Running DW in 5 man unit

[John_f]

Is there any downside to running these guys in groups of five except for force organisation slot restrictions?

 

They can take one heavy weapon per five. Easier to DS. Can claim multiple objektives. Less in risk of powerfull psychic spells such as Hallucination. Can fire at more targets. Forces opponent to fire at different targets.

 

What are the downsides?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

~In the last edition we were forced to have only five models. The only downside to it is that with two (or more)casualties the squad isn't as good in close combat or shooting, but that is to be expected.

[Cactus]

In my experience 5-man terminator squads become much less threatening after taking a couple of casualties. I intend to try increasing some to 6 or 7 and see if that makes a difference.

 

If you're using chaplains or librarians to buff units (or Belial's accurate deep strike) you get a better return with a larger unit. I'm not convinced this worth the loss of flexibility if your Deathwing terminators are your scoring units but one large elite squad supporting a power armoured force could be effective.

[facmanpob]

Bigger squads are tougher to take down and deal more damage over a longer period of time as they can take more punishment. But smaller squads enable you to do target saturation, which makes it harder for your opponent to work out which is the most important squad to take out. Swings and roundabouts really - I always think its more what you do with your squads than how large they are! ;)

[IanSturrock]

Deep striking is very different depending on squad size too.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Also consider this: If you have for instance five 6-man squads, for a few extra points you can have 6 five men squads which means an extra heavy weapon an extra scoring unit and an extra target for saturation.

[facmanpob]

Also consider this: If you have for instance five 6-man squads, for a few extra points you can have 6 five men squads which means an extra heavy weapon an extra scoring unit and an extra target for saturation.

It may not even cost more points.......e.g.

 

5 x 6-man squads = 1320 points

3 x Assault Cannon, 2 x CML = 110 points

 

6 x 5-man squads = 1320 points

1 Hvy Flamer, 1 PC, 3 AC, 1 CML = 110 points

 

I'd rather take the 6 x 5-man squads in this example I think :)

 

Obviously, though, there are going to be times when increasing the squad size is more appropriate!

[Haranin]

Haven't played with the new book yet, but the two obvious cases for large then 5 man squads are:

 

1. When you have some random points dividable by 4X and have no better idea then increase squad numbers

2. Nightfight - infravision librarian with divination is a good reason to take a 10 man unit with 2 CML

[elphilo]

That's the problem I'm running into. How many to take? When you take 5, like others have said, just a few casualties really hurts the squad. But then when I think about taking more than 5 but less than 10, I think why not just take the 10 for the extra heavy weapon. But then of course that unit has become over 400 points, and is only one troop selection. And with the abundance of objectives (my last game had 4 and the tournament I played in last weekend had 5 per mission) you get into the real crux of the issue. Needing more units of troops on the board. It makes me start thinking in circles lol :P

[facmanpob]

That's one of the reasons I like Ravenwing - a 3 man bike squad (2 meltaguns) with MM Attack Bike runs to a mere 155 points, has great anti vehicle capabilities and consists of 2 scoring units (obviously with Sammy or Azzy unlocking them). Deathwing are more expensive, and so I think have to be more focussed on objective denial.......if your opponent has all of his troop choices killed by your DW, he can't win the game! :)

[elphilo]

That's one of the reasons I like Ravenwing - a 3 man bike squad (2 meltaguns) with MM Attack Bike runs to a mere 155 points, has great anti vehicle capabilities and consists of 2 scoring units (obviously with Sammy or Azzy unlocking them). Deathwing are more expensive, and so I think have to be more focussed on objective denial.......if your opponent has all of his troop choices killed by your DW, he can't win the game!

Agreed. But objective denial is somewhat hard in my little gaming group. One runs a blob of 50+ IG, then a few Veterans in Valkyries to grab objectives at the last minute. The other runs mass cultists. While the cultists tend to be easier, you have to devote a lot of shooting to that blob squad. So I might have to run more than just terminators to get more firepower on the board, which makes me a tad bit sad, I'm not going to lie.

[facmanpob]

That's one of the reasons I like Ravenwing - a 3 man bike squad (2 meltaguns) with MM Attack Bike runs to a mere 155 points, has great anti vehicle capabilities and consists of 2 scoring units (obviously with Sammy or Azzy unlocking them). Deathwing are more expensive, and so I think have to be more focussed on objective denial.......if your opponent has all of his troop choices killed by your DW, he can't win the game!

