page 76 has all the rules for Assaulting vehicles. 

Page 81 says you can't do any of that against a zooming flyer. 

Page 86 has the Death or Glory rules.  This attack can be used against any vehicle attempting to tank shock.

 

A is over riden by B which is over ridden by C.

 

D/G is not an assault.  It is an attack that automatically hits.

[Drunken Angel]

I don't know how you ever convienced your group that you can hit them while they can't hit you, but kudos for that. 

 

Again, Death or Glory is not an Assault, does not get Assault bonuses and does not activate special rules that trigger off of Assaults. 

 

Page 76 has all the rules for Assaulting vehicles. 

Page 81 says you can't do any of that against a zooming flyer. 

Page 86 has the Death or Glory rules.  This attack can be used against any vehicle attempting to tank shock.

 

A is over riden by B which is over ridden by C.

 

D/G is not an assault.  It is an attack that automatically hits.

My highlight in yellow of your opinion  is not written anywhere under the Death or Glory entry.  Another poster neglected to produce the exact wording of the Death or Glory entry I have quoted the full sentence below

 

"Whatever form it takes, the Attack hits automatically, so resolve the hit against the vehicles front armour (even if using a close combat attack)".

 

The rules describe an out of sequence close combat attack covered under assault unless you use the assault entry rules you cannot resolve the attack. 

                                                                      Zooming flyers can't be assaulted.

[Grey Mage]

There is a fundamental difference between 'assaulting something' and 'making a close combat attack'. When you death or glory a tank you can make a close combat attack- this isnt an assault, fun things that happen when you assault *like +1 S power spears etc* dont kick in... you just make one attack.

 

So theres no conflict between the flyer rules and the tank shock rules- why all the fuss?

[Drunken Angel]

There is a fundamental difference between 'assaulting something' and 'making a close combat attack'. When you death or glory a tank you can make a close combat attack- this isnt an assault, fun things that happen when you assault *like +1 S power spears etc* dont kick in... you just make one attack.

 

So theres no conflict between the flyer rules and the tank shock rules- why all the fuss?

 

Death or glory attacks against the Ram are covered under either shooting or assault. Death or Glory is not exempt from the BRB its entry lists the non shooting attack as a close combat attack. How can you consider or resolve it other than as an assault on a vehicle page 76.

 

Death or Glory is an attack that is not an assault on a vehicle ? This is what you are saying despite Death or Glory being noted as a close combat attack in its own entry.

Are close combat attacks not assaults?

There is an entry to resolve the damage as armour penetration in assaulton page 76 is my answer.

 

Its an attack with a special rule resolved as a vehicle assault.

 

Its a zooming flyer and can't be assaulted if the designer wanted to be assaulted it would be forced to ram under skimmer rules

 

 

In truth Grey Mage. This is a flyer that has tank rules I dont expect it to be easy to figure it out. I would expect many variations on its rules interpretation mine is just one and its hardly definitive. If we did not ask questions and challenge opinions here then where?

 

Theres a little bit to get fussed about meltabombs cost 5 points and can be placed in assault how can a meltabomb that cant be thrown and must be placed be used against something that fast? the impact of the Death or Glory attack on the Ram is at the most S8 usually the culprits are a meltagun, fist, lance or hammer. Walkers can't Death or Glory and cant attack it next turn (Zooming Flyer).

Montrous creatures with S10 fists what happens then? I am at a loss on that one?

[Grey Mage]

 

There is a fundamental difference between 'assaulting something' and 'making a close combat attack'. When you death or glory a tank you can make a close combat attack- this isnt an assault, fun things that happen when you assault *like +1 S power spears etc* dont kick in... you just make one attack.

 

So theres no conflict between the flyer rules and the tank shock rules- why all the fuss?

 

 

Death or glory attacks against the Ram are covered under either shooting or assault. Death or Glory is not exempt from the BRB its entry lists the non shooting attack as a close combat attack.  How can you resolve it other than as an assault on a vehicle page 74.  You have a close comabt attack (D or G) that can not be resolved unless under a vehicle assault rule.  You cannot assault a zooming flyer.

 

 

In truth Grey Mage. This is a flyer that has tank rules I dont expect it to be easy to figure it out.  I would expect many variations on its rules interpretation mine is just one and its hardly definitive.  If we did not ask questions and challenge opinions here then where?

 

Theres a little bit to get fussed about meltabombs cost 5 points and can be placed in assault how can a meltabomb that cant be thrown and must be placed be used against something that fast? the impact of the Death or Glory attack on the Ram is at the most S8 usually the culprits are a meltagun, fist, lance or hammer. Walkers can't Death or Glory and cant attack it next turn (Zooming Flyer).  Montrous creatures with S10 fists what happens then? Does a plasma gunner roll gets hot on a Death or Glory shot?  Is Death or Glory a snapshot even the autohitting psychic attacks got nerfed against flyer back to snapshots.

You are confusing headings of rules sections with the rules themselves.

 

You dont roll an assault against a vehicle, you roll an attack. Close Combat attacks are covered under the Assault section of the rules and the Vehicle section of the rules- but that doesnt mean that all close combat attacks are assaults. Assaulting something is a very particular circumstance- wherein you move to another unit during the assault phase and a number of things happen. Once you have gotten into BtB with them the assault is successful- as the rules say you have "completed the assault".

 

A close combat attack is not an assault.