Veteran Sergeant Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Russ: The Emperor is keeping that maleficarum Magnus around, and you know the Emperor is also a witch. Destroy the evil Magnus, your father will understand that it's for the best. Vulkan: (show Vulkan a picture of the Petioner''s City) See that? All those suffering people? And they live right outside their ruler's palace. Bet you just want to go to that planet and liberate them. Guilliman: You know how you like well ordered and competent civil government? Take a look at the statistics of your average hive city. I bet you could do better. Corax: You fought to liberate your people from off-world dictators who used them as slaves to produce raw materials. Take a look at this Administratum dataslate regarding tithe levels. Meet the old boss, same as the new boss, right? Bet you could do better. Sanguinius: The Emperor really doesn't like mutants, so you should really do something about the red thirst before people get too freaked out. Just sign here and we can get to work fixing things. Ferrus: You know the technology you love so much? Have you seen the derp heads at the Mechanicum? Those are the sorts of people that the Emperor is putting in charge of the advances that can make things better. Bet you could do a better job. :lol:These are pretty weak. All of the ones that end with "Bet you..." are especially awful because they're based on assumptions about the Primarch's desires, and not on actual fluff. The primarchs who turned were corrupted by Chaos taking advantage of their deep and severe character flaws. Not by offering them still nonsense or playing on completely irrational fears. They had to present themselves as possessing some kind of knowledge, or power, or wisdom to have credibility. Lorgar, for example, was turned because he was emotionally shattered by being rejected by the Emprah, and went looking for answers. The Chaos gods offered him the lies he wanted to hear, and presented themselves as the true gods he was seeking, and restored his ability to believe in something. He was weak, and they were strong. On the other hand, what do the Chaos Gods offer Leman Russ? "Hi, we're supernatural dark gods, with limitless power. You should totally listen to us that the Emprah wants Magnus killed for being a malifacarum, and it won't be at all ironic if you take those orders by listening to strange supernatural forces." Come on, that's ridiculous. Russ was an attack dog. He existed solely to listen to the Emprah's commands, and went out of his way to carry out those orders to the utmost. Heck, he seemed to have, more than once, invented his own orders simply out of an anticipation of what his master wanted. However, as Betrayer showed us, even when he went off on his own, he understood what the limits of his authority were. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3292689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 indeed, + Russ did get those things whispered to him. he did not turn to chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3292700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMaster Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 There are some Primachs who would never turn traitor no matter what. I mean sitting and trying to resolve who out of Guilliman and Dorn are most likely to turn traitor is not only heretical but also also complete and utter madness. What is next, who is most likely to swear allegiance to the Imperium? Khorne or Nurgle? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3292725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 It is silly how even reasonable arguments about every Primarch being corruptable always end up with loyalist fans taking up arms on how their primarch (Guilliman) could NEVER turn. Horus fell, he was the best and greatest and most infallible of them all. They all have human emotions that can be exploited in the long run and given right circumstances everyone COULD fall. Taking a "they are in the loyalist codex!" viewpoint and applying that in hindsight - like most of us Ultra/loyalist fans seem to do, is not productive for these discussions. But yeah, Rob and, especially Dorn would likely be the hardest ones to turn - least personality to exploit. Russ would oh so easily fall to Khorne (glorious violence + hatred of psykers, the Dornian heresy has it spot on), even though he is the lap-dog of the emperor now. Vulkan would go over easy if the right amount of suffering by innocents was presented. Rob would need to see Empire being more necessary than the Emperor, he would be just the right man to save the Empire from itself - he'd be a beacon of Hope for mankind. And whoever has Hope as part of its portfolio? I wouldn't like Roboute if he was some "incorrputible no matter what" cardboard cutout of a character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3292744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 [The forces of Chaos] whispered to the Primrchs from the warp, disturbing their dreams with promises of power, appealing to their pride, their martial prowess, and their courage. No single Primarch was wholly resistant to these unspoken temptations. The character of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them failed that test. (2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 8; 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 12; similar in 6th Edition Codex Chaos SPace Marines, p. 9) The Chaos powers tried to corrupt all Primarchs. Half of them they were unable to corrupt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3292766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 no, half of them resisted long enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3292776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 [The forces of Chaos] whispered to the Primrchs from the warp, disturbing their dreams with promises