Kol Saresk Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Vet Sergeant, nope I haven't still waiting for it to get to the store here. Your LGS didn't have it? Serious question because mine did so it was awesome timing for me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3296844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 and "Fear to Tread" humanizes Sangy a good bit. saying he has no flaws is not exaclty accurate nowadays. WLK I dunno, you might be right. Nothing sticks out at me, but I didn't like that one at all, so I probably spaced out during the audio book at times, lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3296845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 To be honest, I think when people referred to Sanguinius as "perfect"(or without flaw), I don't think they were being literal. Although some of the more overzealous characters and fans would probably glaze over that and say that it is literal. Instead, I think they mean that he is "beyond peer as well as supremely beautiful" despite the rather glaring fact that he is a mutant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3296856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I guess he was a mutant. A mutant that was really really, ridiculously good looking, and could fly. I mean, he wasn't a teenage shelled reptile who had to hide in the sewers to avoid being persecuted by the very world he was trying to save. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3296867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 and "Fear to Tread" humanizes Sangy a good bit. saying he has no flaws is not exaclty accurate nowadays. WLK I dunno, you might be right. Nothing sticks out at me, but I didn't like that one at all, so I probably spaced out during the audio book at times, lol. It was a tough read to be honest, and I doubt I could listen to it... while there is no (or atleast I didnt catch any) glaring flaw, he is human enough in that the flaws still exist. if anybody is braver than I, they can plunge into the book again looking for specific instances. If nobody volunteers, I'll volunteer when I have free time. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3296915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I'm pretty sure self-recrimination could be considered a flaw. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3296920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 @Veteran Sergeant I agree with your points. RG was Emperor all but in name and called the shots after Emperor's death not out of pomp but out of duty. What i said was he couldn't outright declare himself Emperor though. Not that he wanted that but he didn't have such window of opportunity. As for Sanguinius having no flaws, i don't care, he isn't Mary Sue. Flaw checking and Mary Sue branding became simply idiotic these days. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3296991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Sanguinius is the very definition of Mary Sue IMHO.... And people saying that his flaw was being a x-men? Seriously? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Sanguinius is the very definition of Mary Sue IMHO.... I don't think 'Mary Sue' means what you think it means... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I know what Mary Sue is ty very much...and my opinion stands... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Well, if you know what a Mary Sue is and you still think Sanguinius is one, then justify your position. What makes him a Mary Sue? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 No, his flaw wasn't being an "X-man"(although those guys are so flawed and messed up in the head that I'd hardly say they are perfect). His flaw is the fact that he virtually hates himself because his Legion is plagued by the Red Thirst and because of that, he is actually rather insecure. Just looking at say, U.S. society, we can see that insecurities can allow a person to be preyed upon by all sorts of things from rapists to serial killers to abusive partners to wasting money on drugs and useless self-help books. And we see something similar happen. Horus offers him the chance for a cure, Sanguinius goes in without even blinking. By the time he accepts that the Nephilim aren't behind the state of the Signus Cluster, so many of his Legion(both Astartes and mortals) are already dead. To you, that might be Mary Sue. But to someone like me, Sanguinius is a perfect example of how insecurity can get your buddies killed in a battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Sanguinius is the very definition of Mary Sue IMHO.... And people saying that his flaw was being a x-men? Seriously? Mary Sue is a controversial term with little to no consensus about it. For me MS is a badly written character who demolishes the setting with his hyper competency. So Sanguinius doesn't fit there. Being a second best primarch with angelic character and bearing isn't a case for MS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 His every major flaw is somewhat noble He hates himself because his legion has a flaw? This is a flaw? Being noble angel parent? I mean does he have one genuine human/duchebag flaw (like most of his brothers)? Aslo there is a one guy who is really tormented by his legion state and his name is Corvus Corax.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 He flaws are noble? How is being insecure noble? He isn't an author insert, he isn't overpowered nor does he possess implausibly/inexplicably good skills and he ins't invulnerable or liked by everyone worth mentioning. So, what makes him a Sue? Just because you don't like him or how he's characterised, that doesn't make him a Sue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Being noble is pretty retarded, in the setting. You get gunned down or backstabbed by people who aren't as noble as you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Agree with Peter - I find it hard to love a character who doesn't have "any dirty human flaw"... Maybe he is not a Mary Sue to a full extent - but very close in becoming one.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Olisredan - name me one primarch who isn't insecure (except Angron)? Even damn Horus contemplates in "Warmaster" his decisions! Also setting showed how angels end their stories in the grimdark of the 30k (like Vesper said)... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Olisredan - name me one primarch who isn't insecure (except Angron)? Even damn Horus contemplates in "Warmaster" his decisions! Also setting showed how angels end their stories in the grimdark of the 30k (like Vesper said)... Horus, Alpharius, Gulliman, the Khan, Russ and Mortarion. EDIT: IIRC, didn't Sanguinius get killed by his most beloved brother? Also, since when is insecurity noble? