DoggNewTrix Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Sooo, if the fluff has Luther falling to chaos and Zahariel the libby was with him why didn't the watchers put a stop to it? They threated to destroy the libby a number of times why didn't they just kill off Luther and put a stop to it themselves? What do the Dark Angels have on the little fellas that keeps em from just wiping out the whole lot? I get the impression they could do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Speaking of fluff. Seems as though we will need more WitD's to cart around our Chapter Relics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 b/c that story is not completed yet. We know that Luther is falling to chaos. Zahariel doesn't know that yet... In 30k mucking around with chaos doesn't mean you are obviously a follower of chaos. Post HH, sure. As Luther gets more corrupt, it will be interesting to see if Zahariel follows or rebels. It would be awesome if Zahariel rebels from Luther, goes back to being a loyalist, and becomes Cypher. It would explain a lot about why Cypher has a weird agenda that benefits the Imperium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Who knows? The new codex fluff has them also been outside of the rock. Apparently many where present atop a spaceship (cant remember the class) and on the command center no less, along side Belial. They also carry the relics of the chapter nowdays. It seems they are interconected to the inner circle members completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 It would be awesome if Zahariel rebels from Luther, goes back to being a loyalist, and becomes Cypher. It would explain a lot about why Cypher has a weird agenda that benefits the Imperium. I honestly think this is going to happen. It's been set up so perfectly for him to take up the Mantle of Cypher when he realizes that Luther is being influenced by Chaos. At least I really hope that happens, because it would put an identity on Cypher. But I doubt they'll do that. Though I hope I eat those words! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I really hope we never learn who/what he/it is and what protects him. Its a mystery thats once unravels will leave a hole behind IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzekyleVIII Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Theres already a cypher roaming round in 30k its a position/ rank that exists within the DA isnt it? I may be wrong bt that was my interpretation? So he's already about and it couldnt possibly be zahariel? Sorry if i am wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontyBob Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 There is a Lord Cypher rolling around the 30k universe. He's the embodiment of the order as it were. I can envisage Zarahiel killing the old one as a traitor then donning the mantle but: The one thing that would hold against this theory for me is that there's no record of Cypher ever having used a psychic power (unless his uncanny escapes are that psychic power but I can't help but imagine that one of the people surrounding him in the past might have noticed witchcraft....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerixis Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I don't think it would have been Zahariel, the Lord Cypher was an individual entrusted with keeping safe the traditions and beliefs of the Order and the Legion, and as he was a Space Marine at the time (as opposed to a Luther-like 'enhanced human') he would have had access to leave Caliban at any time. If your sacred duty was to defend and protect the honor and history of your Legion, I think the ultimate goal would be to clear the name of that which you have sworn. It makes sense to believe he would have had an ancient and sporadic device that allows access to the webway, a psyker couldn't have lasted 10,000 years with the state of the warp back then and during the Scouring. I also really want to uphold the Starchild prophecy, even if GW have retconned the balls outta that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoggNewTrix Posted January 19, 2013 Author Share Posted January 19, 2013 Sure but he's a Knight of Lupus. An enemy of the order the lion opted to keep around.... I think this Lord Cypher will be the one causing so much trouble in the 41st. I just dunno if Zarahiel is gonna stay true, he did after all let luther shoot err, the other libby. I love the Starchild stuff and always liked to think that's why Cypher was heading to Terra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I doubt Zahariel would try to supplant Cypher AND immitate his fighting style (the 30k Cypher is already rocking the gunslinger look). My theory: the Lion kept Cypher (a Knight of Lupus) around due to his extensive knowledge of the corruption of Caliban. When Luther was sent back, Cypher introduced him to the sorcerous tomes of his order in a misguided attempt to do something against the greater daemon plaguing the planet - with or without the consent of the Watchers in the Dark (that is, I'm not sure). Since then, I think Cypher's been part of the Watchers' long-term plans. The Watchers keep the Lion safe and have actually helped him heal since the Heresy. They did so because they're keeping him in reserve until the day the Primordial Annihilator starts overcoming the Imperium (eg, any day now). The Watchers also work with the Inner Circle. Unbeknownst to the Inner Circle, though, the Watchers also work with Cypher, who has a mysterious agenda... but also redeems Fallen and is working from within Chaos to kind of/sort of undo their works when it matters most (see 13th Black Crusade). In this sense, it is the Watchers who are responsible for Cypher's constant escapes. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastic Rat Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Where are you guys getting this fluff from? I read the tw Dark Angel HH novels that I know of. Are there more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 In the primarchs book the lion openly talks to the watchers about the fall and the HH so its not too much of a stretch to believe they are intimately connected to the inner circle and SGM. Im not sure if its the watchers or the sgm who help cypher, Ive often thought the ultimate secret would be that the most sought after fallen is actually a loyalist on a secret mission to redeem the chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Brother Plastic Rat, its more or less (to use a modeling term) a kitbash of fluff. Numerus sources, taking bits from hear and there and combining them. Thats what keeps the DA intresting and not so bland like lets say the smurfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen Avenger Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Who knows? The new codex fluff has them also been outside of the rock. Apparently many where present atop a spaceship (cant remember the class) and on the command center no less, along side Belial. They also carry the relics of the chapter nowdays. It seems they are interconected to the inner circle members completely. With a bow to the statues that flanked the chamber, Brother Valefor; Librarian of the Dark Angels, approached the command altar of the strike cruiser, Sword of Absolution. At his appmach, a cluster of Watchers in the Dark scattered into the shadows, leaving only Belial poring over the maps and halo-displays. from the Dex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Thanks for taking the time to quote the lines from the codex brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lothlorienmoon Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Watchers in the Dark are, as far as I can tell, are benevolent warp entities, a la The Sanguinor of the Blood Angels. Remember that the Warp reflects all emotions, it's just that the negative ones have the strongest imprints, and thus gave birth to the chaos gods as we know them. So to them, human ranges of time and morality are a little skewed. They may well be working with both Cypher and the SGM of the Dark Angels to meet their own ends. Ends that, from one stand point, will help preserve humanity, even though the Imperium in 40k is a horrific parody of what the Emperor set out to do. As far as Cypher goes, Lord Cypher was a title (cyphers are codes, code breakers, etc.). He kept the Code, the Oaths, the history of The Order alive, as a living reminder of where the Dark Angels came from. The Cypher in the HH novels, most likely is the Cypher of 40k. He dual wields pistols, already has a gray area stance on Chaos (part of Lupus), and is a little sinister and a little good. Like an Inquistor that uses demon energies to destroy demons, he might not be evil himself, we just don't know enough about him. He however, does not work the the SGM, as far as we know, because a whole chapter was raised to search and capture him (Guardians of Caliban). As far as it goes, Zahariel is a story vessel. He's trapped in the middle of things, and his mind has been tampered with, which gives him great incentive to not trust the Lion anymore. From a literary standpoint, the great thing about him as a "hero" is that he could go either way and it wouldn't surprise anyone. Personally, I want a third book, like, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion El Jason Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 It would explain a lot about why Cypher has a weird agenda that benefits the Imperium. Benefits the imperium? By fighting with chaos legions, stealing gene seed for them to make hundreds more renegade marines and generally being a bad guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Lothlorienmoon, I think Watchers are more xenos than warp entities. At least that's what I got from their initial description in "Descent of Angels" and their own admissions in "Fallen Angels", which steer them toward the Cabal shown in "Legion". Lion El Jason, It's not quite so clear and straight-forward... but then, what is where the Dark Angels are concerned? ;) Cypher is witnessed fighting Chaos outright in "Malediction", for instance. In "Easy Prey", he denounces brotherhood with the Dark Angels, professes knowing (present tense) the Emperor, and states that it would not be his (that is, the Emperor's) will to slaughter miners on whose world a Slaaneshi cult had taken root - before killing the Dark Angel he had been speaking to. Codex: Eye of Terror and the final Eye of Terror campaign newsletter ("Death By A Thousand Cuts") at least somewhat imply that while Cypher's efforts were undertaken in the name of Chaos, they ended up having a long-term net positive effect for the Imperium. Hence why I think that Cypher falls under a sort of strange category: working within Chaos for the Emperor but against what the Dark Angels have become, and being guided/aided by the Watchers (probably without him even knowing it). :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenloanne Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 And since he's moving towards Terra very slowly in a weird arc, perhaps he would be the one to kill the Emperor and cause his Reincarnation, lightning the astronomicon to such intensity as to draw in every Tyranid Hive Fleet and incinerate them in one fell swoop and causing the Khan, The Wolf King, the Lion, Corax and Rowboat Girlyman to come to Terra and starting the second Age of the Imperium and a vast march upon the Cadian Gate and beyond to the Eye of Terror and to the deaths of the Daemon Primarchs and their warhosts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lothlorienmoon Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 If the Emperor reincarnated now, I'm pretty sure he would destroy and rebuild the Imperium, because it is a complete farce. Heck, The whole Emperor is a god thing is based upon a book written by a Demon Primarch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenloanne Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 True, and I totally don't have machinations to build a WB army at all......*hiding his heresy quickly lest they find out* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Faith and belief are two, strong for a lack of a better word, feeling in 40k though so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Has there been any concrete proof that anyone outside of the Inner Circle has even seen a Watcher? And I mean not just outside of the Dark Angels, I mean lower level DA. I think that that may be part of the 'tests' to become Inner Circle. A Battle Brother may question it to himself, but anyone outside (inquisition, etc) would surely bring it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 On the one hand, I don't see why they would; "Descent of Angels" and "Fallen Angels" certainly point to them making themselves visible only to those whom they wish to be seen by. On the other, if they are invisible to all non-Inner Circle Dark Angels, then the whole "bearers of relics" theme, which stretches back quite a bit (carrying the Lion Helm for Azrael), becomes somewhat questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.