of power, appealing to their pride, their martial prowess, and their courage. No single Primarch was wholly resistant to these unspoken temptations. The character of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them failed that test. (2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 8; 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 12; similar in 6th Edition Codex Chaos SPace Marines, p. 9) The Chaos powers tried to corrupt all Primarchs. Half of them they were unable to corrupt. Which clearly is a firgure of speech to say "Half the primarchs fought for Horus when the other did not". Tell me when Guilliman was tested. Then, you'll notice that Sanguinius is corrupted by Chaos (his wings), but still fought on the loyalist side. Finally, Horus wasn't "tested", no whispe but a super powerful blade that almost killed him only to be fully corrupted by a Chaos cult. The thing is, as the fluff goes, if the gods really want you in their team, you just can't say no. Horus, Mortarion and the Death Guard, the Scourge, the Crimson Slaughter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3292778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 If the Chaos Gods could corrupt everyone, they would simply do that. It's like in all those tales of the devil. The devil cannot just take you, you have to give yourself to him. Some people just wont make that bargain. If the Chaos Gods could have corrupted all of the Primarchs, they would have corrupted all of the Primarchs. But they were unable to corrupt all of them, even though they "sorely tested" them all. Horus was not turned over night by a magic blade. His downfall, as with all of the traitor Primarchs, started way back when the Gods had stolen the incubator capsules, and had manipulated and influenced them in various ways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3292786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I don't think they want to "corrupt" everyone, because everyone is already feeding them, willingly or not, so it does not really matter. I can totally picture them making only half of the legions turn just to forever break the ascendency of the imperium and plunge it into a painful agony of endless war, because that's what they enjoy (and that is what feeds them the most). Regardless, I disagree with you on the Horus topic too. The events on Davin were clearly a set up to corrupt Horus beyond redemption. Which would mean he may have stayed loyal without that trap... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3292800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Russ: The Emperor is keeping that maleficarum Magnus around, and you know the Emperor is also a witch. Destroy the evil Magnus, your father will understand that it's for the best. Vulkan: (show Vulkan a picture of the Petioner''s City) See that? All those suffering people? And they live right outside their ruler's palace. Bet you just want to go to that planet and liberate them. Guilliman: You know how you like well ordered and competent civil government? Take a look at the statistics of your average hive city. I bet you could do better. Corax: You fought to liberate your people from off-world dictators who used them as slaves to produce raw materials. Take a look at this Administratum dataslate regarding tithe levels. Meet the old boss, same as the new boss, right? Bet you could do better. Sanguinius: The Emperor really doesn't like mutants, so you should really do something about the red thirst before people get too freaked out. Just sign here and we can get to work fixing things. Ferrus: You know the technology you love so much? Have you seen the derp heads at the Mechanicum? Those are the sorts of people that the Emperor is putting in charge of the advances that can make things better. Bet you could do a better job. These are pretty weak. All of the ones that end with "Bet you..." are especially awful because they're based on assumptions about the Primarch's desires, and not on actual fluff. The primarchs who turned were corrupted by Chaos taking advantage of their deep and severe character flaws. Not by offering them still nonsense or playing on completely irrational fears. They had to present themselves as possessing some kind of knowledge, or power, or wisdom to have credibility. Lorgar, for example, was turned because he was emotionally shattered by being rejected by the Emprah, and went looking for answers. The Chaos gods offered him the lies he wanted to hear, and presented themselves as the true gods he was seeking, and restored his ability to believe in something. He was weak, and they were strong. On the other hand, what do the Chaos Gods offer Leman Russ? "Hi, we're supernatural dark gods, with limitless power. You should totally listen to us that the Emprah wants Magnus killed for being a malifacarum, and it won't be at all ironic if you take those orders by listening to strange supernatural forces." Come on, that's ridiculous. Russ was an attack dog. He existed solely to listen to the Emprah's commands, and went out of his way to carry out those orders to the utmost. Heck, he seemed to have, more than once, invented his own orders simply out of an anticipation of what his master wanted. However, as Betrayer showed us, even when he went off on his own, he understood what the limits of his authority were. golly gee? Guilliman wasn't known for advocating for good governments and strong municipal services? Vulkan and his legion aren't known for protecting innocents? Corax didn't liberate a bunch of enslaved miners and might be a tad put out by the way the Administratum used up worlds and workers? Sanguinius (in FtT) nearly gave in to Chaos when they offered a cure for the Red Thirst and Russ' bit is basically straight out of the Dornian Heresy. All you'd need is someone whispering in Russ' ear that the Emperor had made a mistake and that Magnus was up