Caestus Assault Ram rules

[Drunken Angel]

Well we will have to disagree on that. Death or Glory attacks can take the form of a close combat attack we can pretend that Death or Glory is merely an attack and not specifically a form of assault but what sort of attack is it then?

 

This was a good discussion and forced me to look this rule up from the latest update, it seems any weapon that autohits a flyer cannot target it.

While reading up on this I looked at the rules for vehicles page 70, there are many different types of vehicles. The vehicle has all of the rules listed for its type. A Caestus is a flyer. You can only ever fire snapshots to hit a flyer (unless using skyfire) Death or Glory is an autohit and therefore Death or Glory shooting attacks cannot target a Caestus. Further to that any weapon or attack that autohits cannot target a flyer.

 

I have been allowing shooting attacks on the ram on auto hit when It seems none are allowed.

Update V1.3

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any
weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically –
interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous
Creatures? (p13)
A:Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

[Raeven]

The problem you are having is reading into the rule beyond, "Despite being a flyer the Caestus Assault Ram may make ram attacks in exactly the same way as a Tank when Zooming"

 

 

It says everything you need to know right there. DESPITE being a flyer and EXACTLY in the SAME WAY as a tank. Those key words give your opponent Death Or Glory. It doesn't matter what a flyer is immune to when it makes a Tank Shock attack.

[Drunken Angel]

The problem you are having is reading into the rule beyond, "Despite being a flyer the Caestus Assault Ram may make ram attacks in exactly the same way as a Tank when Zooming"

 

 

It says everything you need to know right there. DESPITE being a flyer and EXACTLY in the SAME WAY as a tank. Those key words give your opponent Death Or Glory. It doesn't matter what a flyer is immune to when it makes a Tank Shock attack.

And a Death or Glory attack regardless of weapon is an autohit and therefore cannot target a flyer

[MadDoc]

And a Death or Glory attack regardless of weapon is an autohit and therefore cannot target a flyer

And yet being a flyer a Caestus shouldn't be able to tank shock either... except that the Caestus has a rule that specifically allows it to Tank Shock when zooming and just so happens to specify that you should treat it in EXACTLY the SAME WAY as a tank when it does so.

Which Raeven very clearly pointed out in the very post you replied to.

Surely it isn't that difficult to follow...

[Raeven]

You are wrong there too. If I recall correctly, you can't use template weapons in a DoG attack, so the WEAPON you use is not an Autohit weapon, ie template and blast weapons.

[Drunken Angel]

And a Death or Glory attack regardless of weapon is an autohit and therefore cannot target a flyer

And yet being a flyer a Caestus shouldn't be able to tank shock either... except that the Caestus has a rule that specifically allows it to Tank Shock when zooming and just so happens to specify that you should treat it in EXACTLY the SAME WAY as a tank when it does so.

Which Raeven very clearly pointed out in the very post you replied to.

Surely it isn't that difficult to follow...

The exact wording of the Caestus Ram rule is as follows its nothing like your comments

"Despite being a flyer a Caestus Assault Ram may make ram attacks in exactly the same way as a Tank while Zooming"

Page 70 vehicle type, the Ram has all of the rules of Flyer, Hover and Tank

The Ram retains all of those rules even while conducting a ram attack in exactly the same way as a tank

The flyer rule taken from V1.3 dealing with hitting flyers is very clear. Any weapon or attack that autohits cannot target a flyer. A Death or Glory attack is an auto hit and therefore cannot target the Caestus Assault Ram whilst conducting ram attacks as a zooming flyer.

I will place it here again for you to read

Update V1.3

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any

weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically –

interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous

Creatures? (p13)

A:Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping

Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use

blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or

otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes

weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the

Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic

powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and

novas.

[Grey Mage]

No, you both seem to using the same words "exactly the same way as a tank" in particular.

 

That being said, I can certainly see the argument for "just cant make the attack because it hits automatically" as theres nothing saying a vehicle cant be a tank or a flyer, theres just a limited amount of information as to what that means.

 

While I certainly feel a single DoG attack as normal is the sporting way to play it, at the moment it would appear not to be RAW. Ill take it up with the FW guys.

[Drunken Angel]

No, you both seem to using the same words "exactly the same way as a tank" in particular.