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 You said: His every major flaw is somewhat noble I'm asking you to quantify that statement. The burden of proof is on you. I also fail to see how Vesper's statement helps your case that Sangy was a Sue. Being noble in and of itself isn't Sue material either. But, if you wish me to name primarchs that don't seem insecure; The current iteration of Alpharius (and Omegon) seems like a good answer - gone are the days where they are forever measuring themselves against the Ultramarines. Or how about Vulkan? Or Ferrus Manus? Neither of these two seem insecure to me either. Or Dorn? He wasn't insecure (although he did exhibit a reckless tendancy once the Emperor bit the dirt). What about the Khan? His limited portayal and references so far don't leave much derive a statement from, however he cannot be ascribed to be insecure, either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Alpharious & Omegon aren't insecure? LOL - they still don't know who is where and what are they fightning for.... Dorn? You didn't read "the Crimson fist" I guess? The rest of them are no so much fluffy so we don't know much but it is dumb to even think they don't have their doubts and fears... And who even said that being insecure is noble? I'm saying having fears and feeling guilty for your sons is a sign of nobility and care...I'mean golly gee.... Aa I posted, even Horus has second thoughts (listen "warmaster"again),about brothers on his side... He flaws are noble? How is being insecure noble? Aha this is what you said - I said something different, please don't use that kind of rhetoric on me.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Okay, let's get back to what is the nub of the issue: You assert Sanguinius is a Mary Sue. If you can demonstrate that he is indeed, inarguably a Sue, then I'll concede. Remember you'll need to provide evidence (quotes) demonstrating he's overpowered and that he possesses implausibly/inexplicably good skills. We'll ignore the fact that he isn't an author insert, thereby nullifying any claim to him being a Sue in the first place and we'll ignore other criteria for now - just find me references to what makes him a Sue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Is he one of the best fighters in the IoM (top 3)? Is he was to be a warmaster ? Is he the goody-goodiest primarch of them all? Does he have a one duchebag feat? Is he a psyker who saw himself in the future ""you know how"? Does he look like an Angel who has freaking wings? *this is the best* Does he have some kind of super cool dark secret about his legion? Did he became saint and a martyr after his death? I'll buy you a keg of beer if you name me one dirty, human, dishonest thing about him.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I agree with Peter a little. Horus-Indecisiveness at being Warmaster (anyone would be other than a Mary Sue) huge ego and ambition Lion- Super Secretive and a trusting oaf at times. Russ-Acts without thinking at times Perturabo-super angry dude who took a not so antagonistic comment from Dorn to creating a huge one sided rivialry leading to hate. Magnus-Inflated ego and sense of worth Night Lord-ignoble Alpharius-two brothers torn, basically arguing with himself. Mortarion-Jealousy, gives in to the dark side for salvation Khan- Ferrus- Feeling of inadequacy leads to rashness Vulkan-self doubt Dorn- seriously has inadequacy issues Guillimen- Hes perfect in every way...yawn. However BL is showing that he might be quick to write off the Emperor take it upon himself the position of Kingmaker etc.. Lorgar-Inadequacy causes him to bring on the gods of Chaos and the Heresy Angron- crazy brain Corax-unstable after the loss of his legion Fulgrim-perfection leads him to a road of ruin Sanguinius- is presented a tragic noble character. There is not a hint of personality problems in him. I don't attribute the Red Thirst and the Black Rage to his character so much. Yes bad things happen to him but he remains pure and good and is shown to be beautiful, wise, intelligent etc. So while he has genetic issues, hes a great guy. and in the 30k-40k world of shades of grey hes really the -most- Mary Sue-ish character. I think that that that comparison is a bit strong, however. He is suppose to be a tragic character. He is not perfect. Yet, he is portrayed as not having personality flaws. Something that I think all the other Primarchs are. Physical? yes but even that is a beautiful mutation one everyone respects. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 So I take it you're not willing to go and find material that supports your stance? Really? Is he one of the best fighters in the IoM (top 3)? He was a primarch, which automatically puts him in the 'one of the best fighters in the Imperium' category alongside his brothers and the Emperor. Was he in the top 3 or considered to be? I don't recall there being material explicitly stating as such but if you have read it somewhere, I'd like to see a quote and a reference, please. Is he was to be a warmaster ? Iirc, Horus assured Sanguinius he deserved the title more than he did (as mentioned in FtT) and I do believe Guilliman had similar thoughts. Was he going to be the Warmaster? We don't know if he was even considered. Again, if you have material to the contrary, please quote and reference it. Is he the goody-goodiest primarch of them all? He was noted for his likeability and his charisma, iirc. Please clarify what exactly you mean by "goody-goodiest". Does he have a one duchebag feat? Are you asking if he did anything 'bad'? Depending on your point of view, killing your own sons might count. Is he a psyker who saw himself in the future ""you know how"? If you're asking if he had foresight, then yes, he did. It isn't a unique trait - Curze had it - and being a psyker is far from unique too. Does he look like an Angel who has freaking wings? Yes. And? Vulkan looked kinda Satanic. So what? The whole wing thing was a result of the warp mutating his body as the Chaos Gods took him from the Emperor and his casket was cast into the warp. It might be a kooky story but it's a perfectly valid reason for him to sport wings. The warp mutates. What's new? *this is the best* Does he have some kind of super cool dark secret about his legion? Ignoring the rhetoric there, yes, his Legion did have a flaw that they kept a secret. So did the Thousand Sons. The Word Bearers also kept a pretty big secret for a while; that they were acting in the interests of the Chaos Gods and were working to turn others to their cause. And? Did he became saint and a martyr after his death? Indeed he did - exactly because of the circumstances revolving around his death. Had any other primarch been in his place (say, Dorn or the Khan), they would have received the same treatment. I'll buy you a keg of beer if you name me one dirty, human, dishonest thing about him.... Sorry, but I don't like beer (cider is more my thing) and he doesn't have to be "dirty" or "dishonest" to not be a Sue. Being a Sue requires inexplicable skills and abilities that the character would not normally have. As his skills and abilities have explanations, I don't get why you still assert that he's a Mary Sue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270050-primarch-who-was-least-likey-to-be-corrupted/page/6/#findComment-3297167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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