to no good and I'd bet you $50 that the Wolves would be raining hell down on Prospero. I'll admit the Ferrus bit is weak, mostly because there's all of one short story about him and there's not much character development there, but I'm pretty sure a conflict between him and the Mechanicum could be arranged to provide suitable results. Some primarchs would be easier or harder to turn of course, compare the effort required to turn Curze or Perturabo vs. Magnus or Horus. The first two were basically down for whatever while the latter two required major external manipulation. At the end of the day all the primarchs had their weak spots, which is good because there's not much virtue in saying 'no' if it's impossible to say 'yes'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3292810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMaster Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 It is silly how even reasonable arguments about every Primarch being corruptable always end up with loyalist fans taking up arms on how their primarch (Guilliman) could NEVER turn. Horus fell, he was the best and greatest and most infallible of them all. They all have human emotions that can be exploited in the long run and given right circumstances everyone COULD fall. Taking a "they are in the loyalist codex!" viewpoint and applying that in hindsight - like most of us Ultra/loyalist fans seem to do, is not productive for these discussions. But yeah, Rob and, especially Dorn would likely be the hardest ones to turn - least personality to exploit. Russ would oh so easily fall to Khorne (glorious violence + hatred of psykers, the Dornian heresy has it spot on), even though he is the lap-dog of the emperor now. Vulkan would go over easy if the right amount of suffering by innocents was presented. Rob would need to see Empire being more necessary than the Emperor, he would be just the right man to save the Empire from itself - he'd be a beacon of Hope for mankind. And whoever has Hope as part of its portfolio? I wouldn't like Roboute if he was some "incorrputible no matter what" cardboard cutout of a character. Now tell me how the four gods of Chaos would swear their eternal allegiance to The Imperium. How would this go down? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3292834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 It is silly how even reasonable arguments about every Primarch being corruptable always end up with loyalist fans taking up arms on how their primarch (Guilliman) could NEVER turn. Horus fell, he was the best and greatest and most infallible of them all. They all have human emotions that can be exploited in the long run and given right circumstances everyone COULD fall. Taking a "they are in the loyalist codex!" viewpoint and applying that in hindsight - like most of us Ultra/loyalist fans seem to do, is not productive for these discussions. But yeah, Rob and, especially Dorn would likely be the hardest ones to turn - least personality to exploit. Russ would oh so easily fall to Khorne (glorious violence + hatred of psykers, the Dornian heresy has it spot on), even though he is the lap-dog of the emperor now. Vulkan would go over easy if the right amount of suffering by innocents was presented. Rob would need to see Empire being more necessary than the Emperor, he would be just the right man to save the Empire from itself - he'd be a beacon of Hope for mankind. And whoever has Hope as part of its portfolio? I wouldn't like Roboute if he was some "incorrputible no matter what" cardboard cutout of a character. Now tell me how the four gods of Chaos would swear their eternal allegiance to The Imperium. How would this go down? Couldn't resist the challenge Nurgle recognising the Emp as the Lord of Stagnation, Tzeench for recognising the Emp's talent at constantly changing his plans, Khorne recognising that the Imperium kills for and dies for the Emp and Slanesh cause she's easy.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 . On the other hand, what do the Chaos Gods offer Leman Russ? "Hi, we're supernatural dark gods, with limitless power. You should totally listen to us that the Emprah wants Magnus killed for being a malifacarum, and it won't be at all ironic if you take those orders by listening to strange supernatural forces.". Yes, that would be almost as silly as the Wolves charging off to chastise the Thousand Sons for breaking the ban on psyker powers while having dozens of psyk using Wolf and Rune Priests OH WAIT. Truth is...just as there was honor and nobility within each of the Traitors, there was darkness within each Loyalist. Trying to say "Primarch X was always going to fall" or "Primarch Y would never fall" cheapens both the tragedy of those who turned and the heroism of those who stayed loyal. All of the Allfathers sons had a choice. Some chose...poorly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMaster Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 It is silly how even reasonable arguments about every Primarch being corruptable always end up with loyalist fans taking up arms on how their primarch (Guilliman) could NEVER turn. Horus fell, he was the best and greatest and most infallible of them all. They all have human emotions that can be exploited in the long run and given right circumstances everyone COULD fall. Taking a "they are in the loyalist codex!" viewpoint and applying that in hindsight - like most of us Ultra/loyalist fans seem to do, is not productive for these discussions. But yeah, Rob and, especially Dorn would likely be the hardest ones to turn - least personality to exploit. Russ would oh so easily fall to Khorne (glorious violence + hatred of psykers, the Dornian heresy has it spot on), even though he is the lap-dog of the emperor now. Vulkan would go over easy if the right amount of suffering by innocents was presented. Rob would need to see Empire being more