Primarch who was least likey to be corrupted ?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 No wonder he believes the Imperium betrayed him.

 

 

Curze forgot to watch TDKR. He would've gotten hella statues. Cool statues, too.

[Kol Saresk]

Curze would've made a cool Bane.........

[Wade Garrett]

That's what I get for going strictly from memory instead of cracking my copy of Shadows of Treachery to get it word perfect.

 

Sorry, it was an honest mistake and not a deliberate attempt to sling mud at Rogal.

[Kol Saresk]

Still, the fact that Rogal Dorn would even consider the fact that he would agree with Horus' motivation speaks volumes.......

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I am surprised at the lack of conviction that Jonson would be one of the most incorruptible.

 

Lets look at the early life of Jonson. For starters, he landed on a Chaos tainted planet where he grew up with no positive influence to lead him down a path that would see him remain untainted, yet, through all of this, he emerges not only completely untainted but then proceeds to work his way up The Order and lead a planet-wide crusade to destroy the taint of Chaos, or, at least, the visible elements of that taint. When the Emperor himself arrives on Caliban he does not destroy Jonson (as, surely, he would had Jonson been tainted) implying either the Emperor cannot always sense taint, unlikely, or Jonson is not corrupted.

 

Jonson is not caught up in his own pride or feelings of self-important. From when he starts learning human etiquette and belief structures he is taught the duty of a Knight, the loyalty of a Knight. His entire being, and that of his Legion, his entire life, is governed by a concept of duty and loyalty to his liege-lord.

 

For these reasons, and many more, despite his secretive nature, I think he would have been one of the hardest to corrupt - in fact has so far proved that hard to corrupt despite drawing the attentions of Chaos.

[Kol Saresk]

Well technically Luther was an initial positive influence who only later fell to Chaos due to feelings of abandonment and neglect and possibly even a sense of betrayal.

 

But ultimately, it is his paranoia and the fact he is in league with the Watchers(let's face it, the puritan Dark Angels are xeno-lovers) is probably what is keeping him off the list. The paranoia has already caused him to refuse to join the Loyalists he came into contact with so at the moment, he is basically following the brilliant plan of "Frag you all, I'll fix this myself!" While still being under the guidance of xenos.

 

Meanwhile we have Curze who did have no positive influence, did what he thought was right, did everything he could to turn every planet into the perfect model of Imperial efficiency(let's face it, every single planet in which his influence was felt was very obedient about obeying laws) and yet plagued by visions of the coming Heresy with no one believing him and one brother in particular provoking a fight with him. We have no evidence of warp taint in Curze, just as there is no evidence of warp taint in the Lion or Corax. But no one would ever suggest Curze as "incorruptible"(not even me) simply because the man had lost all of his marbles to the point he held conversations with dead people! And his bedchambers could scare the crap out of Lorgar.

[Augustus]

The Emperor cannot sense taint or he ignores it for his own reasons. Kor Phaeron, Erebus, possibly Typhus, the 40 years or so Lorgar was romping around in the name of Chaos prior to the Heresy.

[Kol Saresk]

I doubt that since he was able to look John Grammaticus in the eye and see him for exactly what he was and to decide to make him one of his "confidants," which only failed because John suffered his first death the next day. So he could definitely see into a person. The question is the range and whether or not it requires a Line of Sight.

 

But more relevant to that would be "How long can one play with the warp before he is invariably tainted?" Is it a matter of personal will? Or is there a time limit? Can one play with the warp and never be tainted, like the Grey Knights supposedly do?

[Billuriye]

Well technically Luther was an initial positive influence who only later fell to Chaos due to feelings of abandonment and neglect and possibly even a sense of betrayal.

 

But ultimately, it is his paranoia and the fact he is in league with the Watchers(let's face it, the puritan Dark Angels are xeno-lovers) is probably what is keeping him off the list. The paranoia has already caused him to refuse to join the Loyalists he came into contact with so at the moment, he is basically following the brilliant plan of "Frag you all, I'll fix this myself!" While still being under the guidance of xenos.

 

Meanwhile we have Curze who did have no positive influence, did what he thought was right, did everything he could to turn every planet into the perfect model of Imperial efficiency(let's face it, every single planet in which his influence was felt was very obedient about obeying laws) and yet plagued by visions of the coming Heresy with no one believing him and one brother in particular provoking a fight with him. We have no evidence of warp taint in Curze, just as there is no evidence of warp taint in the Lion or Corax. But no one would ever suggest Curze as "incorruptible"(not even me) simply because the man had lost all of his marbles to the point he held conversations with dead people! And his bedchambers could scare the crap out of Lorgar.

Lion being resistant to Chaotic influence has its merit according to Mr. Bowden. He said somewhere that he must have possessed singular force of will to overcome what his crappy homeworld threw at him. He's the only Primarch who was on the list yet didn't turn. Also Curze was tainted in the later stages of his life, again according to same writer. It's more subtle influence though. He didn't embrace the powers but they made to his brain nonetheless.

[Wade Garrett]

Where did ADB state that?

 

Because I for one see little difference in the young "I just skinned your wife and kids with this very knife" Curze we saw in Prince of Crows and "My throne room shall be made of faces" Curze at the end.