 

That being said, I can certainly see the argument for "just cant make the attack because it hits automatically" as theres nothing saying a vehicle cant be a tank or a flyer, theres just a limited amount of information as to what that means.

 

While I certainly feel a single DoG attack as normal is the sporting way to play it, at the moment it would appear not to be RAW. Ill take it up with the FW guys.

 

I am not that worried about winning I certainly won't by taking my flying block of cheese for the win if winning mattered I'd run necron wraithwing or one of those other strong lists.  The Caestus is 295 pts with ceramite armour and its reasonable to want your points out of it.  Ramming is what it does and it makes perfect sense that troops and other vehicles are powerless against something that is designed to slam into cruiser hulls in ram attacks, penetrate them then assault.

 

I am pleased I found a clear rule that currently can satisfy any questions.  Whether I can find opponents who will put up with it ? There seems to be no problem so far most consider it balanced.

[Hellios]

 

No, you both seem to using the same words "exactly the same way as a tank" in particular.

 

That being said, I can certainly see the argument for "just cant make the attack because it hits automatically" as theres nothing saying a vehicle cant be a tank or a flyer, theres just a limited amount of information as to what that means.

 

While I certainly feel a single DoG attack as normal is the sporting way to play it, at the moment it would appear not to be RAW. Ill take it up with the FW guys.

 

I am not that worried about winning I certainly won't by taking my flying block of cheese for the win if winning mattered I'd run necron wraithwing or one of those other strong lists.  The Caestus is 295 pts with ceramite armour and its reasonable to want your points out of it.  Ramming is what it does and it makes perfect sense that troops and other vehicles are powerless against something that is designed to slam into cruiser hulls in ram attacks, penetrate them then assault.

 

I'm not debating rules, but ramming into a wall after you have weakened it with your Melta-cannon is not the same as being hit by a targeted attack. Otherwise you may as well say that the CAR should be immune to all attacks all the time. As I say this is not a rule issue.

[Drunken Angel]

 

 

No, you both seem to using the same words "exactly the same way as a tank" in particular.

 

That being said, I can certainly see the argument for "just cant make the attack because it hits automatically" as theres nothing saying a vehicle cant be a tank or a flyer, theres just a limited amount of information as to what that means.

 

While I certainly feel a single DoG attack as normal is the sporting way to play it, at the moment it would appear not to be RAW. Ill take it up with the FW guys.

 

I am not that worried about winning I certainly won't by taking my flying block of cheese for the win if winning mattered I'd run necron wraithwing or one of those other strong lists.  The Caestus is 295 pts with ceramite armour and its reasonable to want your points out of it.  Ramming is what it does and it makes perfect sense that troops and other vehicles are powerless against something that is designed to slam into cruiser hulls in ram attacks, penetrate them then assault.

 

I'm not debating rules, but ramming into a wall after you have weakened it with your Melta-cannon is not the same as being hit by a targeted attack. Otherwise you may as well say that the CAR should be immune to all attacks all the time. As I say this is not a rule issue.

 

Would you say it is more of a issue you may have with forgeworld rules and models then ? I can tell you the CAR is far from immune to shooting.  Have you ever played with or against the model ?  Thats a question I would like to ask of many of those who posted on here.   I think the more FW is played and the clearer we are on the rules for them the better the 40k gaming experience is beyond just GW models.  Anyone will tell you that FW are very approachable and attentive thats been my experience.

[Raeven]

No, you both seem to using the same words "exactly the same way as a tank" in particular.

 

That being said, I can certainly see the argument for "just cant make the attack because it hits automatically" as theres nothing saying a vehicle cant be a tank or a flyer, theres just a limited amount of information as to what that means.

 

While I certainly feel a single DoG attack as normal is the sporting way to play it, at the moment it would appear not to be RAW. Ill take it up with the FW guys.

 

It doesn't matter.  The act of making a Tank Shock and saving the morale check is what grants the opponent the ability to make a Death or Glory attack.  It doesn't matter what type of vehicle is being faced off against.  It doesn't matter what type of weapon is used for the attack.  (I was wrong about not being able to use template or blast)  There is nothing in the rule that says Flyers are immune to DoG.

 

Face it, DoG is ridiculous no matter what type of vehicle you are facing off against.  It is just as silly for a single model to be able to smash a Land Raider to a halt as it is a CAR.  That argument doesn't "fly". 