Agreed. But objective denial is somewhat hard in my little gaming group. One runs a blob of 50+ IG, then a few Veterans in Valkyries to grab objectives at the last minute. The other runs mass cultists. While the cultists tend to be easier, you have to devote a lot of shooting to that blob squad. So I might have to run more than just terminators to get more firepower on the board, which makes me a tad bit sad, I'm not going to lie.

50 guardsmen = Ouch!

Yeah, unfortunately, in those instances, specialist units such as DW and RW can struggle..........and that's where the Standard of Devastation can come in handy! I'm giving serious thought to making the list below the core of any force I take:

Azzy

Libby

Command Squad w/ SoD

2 x barebones tacticals

ADL with Quad gun

825 points and can pump out 100 bolter rounds per turn out across midfield. If I'm playing at 1500 points that still gives me 675 points to spare, enough for 2 scoring DW units and a small RW unit to provide accurate DWA.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm still a fan of small DW units, although a couple of years ago I ran a 10-man tactical terminator unit as part of a Codex: Space Marines army against an IG infantry list. They all died by turn 5, but it took most of my opponent's army to kill them, and I easily won the game because the rest of my army was largely unmolested (even accounting for the fact that 20% of my army was lost to a DS mishap earlier on in the game!). So maybe against horde style armies 10-man DW with lots of Heavy Flamers is the way ahead?

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

I also play vanilla marines and my thought was always that if you were deep striking, you wanted to have smaller squads so they don't mishap but if you were starting them out on the table then bigger was better. This may relate to my tactical uses though. If I was running tactical terminators, I tended to put them on the table first turn (this has changed somewhat with hammer and anvil) because I want the assault cannon/cyclone firing from turn one. They tend to get parked centrally in places where I think the enemy assault force wants to go or where there is not much cover for my other guys. If I run assault terminators, they tend to get a Land Raider or DS and run in smaller squads. Deep Striking terminators always ran in small groups because of mishaps and because I tend to view them as units destined to get wiped out. I wasn't so worried about their numbers getting reduced; one terminator assaulting a havoc squad still ties up all those heavy weapons. CAVEAT: I never really ran pure Deathwing.

[EPK]

Thought I would note the old shoot and fall back maneuver that was effectively used (before the DA got updated TH/SS). Now that you have to pay for TH/SS, full squads of them are obviously going to get less common. The fall back method was basically that you used that 24 inch bubble to stay out of being assaulted by mobs. It should even be easy to accomplish with pre measuring legal. So, move up into that 24 inch range and shoot. Enemy moves towards you, you move back and shoot again, repeat as needed to thin them out. Of course, other threats might hamper your ability to keep pulling if off.

[John_f]

I hear some solid arguments like the librarian buff, but I really dont get the argument that a smaller squad is easier to hurt or that the damage output is hurt more if the casulty comes from a smaller squad. Since the squad is fearless, the loss of a terminator is basicly the same if the loss come from a squad of 1x10 or 2x5.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

If you had a 9 person squad that took 6 casualties, you would still have three TDAs left. Whereas three 3 person squads would be down to one each assuming they all survived as squads. In that last turn in a mission like Purge, you would be a lot more durable with 3 TDAs and if you lost them would give up only one VP. It also kind of makes for reverse saturation - you have get to a small enough squad and it cannot accomplish much so you have to tie up more of your squads dealing with it. Like all things in 40K there are trade-offs though. For example, you want any assault you do to end at the end of one of their CC phases, not yours. So you can be too killy (too big) or not killy enough (too small). Like Goldilocks, you are looking for just right.

 

Assume you want to have your TDAs DS in to assault in the next turn and assume that you need 7 to be effective against the target or you risk getting tarpitted. You can split into 2 squads of 5 and put both in DS. In the perfect world this would be better because you could put them both on the board and get a bit more target saturation. But you'd have more chances for the scatter to separate your forces and maybe put one group out of assault range. You do have a large advantage that you can choose what turn they will come in on with the DW and you KNOW they will come in then (otherwise you'd risk defeat in detail as they come in on different turns). However, you still risk losing that unit coherency and having them not be able to mount their attack together due to scatter. You can also minimize the scatter of one group with Belial, but if you had one big group, then you could put Belial with it and know that it would come in when you wanted and where you wanted as a whole group.

 

Now, I don't necessarily think that it is always a one size is always better situation, but clearly there are times and situations when one is better.