[Kol Saresk]

 

*Snip

 

I don't recall saying the Lion was under the influence of Chaos. What I do recall saying is that he is under the influence of the xenos known as the Watchers in the Dark. IIRC, the latest reference to that is The Lion.

 

I can't say that I recall A D-B saying that Curze was influenced by Chaos. Not saying he didn't, just that I don't remember it. Although I do remember it being an allegation made by Krieg Acerbus, who was written by a completely different author. And like I said, just because there is no reliable evidence showing that he was corrupted by Chaos, I still wouldn't put him on that list simply because he is insane.

[Wade Garrett]

The Night Haunter doesn't get Warp Tainted.

The Warp gets Night Haunter tainted.

[depthcharge12]

See now this discussion can be turned either way just like psychologists and writers of our time: does society enhance or corrupt us? Primarchs, who share the same human emotions that we do but in different capacities, are victims of their environment and have their own views of humanity and where it's supposed to go...just like Lucifer and God if you are of that religious inclination...are those that you are raised above meant to be protected or enslaved?

 

Curse is a victim of his but unlike the Lion his soul is bleeding because of the actions he decides to take and sees no hope for redemption for humanity and thus justifies his murder.

 

However I am curious as to what the Lion and Curze said to each other in savage weapons (it might be in another book I haven't read). I love the lines overheard between the two about them sharing the same childhood lacking civilization and their doubts.

 

The Lion sees some flaws in his brothers (except when he gives the siege weapons to Peturabo - d'oh) and recognizes the humanity in them but sees his duty towards helping humanity as muddied as he doesn't know what is in store for his marines in the future (how can weapons so savage...) and thus guarded and hidden towards others.

 

I might venture that the Lion and his sons are the most loyal (they seek to purge their stain absolutely) because not only do they recognize their flaws but seek to recompense for them rather than hiding them in vanity or replacing it with metal gears. It might not fit in your schema of uncorruptable but I believe that the Lion understood corruption where he saw it and seeked to dismantle it whenever possible (metaphor of the warp animals on Caliban and trying to flush them out and destroy them as they hampered humanity's expansion and survival)

 

Fwiw depthcharge12

[Kol Saresk]

Except that as far as I am aware, the Hunt is something the Dark Angels have taken upon themselves, not an order from the Lion. The new DA Codex might say something different but it still falls under being a 40k view looking to a 30k event in the history of a Chapter/Legion that has spent the last ten thousand years constantly hiding and rewriting their history to the point that only a select few have even the smallest glimmer of an idea what happened.

 

The biggest problem is that the Lion has been approached by Loyalist Forces. Now, since he was securing those Siege Weapons between Istvaan III and Istvaan V so he knew the Death Guard were Traitors. Since he knew Perturabo had turned, he also should have known that the Iron Hands were still loyal. And yet when the Ultramarines and the Iron Hands ask for aid, he basically gives them the finger. He refused to trust virtually everyone. And like I said, at the moment he is taking guidance from xenos. Part of being corruptible means accepting guidance from someone you are not supposed to. He is accepting guidance from a being that the Imperial Truth says to exterminate. He is as corruptible as Curze and any other Primarch is.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

With those Iron Hand forces, the reason for his distrust is made clear: without their Primarch he has no idea if they still serve the Emperor. It doesn't matter if they are on Horus' side, nor does it matter if the Death Guard Legion is on Horus' side. What he sees in front of him is two strike forces, no Primarchs, no clue as to who is actually on the same side as him. As far as he is concerned his side is those who wholeheartedly serve the Emperor.

 

Likewise with his refusal to obey the summons of Guillieman. It is not only that he distrusts Guillieman, he merely considers his authority equal to his own: ie: less than the Emperor, less than Horus. Sure, he also is suspicious of Guillieman's ulterior motives, probably because they involve crossing the entire of the galaxy, away from Terra and Caliban. In his position, I, too, would be a little suspicious. If we recall, he has already seen Horus, supposedly the incorruptible favourite son fall with 4 Legions. Then another four Legions fell which no-one expected. Thats 8 out of 18 Legions, a heck of a lot, if those 8 can fall, why not 9? 10? 11? 12?

 

As for the 'Watchers', let us examine their role in Caliban folklore. The watchers guide, advise, appear in the dark times. They are mystic and fill Caliban lore, as far as he is concerned, they are not merely Xenos but something greater, something he listens to the same as he does his duty to the Emperor, waveringly and with determination and dedication. His duty as a Knight does not make him trusting, but makes him loyal to the core in his service to the Emperor. He is the loyal antithesis to Guillieman. Where Roboute is loyal to the Emperor's ideals, the idea of the Imperium and this leads him to forge the Imperium Secundus idea, Jonson is loyal to the man, to the Emperor himself. Not the ideal, but the ruler. 

[Kol Saresk]

Actually the Lion was already in the Eastern Fringe fighting the Thramas Crusade. Ultramar was basically right next door. Those Iron Hands? They were allied to Guilliman. IIRC the dialogue correctly, between Savage Weapons and The Lion, it is implied that the Lion had a chat with Guilliman and as such was aware of his intentions.