 

Tank Shock - In exactly the same way as a tank....means for the purpose of this action Flyer = Tank.

 

Cannot Target Flyers with Autohit Weapons - Flyer is not being Targetted, based on the given definition for targeting on page 12 BRB.  The Flyer is facing the consequences of making a particular action. 

 

Face it, DoG violates about 5 different rules.  DoG allows you to use the profile of any weapon and changes the rules a bit.   You can use the Strength and AP profile of any weapon in this situation for a single attack.  DoG is a special exception to the normal attack/shooting rules.  Because/until there is an exemption for Flyers in the errata or BRB, flyers that can Tank Shock still face the potential of a DoG attack.

[Grey Mage]

Im aware of all of that- but theres no exception made to the blanket protection of "cant be hit by attacks that automatically hit".

 

While I would certainly ask to be granted a DoG attack, and would give one to my opponent, the RAW is clear until changed.

 

The FAQ applies as normal, _____. The Caestus would be moving pretty quickly
thanks to its afterburners, and obviously as it's designed for void
combat it's feasible to assume that either it's going too fast for the
attack to do anything but glance off, or it's displaced by the forward
energy field.

From the FW page on FB.

[Drunken Angel]

Grey Mage, on 22 Feb 2013 - 23:05, said:

Im aware of all of that- but theres no exception made to the blanket protection of "cant be hit by attacks that automatically hit".

 

While I would certainly ask to be granted a DoG attack, and would give one to my opponent, the RAW is clear until changed.

You know Grey Mage you had me ... you explained a very good point and I finally got it. I was ready to concede your excellent point till I stumbled on the FAQ V 1.3.

I was always prepared to accept some sort of attack either shooting or assault but not both so I would have no problem with extending a DoG of some sort in a game and have in the past, usually a shooting attack, I still will in non tourney games even though its not in the rules. If you want to avoid DoG Its not hard to arrange to hit units and avoid the DoG heavy hitters. Even a melta or fist at S8 needs to get a 5 to glance and a 6 to pen the Ram then you get a 5++ invun from any attack.

Against less than sporting players I would enjoy extending .... nothing.

[Fibonacci]

 

 

Page 86 has the Death or Glory rules.  This attack can be used against any vehicle attempting to tank shock.

 

My highlight in yellow of your opinion  is not written anywhere under the Death or Glory entry. 

 

 

 

What part are you saying is opinion?  The rules say you can Death or Glory any time you are Tank Shocked and pass a moral test.

"If a unit that has been attacked by Tank Shock passes its Moral check, one of its models can stand and attempt to destroy rather than move out of the way"

 

 

These are permissive rules. You cannot do anything unless you are permitted to do so by a rule. Once you have permission, you can always do so until you have a rule which specifically denies permission. Once permission is denied, you need yet another specific case that grants permission.  There is no rule that specifically states you cannot Death or Glory a flyer that Tank shocks. There is a rule that says  I can perform a Death or Glory attack against a vehicle that tank shocks.  This rule ALSO superceeds any previous general rules that might be involved.

 

 

[Leonaides]

SO, if you can't auto hit a flyer under any circumstances, does that mean the return impact caused by ramming another vehicle doesn't happen then? That's an auto hit isn't it?

[Raeven]

Under that stipulation, flyers can't take glancing hits from plasma weapons either.

[Hellios]

Would you say it is more of a issue you may have with forgeworld rules and models then ? I can tell you the CAR is far from immune to shooting.  Have you ever played with or against the model ?  Thats a question I would like to ask of many of those who posted on here.   I think the more FW is played and the clearer we are on the rules for them the better the 40k gaming experience is beyond just GW models.  Anyone will tell you that FW are very approachable and attentive thats been my experience.

 

You misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't saying that the CAR can be affected by a DoG attack; my point was there was no point in making a fluff defense for why it can't be hurt by a DoG. I was saying that dealing with the impact from ramming something (which it is designed to do) is not the same as being hit my an attack which is specifically trying to destroy it.

[Drunken Angel]

 

Would you say it is more of a issue you may have with forgeworld rules and models then ? I can tell you the CAR is far from immune to shooting.  Have you ever played with or against the model ?  Thats a question I would like to ask of many of those who posted on here.   I think the more FW is played and the clearer we are on the rules for them the better the 40k gaming experience is beyond just GW models.  Anyone will tell you that FW are very approachable and attentive thats been my experience.