[IndigoJack]

multiple small units also help keep units alive by sometimes forcing your opponent to waste an entire unit of shooting on the two terminators that survived the previous round, or ignore them and suffer their wrath in your turn. It also gives your opponent a better chance of overkilling, causing him to loose efficiency. For example, you have a 10 man unit and two 5 man units . The 10 man and a 5 man unit suffers 4 casualties. The 10 man unit, while still at higher efficiency, is still a priority target next turn. The 5 man unit, while not efficient at one man now, still has to be dealt with. All that being said, I think 7 terminators is optimum size, at least, that was what I discovered back in my daemonhunter days.

[Garath]

In a tournament setting , there's little reason to go below 10 man squads.

 

Some of my reasons for this:

- they have split fire

- are much harder to destroy in cc

- Librarian psychic powers enhance and protect more of them

- deep strike is less of an issue if they are joined by Belial

- night visors

- 2 CML with primary divination power are sweet

- huge kill point denial

 

Target saturation means squat. Take a power field generator and give them all a 4++ from shooting to begin with.

[IndigoJack]

In a tournament setting , there's little reason to go below 10 man squads.

 

Some of my reasons for this:

- they have split fire

 

 

I'm not sure how split fire is any better at 10 man than 5 man, since the USR states that only one model may do it.

 

- are much harder to destroy in cc

 

So are two 5 man squads.

 

- Librarian psychic powers enhance and protect more of them

 

This is true.

 

- deep strike is less of an issue if they are joined by Belial

 

Or if your using teleport homers

 

- night visors

 

True, but if you're already withing 12" they're only getting stealth. I can see where it would help though.

 

- 2 CML with primary divination power are sweet

 

They're already twin-linked after DSing.

 

- huge kill point denial

 

 

In a tournament setting, MSU is far better. KPs account for 1/6 missions in the rule book. In tournaments that use custom missions, KPs are either secondary or tertiary objectives. Simply put, scoring gets you more points. MSU works better for scoring, as you have target saturation to keep things alive.

 

- Target saturation means squat. Take a power field generator and give them all a 4++ from shooting to begin with.

 

a 4++ means squat against small arms fire.

 

 

All of this doesn't take into account that 10x terminators with belial and a TDA libby is almost 800 pts. That's one unit that's firing at 2 targets (with split fire) and can be avoided by smart players and kited down over a few rounds.

[Garath]

Split fire means that indeed only one model may do it - and it will be a heavy weapon in both cases. So there's no difference between a large squad and 2 small squads firing at a tank and some troops.

 

10 man squad firing say 9 storm bolters and one CML against troops- second CML fires at a tank.

 

1st 5 man squad fires at a tank ,second fires against troops. 1st squad wastes all stormbolter shots against tank unless the split fire. That means again only 1 CML fires at it. Second unit might also split fire - then and only then you get a shot extra.

 

10 man squad is better with Libby tho, they split fire and everyone get's a re-roll. If you're using 2 small squads , only one gets re-rolls.

 

 

Night visors

 

If you do deep strike within 12" ,or walk- they only get stealth.

Night visor on a Libby gives you a sweet spot . You don't need to DS first turn and end up bunched up. Instead , deploy on table if it's night fight and shoot the crap out of something with Div. primary power before the game has begun. Night fight will protect you from their firepower , but night visors make sure you'll get first blood and not your opponent.

That and 4 shots with CML from downtown with a re-roll to hit.

 

 

MSU and tiebreakers in tournaments

 

Depends on meta and the way tournies are organised. If the case is as you described, then I would take one big unit and 2 small ones - and have it both ways.

So that would make an 1500 pt army with 5 KP.

 

 

Target saturation , small arms fire

 

Small arms fire is plentiful and common. It is the bane of terminators - but so are horrible things like Vindicators, plasma cannons etc. Target saturation doesn't help against small arms fire, as no single unit can kill a lot of terminators in a single shooting phase , unless it's packing plasma. What small arms fire does, is cripple 5 man squads if you have the bummer to roll like crap and loose 2 of them - and are left with 3 which are easily dealt with later.

 

10 termies, after loosing 3-4 guys still have 2 heavy weapons and are still mean mofos - and still have a Libby.

 

 

800pts

 

I'd say it's worth it. Terminator lists are sort of like poker anyway- you either go "all in" or not- even when you're bleffing

 

 

.

[IndigoJack]

Split fire means that indeed only one model may do it - and it will be a heavy weapon in both cases. So there's no difference between a large squad and 2 small squads firing at a tank and some troops.

 

10 man squad firing say 9 storm bolters and one CML against troops- second CML fires at a tank.

 

1st 5 man squad fires at a tank ,second fires against troops. 1st squad wastes all stormbolter shots against tank unless the split fire. That means again only 1 CML fires at it. Second unit might also split fire - then and only then you get a shot extra.