 

And that's the point, the Watchers are to the Lion what the Old Faith of Colchis was to Lorgar: an outside source of influence that could lead to what the Imperium would consider "corruption."

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Actually the Lion was already in the Eastern Fringe fighting the Thramas Crusade. Ultramar was basically right next door. Those Iron Hands? They were allied to Guilliman. IIRC the dialogue correctly, between Savage Weapons and The Lion, it is implied that the Lion had a chat with Guilliman and as such was aware of his intentions.

 

And that's the point, the Watchers are to the Lion what the Old Faith of Colchis was to Lorgar: an outside source of influence that could lead to what the Imperium would consider "corruption."

 

Fair points, I assume that Jonson just disagreed with Guillieman, presumably considering him some Horus mk 2. Remember, at this stage, he ius unaware of the Chaos influence on his brothers.

 

As for the watchers, at the end of The Lion, he seems to disagree with them over what he should be doing when they ask him 'even if it costs you your Legion?' and he replies 'yes, even if it costs me my Legion'.

 

While he takes advice, he is still able to reject it.

[Augustus]

I doubt that since he was able to look John Grammaticus in the eye and see him for exactly what he was and to decide to make him one of his "confidants," which only failed because John suffered his first death the next day. So he could definitely see into a person. The question is the range and whether or not it requires a Line of Sight.

 

But more relevant to that would be "How long can one play with the warp before he is invariably tainted?" Is it a matter of personal will? Or is there a time limit? Can one play with the warp and never be tainted, like the Grey Knights supposedly do?

 

Then the Emperor ignored the taint for reasons of his own. Interesting either way. 

[Kol Saresk]

Technically John Grammaticus wasn't "tainted" yet. If you recall, that was his first life. He didn't meet the cabal until after his first death. There was no "taint" to ignore. I can't seem to find my copy of Legion at the moment but it is one of the earlier conversations between John Grammaticus and the Cabal in which he has a flashback to when he met the Emperor and how the Emperor offered to let him join in His plan and Grammaticus saw just how bloodthirsty the Emperor really was.

 

EDIT:

@Brother-Sergeant Bohemond: That is the impression given. I know at least in Savage Weapons when he first receives the summons, the Lion comments "It doesn't seem Horus is the only one who thinks he should inherit the Imperium." Or something to that effect. I seem to be having trouble finding my books at the moment but it is like the very last line of the short story. And IIRC, he still holds this view in The Lion.

 

I don't recall, disagreement with the Watchers so much as they were affirming his convictions, that he is willing to do whatever it takes to the point it costs him his Legion. I could be entirely wrong though, like I said I seem to be having trouble finding my books so I can neither confirm nor deny.

 

On the note of rejecting advice, that is true of everyone. Lorgar has seen the Ten Thousand Futures. And yet he believes that some of them will never come to pass because while they are possibilities of what might have happened, the present will not allow them to happen. Meanwhile, Horus and Erebus are ignoring Lorgar's advice and are attempting to corrupt Sanguinius anyways. So even the Traitors can ignore given advice, even when it comes from the "Prophet of the Gods."

 

EDIT Secundus: Okay, i found my books. Let's see, for Legion, I was a little off the setting. It was a flasshback, but the "conversation with the cabal" bit was just before. The relevant quote is:

 

"'You have a fine mind, John,' he said, without having to ask Grammaticus his name. 'We should talk and consider the options available to beings like us.'"

 

Now, I don't know how the whole Perpetual thing works so Grammaticus may or may not have been a Perpetual at the time of this meeting(clarification from the publisher please?) but like I said, there was no interaction with the Cabal yet so that "influence", or "taint", was yet to be present.

 

Let's see, in the case of The Lion, you are right. He goes into a monologue saying that he would rather see the Imperium and the Astartes destroyed through self-annihilation before someone replaced the Emperor. And then there is the quote:

 

"'No, it is too important,' said the primarch. 'Even if what you say is true, I cannot return to Caliban yet. Come what may, I have to stop Horus and Guilliman.'

 

The small figure bowed its head, and the Lion did the same, his whisper full of sorrow.

 

'Yes, even if it costs me my Legion."

 

But on the page before, he does agree with the figure by saying "You are right, that would not be helpful." concerning on what to do about Curze and the Thramas Crusade/Genocide/Persecution.

[DarthMarko]

Actually IMHO Lion didn't trust anyone (part with the IH shocked me good), but this doesn't make him less loyal to Empy, but IMHO he had a hidden agenda....What !? Who the hell knows...

[Kol Saresk]

I'm not saying it made him less loyal. It's obvious from The Lion that he believes the only person who should be the Emperor is the Emperor. But it is also obvious that he has an external influence from a source that the Imperium says to wipe out on sight: Xenos. It may not make him less loyal, but it does make him "corruptible" much in a similar, but nowhere near extensive, situation as Magnus consorting with the warp. Again, the two situations are different and Magnus' is much more extensive. But both believed that what they were doing was in service to the Emperor and both were doing something the Emperor forbade. The difference is that the Lion may do some good yet, and he hasn't been caught in the act.