necessary than the Emperor, he would be just the right man to save the Empire from itself - he'd be a beacon of Hope for mankind. And whoever has Hope as part of its portfolio? I wouldn't like Roboute if he was some "incorrputible no matter what" cardboard cutout of a character. Now tell me how the four gods of Chaos would swear their eternal allegiance to The Imperium. How would this go down? Couldn't resist the challenge Nurgle recognising the Emp as the Lord of Stagnation, Tzeench for recognising the Emp's talent at constantly changing his plans, Khorne recognising that the Imperium kills for and dies for the Emp and Slanesh cause she's easy.... [*Stands up, salutes and applauds*] The part about Slaanesh is gold!, Well done :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Legatus: Yes, yes, very good. *hands Legatus a lolly* You want to lessen our glorious Primarch Guilliman by making a cardboard cutout of out him. Good for you, but that's something I don't want to see. It's people like you (and Ward) who give the ultra-haters way too much ammunition. I know Lord Guilliman was a fine man, but he was also still a Man, with weaknesses and can be used as a real character. Anwyay... It's ironic how many virtues of the Chaos Gods Emperor/Imperium already personify. Stagnation/carrion god angle for Nurgle, the scheming and plotting and politics for Tzeentch, the mindless butchering by the armies of the Imperium for Khorne. Only poor Slaanesh seems to be left out of the Official Government prorgam, but I'd be willing to bet some slaaneshian antics are happening when meetings are held behind closed doors. At the end of the day, Imperium isn't much different from the Chaos Gods. With a bit less tentacles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 . On the other hand, what do the Chaos Gods offer Leman Russ? "Hi, we're supernatural dark gods, with limitless power. You should totally listen to us that the Emprah wants Magnus killed for being a malifacarum, and it won't be at all ironic if you take those orders by listening to strange supernatural forces.". Yes, that would be almost as silly as the Wolves charging off to chastise the Thousand Sons for breaking the ban on psyker powers while having dozens of psyk using Wolf and Rune Priests OH WAIT. -Rune priests aren't part of the librarius program - AGAIN (loophole I know) -they are used for recruiting new members, drawing runes, making totems, controlling wulfen etc. -disbanding them would be ********* for SW -they fought alongside SoS/Custodians on Prospero Is it so hard to belive that Russ/SW sniffed the taint in TS who were given "no cooldown, no mutation" option straight from you know who? Also to think Russ would join chaos, when he fought against taint is dumbest thing on earth.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Also to think Russ would join chaos, when he fought against taint is dumbest thing on earth.... Translation: hurr, durr, loyalists are best and 40K is black & white. :( Russ going over to Khorne accidentally is extremely plausible. He's the easiest of the loyalist primarchs to believably turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Also to think Russ would join chaos, when he fought against taint is dumbest thing on earth.... Translation: hurr, durr, loyalists are best and 40K is black & white. Russ going over to Khorne accidentally is extremely plausible. He's the easiest of the loyalist primarchs to believably turn. Right after Guiliman...who goes to fifth chaos god named "Boredom" ... Also when you say Russ would be first to go - your PoV is black and white... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I say Lion,Dorn,Russ & Ferrus are ones who are hardest to corrupt...rest of them...not so much... Also Lion thought that Guiliman was an idiot, so maybe that is the ticket for chaos? Maybe they can corrupt him through logistics? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Legatus: Yes, yes, very good. *hands Legatus a lolly* You want to lessen our glorious Primarch Guilliman by making a cardboard cutout of out him. Good for you, but that's something I don't want to see. It's people like you (and Ward) who give the ultra-haters way too much ammunition. I know Lord Guilliman was a fine man, but he was also still a Man, with weaknesses and can be used as a real character. *looks back over own posts* Hm, you may be confusing me with someone else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 @Legatus you are diminishing Guiliman and making him better in the same time( wink,wink,nod,nod:-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I did nothing of the sort. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 That's why it is funny :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Well, I guess with my history, every comment can be seen as an automatic endorsement of Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines in some way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratboy1664 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I think you have to consider how and when each loyalist Primarch was tested by the chaos gods. Ferrus was offered a seat at the highest table of the Heresy by his closest brother at the very begining when the tide could have gone either way and he still refused. Sanguinius on the other hand was offered the position of second in command by Horus himself, his most trusted brother, but this was during the last desperate gambit of the rebels but he still refused even though he knew it would mean his death. As far as I know I can't remember any other loyalist primarchs loyalty being tested as severely as these two, and we know these two DID remain loyal and thus passed the test. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/3/#findComment-3293512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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