godking Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Hi there long time lurker first time poster Where did the Emperor truly fail in his treatment of the Primarchs ? Personally how the Emperor handled Angron was the biggest mistake regarding his treatment of the Primarchs that he made. None of his decisions make sense regarding Angron. Observing Angron for months but not doing any thing to intervene or at least indirectly guide him ? Not realising that Teleporting Angron away from men and women that he had fought next to for years would resulut in Angron always having a grudge against him ? The Emperor should have either killed Angron then and there or actually worked to rehabilitate Angron instead of halfassing it. In regagsds to Lorgar Curze and Mortarion the emperor has some legit reasons for handling the situation as he did but not in the handling of Angron. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 The "Decision on Angron" puzzled me too. Why don't simply order the attacking army to cease hostility. "The Imperial Army has arrived and your authority is no longer in effect." That would have been a true act of justice since the persons Angron was leading were fighting for their freedom. A "don't attack my Primarch or suffer the consequences" would have dissuaded those planetary "nobles" and would have won the trust of Angron. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3290000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 The only thing that comes to mind is that maybe the Emperor wanted Angron's homeworld to come to compliance peacefully, but it's not he has ever fought for the peaceful route before so that can't be it. And in Betrayer IIRC there was a bit where the Emperor asked Angron what he wanted to do and Angron chose to spare his homeworld so it's not like the Emperor was the one who chose to spare. It's almost as if the Emperor came to Nurcia, saw Angron as what he had become, at first was going to let the planet put him out of his misery, but then couldn't go through with it and saved Angron and was hoping that if Angron was alone with no influence from the planet below, he would change into a more, obedient(?)- no, more preferable- son. But apparently it all backfired. As far as Curze, the Emperor didn't really do anything to him. He was a product of his environment, which was Nostramo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3290009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereticus81 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I do feel sorry for ADB, Abnett, McNeill, Swallow et al. at times. They're basically fleshing out snippets of background information and when said fleshing out is done the emperor often comes across as a bit daft. They can't change it to make a bit more sense so they're doing what they can. I hope we get a book where the Emps or Malcador explain some of the decisions because, as you rightly say, some of the decisions he made are fricking stupid. However I'm sceptical of the prospect of us ever getting a book from the Emps POV, making him 'accessible' would probably lessen him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3290011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewlay Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 My interpretation is that the Emperor being the utilitarian that he was made the Primarchs to be generals and tacticians pure and simple. However when the Primarchs were transported away they were infused with the warp, causing mutations (wings, double bodies, etc), powers (farsight, controllable invisibility, etc) and a massive influx of emotions. The Emperor not knowing this, treated them as he expected them to behave, so Angorn shouldn't have been bitter because those other gladiators had no advantage of being in the crusade, Lorgar was chastised because he wasn't keeping speed, Magnus was punished for betraying orders and so on. Now this theory isn't foolproof I know, but personally I think it give a good justification as to why the Emperor treated the Primarchs as he did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3290255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I do feel sorry for ADB, Abnett, McNeill, Swallow et al. at times. They're basically fleshing out snippets of background information and when said fleshing out is done the emperor often comes across as a bit daft. They can't change it to make a bit more sense so they're doing what they can. I hope we get a book where the Emps or Malcador explain some of the decisions because, as you rightly say, some of the decisions he made are fricking stupid. However I'm sceptical of the prospect of us ever getting a book from the Emps POV, making him 'accessible' would probably lessen him. This is an important thing to note. The Horus Heresy was never meant to be extrapolated in this much detail. It comes from an era where it was okay to name your primarchs Angron because he was angry and the primarch of the Dark Angels Lionel Johnson. The Emperor's biggest mistake with Angron wasn't putting him down like a rabid dog when he found him. At the same time, a lot of the "mistakes" made by the Emperor have been invented by the Black Library authors themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3290318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oir Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I forsee it ending with a 'Just as planned' thrown in there for explanation That aside, as Brother Bewlay said, it is possible that the Emperor just completely misunderstood the thought processes of the Primarchs, and was a typical 'oblivious father'. He came in and expected their immediate loyalty and obedience and proceeded as though they would do exactly as he expected and nothing more Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3290336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Antipodes Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I forsee it ending with a 'Just as planned' thrown in there for explanation That aside, as Brother Bewlay said, it is possible that the Emperor just completely misunderstood the thought processes of the Primarchs, and was a typical 'oblivious father'. He came in and expected their immediate loyalty and obedience and proceeded as though they would do exactly as he expected and nothing more Especially since he had shown what happens when you don't toe the line as expected (queue "missing legions") Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3290356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_Dew Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 The thing with Angron is that he's one of only 2 known Primarch to not become the single leader of the planet he landed the other being Morterion and both had some resentment towards daddy too. I think the Emperor waited to see if Angron could win against his masters but when it became obvious that he couldnt