 

You misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't saying that the CAR can be affected by a DoG attack; my point was there was no point in making a fluff defense for why it can't be hurt by a DoG. I was saying that dealing with the impact from ramming something (which it is designed to do) is not the same as being hit my an attack which is specifically trying to destroy it.

 

Yes totally agree with you there I could imagine a Caestus just ripping the arm off or destroying anything that tried to strike it with a slow unweildy initiative 1 weapon like a hammer or fist.  Grenades would be too slow but that would not stop Orc nobs from punting bomb squigs into the air in front of it.  The most likely hit would be from a meltagunner getting a snap shot off from the hip.  That seems reasonable.

 

SO,

if you can't auto hit a flyer under any circumstances, does that mean

the return impact caused by ramming another vehicle doesn't happen then?

That's an auto hit isn't it?

That is a very good point, I would imagine if someone told me their assault ram designed for collisions cannot be hit back when it strikes a vehicle I would be  thinking thats a bit cheesy.  As I read the rule relating to resolving the ram collision with another vehicle it does not mention attack even once in 2 pages 85 and 86 .(the only time an attack is mentioned is for the autohits on Death or Glory).  The return impact is described and resolved as a collision with each vehicle suffering a hit to the value of xx.  The V1.3 addresses attacks and weapons not collisions so its safe to say the ram is hit back in return from a collision

which is as it should be.

 

Edit to add Forgeworld have responded to a request clarifiying  V 1.3 and they support the rule preventing the zooming flyer being targetted.  RAW is how they designed and intended the Caestus Assault Ram to be used.  Forgeworld  did write one single sentence in the Rams rules that tied tank and flyer in nicely. 

Its good to see brevity, clarity and a fast response.  I am off to a 9600 point game with 2 Ravens and my flying cheeseblock.

Over the weekend I will post up their response verbatim.

[Grey Mage]

SO, if you can't auto hit a flyer under any circumstances, does that mean the return impact caused by ramming another vehicle doesn't happen then? That's an auto hit isn't it?

No, because thats not an attack- the verbage is entirely different for rams than for DoG.

 

 

Edit

to add Forgeworld have responded to a request clarifiying  V 1.3 and

they support the rule preventing the zooming flyer being targetted.  RAW

is how they designed and intended the Caestus Assault Ram to be used. 

Forgeworld  did write one single sentence in the Rams rules that tied

tank and flyer in nicely. 

Its good to see brevity, clarity and a fast response.  I am off to a 9600 point game with 2 Ravens and my flying cheeseblock.

Over the weekend I will post up their response verbatim.

I already have done so above- I was the one that asked them.

[Raeven]

I still see Death or Glory as a special exception to the regular rules, despite FW's opinion on the matter.

[dswanick]

I still see Death or Glory as a special exception to the regular rules, despite FW's opinion on the matter.

Agreed, if my opponent tells me he can Tank Shock my unit and I can't DoG (shooting or assault) - I'll politely tell him I'm not interested in gaming with him anymore.

 

Of course, I think the whole notion of "auto-hit" can't "hit" flyers is a contrived "sell more flyer model's"-based rule on the part of GW anyway...

[Gentlemanloser]

I really have no vested intrest in this, Forge World rules break the game? Go figure.

But really, all that FW answer does is confirm that the FAQ answer for fliers applies to thier Flyer.

Fliers can't be hit by anything that doesn't need a to-hit roll, or automatically hits. This includes a DoG attack.

This is a pure GW FAQ answer, and nothing to do with FW.

Of course, I think the whole notion of "auto-hit" can't "hit" flyers is a
contrived "sell more flyer model's"-based rule on the part of GW
anyway...

Yup.

IIRC, it was inlcuded after Nova, where a Space Wolf Player used Njals auto hitting lighting to blow up every flyer he faced.

Can't have that! No one owuld buy the OP fliers otherwise!

Nerfed.

[Grey Mage]

Since FW rules can be more complex I feel its good to get their opinion on the subject, hence the question directly to them. We often debate RAW and RAI here- well, when you can ask the developer you can tell pretty quickly where RAI and RAW align.