 

10 man squad is better with Libby tho, they split fire and everyone get's a re-roll. If you're using 2 small squads , only one gets re-rolls.

 

 

Night visors

 

If you do deep strike within 12" ,or walk- they only get stealth.

Night visor on a Libby gives you a sweet spot . You don't need to DS first turn and end up bunched up. Instead , deploy on table if it's night fight and shoot the crap out of something with Div. primary power before the game has begun. Night fight will protect you from their firepower , but night visors make sure you'll get first blood and not your opponent.

That and 4 shots with CML from downtown with a re-roll to hit.

 

 

MSU and tiebreakers in tournaments

 

Depends on meta and the way tournies are organised. If the case is as you described, then I would take one big unit and 2 small ones - and have it both ways.

So that would make an 1500 pt army with 5 KP.

 

 

Target saturation , small arms fire

 

Small arms fire is plentiful and common. It is the bane of terminators - but so are horrible things like Vindicators, plasma cannons etc. Target saturation doesn't help against small arms fire, as no single unit can kill a lot of terminators in a single shooting phase , unless it's packing plasma. What small arms fire does, is cripple 5 man squads if you have the bummer to roll like crap and loose 2 of them - and are left with 3 which are easily dealt with later.

 

10 termies, after loosing 3-4 guys still have 2 heavy weapons and are still mean mofos - and still have a Libby.

 

 

800pts

 

I'd say it's worth it. Terminator lists are sort of like poker anyway- you either go "all in" or not- even when you're bleffing

 

 

.

 

The difference between two 5 man targets firing at tanks and troops and one 10 man target is that the two 5 man can hit 2 tanks and two units whle a 10 man hits one tank and one unit. If the first 4 storm bolters did the job, then the other 4 can fire at a different target. If your deepstriking, the re-roll from prescience is less important, because you're weapons are already TL.

 

As far is the infravisor goes, my argument is negated because I confused it with the auspex. I still believe that one prescienced CML is going to do pretty well against things that can reliably give you first blood. Additionally, if you're running a pure DW force, first blood isn't going to be that easy to get against you, and you'll probably have another turn to try again.

 

While a 3 man terminator squad might seem crippled, it's still something that your opponent has to deal with. The thing about terminator armies, is that they don't work by wiping your opponent out, they work by surviving and holding/contesting objectives. To that extent, you only need one terminator alive to do that.

[IndigoJack]

Additionally, while a 10 man squad will wipe out almost anything it gets in combat with, this isn't always a good thing since it will leave you open to fire next turn. A 5 man squad on the other hand, will probably not crush them on the turn they charge allowing them to stick it out for a turn and shield them from shooting next turn.

[EPK]

1st 5 man squad fires at a tank ,second fires against troops. 1st squad wastes all stormbolter shots against tank unless the split fire. That means again only 1 CML fires at it. Second unit might also split fire - then and only then you get a shot extra.

 

You lost me here...

 

10 Man shoots one CML at tank and one CML + all SBs at infantry

 

as opposed to

 

First 5 man shoots CML at tank and all SBs at infantry

Second 5 man shoots CML at tank (possibly same tank) and all SBs at infantry

 

So with two separate squads, you have both CMLs able to strike out at armor while their SBs hit infantry.

 

EDIT: IndigoJack's point I believe.

[Garath]

One 10 man squad with 2 CML and storm bolters with a lvl 2 Libby with Infravisor and Auspex and Power field generator can fire at 2 targets with a re -roll and is safer against plasma, Vindicators etc then...

 

5 man squad with Libby

5 man squad

 

 

Anyone trying to assault the 10 ma squad will get their ass handed to them.

With 5 man squad you can be selective.

 

10 man squad can stretch and assault multiple units if the need arises. Or not...

 

10 man squad can use a congo line to assault a unit (after shooting it) and engage with a minimum number of models making sure the target will survive, and surely be killed in the opponents turn , leaving you to consolidate and do it again.

 

Emperor forbid you get the psy.power that gives overwatch on full Bs...then they just entered cheeseland.

[EPK]

One 10 man squad with 2 CML and storm bolters with a lvl 2 Libby with Infravisor and Auspex and Power field generator can fire at 2 targets with a re -roll and is safer against plasma, Vindicators etc then...

 

Well that point was that 2 five man squads can actually shoot at 4 targets.

 

But I hear what you are saying on the rest of your comments.

 

Perhaps there is a benefit to having one 10 man supported by multiple 5s.