the Emperor stepped in maybe hoping to win Angrons loyalty by appearing as his savior since he came close to defeat/death. With Mortarion the Emperor might have known he wouldnt have made it to his fathers manse alive and agreed to the ultimatum knowing so and playing on Mortarions honor But on the whole he failed from the beginning the Emperor is far above them as the Primarchs are above humans that that they couldnt truly understand the Emperor just like a child doesnt understand an adults way of thinking Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3290361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 The thing with Angron is that he's one of only 2 known Primarch to not become the single leader of the planet he landed the other being Morterion and both had some resentment towards daddy too. I think the Emperor waited to see if Angron could win against his masters but when it became obvious that he couldnt the Emperor stepped in maybe hoping to win Angrons loyalty by appearing as his savior since he came close to defeat/death. With Mortarion the Emperor might have known he wouldnt have made it to his fathers manse alive and agreed to the ultimatum knowing so and playing on Mortarions honor But on the whole he failed from the beginning the Emperor is far above them as the Primarchs are above humans that that they couldnt truly understand the Emperor just like a child doesnt understand an adults way of thinking The Emperor observed Angron for months he should have known that Angron would never have deserted his comrades. A ridiculous oversight by supposedly the greatest human ever . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3291030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Targhost Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Well the Emperor is like over 30k of years old.. a month or two istent that much for him and well he is a bitt abow them in mind and have a biljon other things too to atend so might be a big sad mistake there in it all.. and like Nova Dew wrote.. Just a thought.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3291045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Hmmm... He brought his planet to order with a campaign of blood and death on a truly jaw dropping scale, then left to conquer the stars with his sons. But his sons were monsters and murderers who perverted his ideals, and without him personally overseeing it his planet became an even worse hellhole than it was before he took power. Despairing and weary of existence itself, he did little more than watch as his assassin came for him, blades in hand. Maybe Kor Phereon was wrong, or (gasp!) outright lying. Maybe the Primarchs who was the Emperor's reflection, his echo, body and soul, was not the idealistic empire builder Guilliman, but the tortured, crazed, and ultimately self destructive Konrad Curze. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3291052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 They were all reflections of his body and soul. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3291062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 To be honest, I was always surprised the fanbase took to that "The Primarchs represent aspects of the Emperor's personality" idea the way they did, considering it was uttered by a somewhat untrustworthy and loathed character. But people liked it, and the other BL authors ran with it, so okay. But as Lorgar is repeatedly stated in The First Heretic to be the Primarchs who most closely resembled the Emperor physically, there must have been one Primarch who was the most like his Father mentally and in personality. And I think given the parallels between Konrad's fall and the Heresy as a whole you can argue that Primarch was the Night Haunter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3291080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Curze was a trainwreck. He had no plans. He just killed for kicks, and in his mind he was making some sort of weird point about the meaning of being a Primarch at the head of superhuman killing machines. The Emperor looked to unify humanity. He didn't exactly go into Mars and kill everyone in sight just to make a point, did he? No, he negotiated a treaty between the two. He was far more than Curze ever was or could be. Hell, Curze couldn't even control his future visions, he just spazzed out and saw stuff. Big E, from what we know, didn't do that. I think what's interesting is that in DL, Corax fears Curze because he knows that their positions could've been easily reversed. He could've been the wacko from the dark (albeit without the prophetic visions), and Curze could've been precognitive batman, if their situations were switched. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3291094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 The Emperor is nothing but a jumped up warlord anyways who was in no ways unique but perhaps the strongest and most clever of the elevated human cognoscynth warlords who have been guiding/controlling/warring over humanity throughout the 40k timelines. He was just the last man standing. Not a perfect father, not a perfect man; just a tremendous psyker with the will and ambition to dominate a galaxy and do whatever it took to bring that to fruition. I am not even sure he saw a majority of the Primarchs (if any but Horus and a few others) as his "sons" but more like creations or tools to get a job of galactic conquest finished. Wade: I think Batman would be the Emperor's need to assert control over others and their actions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3291108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Have you read "Prince of Crows"? Because that makes it crystal clear that Konrad did not "kill just for kicks" and that he was capable of more than just skinning people and eating their dogs (as he negotiated with the ruling elite of Nostromo to be named king). And for your Mars example I can give many others where the Emperor's legions brought peace and unity by the swift and merciless slaughter of all who would not bend the knee. (Shrike, Oneiros, and Calis, for starters). Also, if you think the Martian priesthood yoked themselves to Emps purely because of his charisma and intelligence, with no regard for the fact that his warships and Thunder Warriors could break their planet apart...Ha! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3291111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 The Emperor is nothing but a jumped up warlord anyways who was in no ways unique but perhaps the strongest and most clever of the elevated human cognoscynth warlords who have been guiding/controlling/warring over humanity throughout the 40k timelines. This is why he was unique. Have you read "Prince of Crows"? Because that makes it crystal clear that Konrad did not "kill just for kicks" and that he was capable of more than just skinning people and eating their dogs (as he negotiated with the ruling elite of Nostromo to be named king). And for your Mars example I can give many others where the Emperor's legions brought peace and unity by the swift and merciless slaughter of all who would not bend the knee. (Shrike, Oneiros, and Calis, for starters). Also, if you think the Martian priesthood yoked themselves to Emps purely because of his charisma and intelligence, with no regard for the fact that his warships and Thunder Warriors could break their planet apart...Ha! I oversimplified a bit, I'll admit. But Sevatar himself says in Void Stalker - Curze took the easy route for subjugation. Your last example works against your first one - Curze negotiated with the ruling elite after he'd killed and murdered his way (IIRC for 'justice') into becoming a legend. The Emperor didn't just come to Mars, stick a gun into the Fabricator General's face, and say 'join me'. He made a damn good case for being the Omnissiah that they all worshipped, and through guile and diplomatic skill he united the two worlds. The threat of force was undoubtedly there, but I think if the god you had been worshipping for the past few thousand years suddenly appeared at your doorstep, you'd be a little less worried about his guns and more awed by his mere presence. I'm not arguing that he wasn't a bloodthirsty dude. He probably was; he slaughtered his way to the top on Terra. But that was, realistically, his only choice to unify Terra. All these random barbaric warlords working together? Ha ha, no. Also - what was Curze's vision? Galactic peace? I doubt it. He had very little vision for humanity as a whole. While superficial similarities may exist b/w his father and him and they way they went about conquering planets/systems, he lacked that quality - vision. It's what set him apart from his creator. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3291397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupcan Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 i have always thought that most the things that happened during the heresy were known by big E beforehand. i mean the cabal knew what was going to happen..... like angron for example,i think he needed him to be the way he was,thats why he dumped him into the warhounds lap and left the planet in peace.....hell they even had legends that they killed angron! the big problem was magnus, big E didnt plan on what he did, magnus was supposed to be strapped on the doomchair himself i believe..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3291420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 Have you read "Prince of Crows"? Because that makes it crystal clear that Konrad did not "kill just for kicks" and that he was capable of more than just skinning people and eating their dogs (as he negotiated with the ruling elite of Nostromo to be named king). And for your Mars example I can give many others where the Emperor's legions brought peace and unity by the swift and merciless slaughter of all who would not bend the knee. (Shrike, Oneiros, and Calis, for starters). Also, if you think the Martian priesthood yoked themselves to Emps purely because of his charisma and intelligence, with no regard for the fact that his warships and Thunder Warriors could break their planet apart...Ha! Sevatar destroyed Curze's reasoning in Prince of Crows Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3291595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starblayde Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 His main problem, I think, was being too secretive and not telling them anything. Abandoning Horus to carry the Crusade on the way he did without saying why was one of the crucial factors. A lot hinged on "make no mistake", too, which Horus over-analysed. Generally he was a bad father to his twenty sons, but the Angron thing was inexcusable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3294580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 It's a question of perspective. The emperor didn't created the primarchs to get cool sons to hang out with. He already had tons of real sons. The primarch project was only an attempt to make a new race of men that would be immune to Chaos. That failed pretty badly when they got spirited away by the Chaos gods, and then, the emperor judged they would make good generals in the crusade to expand the imperium. The emperor isn't in a "I'll be at all your birthdays, son, and I'll teach you how to shave yourself" type of relationship. Yet, it's safe to say he was pretty bad at judging people... That was most likely the job of Malcador and Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3294594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Hi there long time lurker first time poster Where did the Emperor truly fail in his treatment of the Primarchs ? In the remote-controlled bombs inside their brains, bombs keyed to signs of corruption by Chaos. Or rather the lack thereof Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3294622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badaboom Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Actually, now that I think of it, there´s no mention of Angron´s fellow companions to be something else than bloodthirsty warriors with a certain respect for martial honor. It´s said that, after the escape, only the wildest and more aggressive survived. We can assume that the last survivors, the hardened veterans of months of war against a superior enemy, would be even more aggressive, and probably affected by their brain implants beyond redemption. Perhaps, Big E observed his son for months and finally decided to save him anyway, because Angron was priceless as the Primarch he was, but the other warriors were..."Dispensable". The world itself is mentioned to keep some very interesting level of technology, so peaceful compliance was stromgly preferred, and that might have been also a factor on the Emperor´s decision. Perhaps, deprived of food and other supplies they started to feed on the fallen, or were too barbaric for the Emperor to consider them of any use or to be inducted in the Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3295950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Where did the Emperor go wrong with his treatment of the Primarchs? Let us count the ways! http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/279/e/a/iaeih__well__that_was_awkward_by_wibblethefish-d5h0lw7.jpg http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/211/3/8/iaeih__the_cyclops_by_wibblethefish-d5958l3.jpg http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/195/2/8/iaeih__trust_issues_by_wibblethefish-d57938y.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270049-where-did-the-emperor-really-with-the-primarchs/#findComment-3296006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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