Question about Purifiers

[Sanguinary Noob]

Hi everyone, so I'm pretty new to the Bolter and Chainsword, and to 40k in general. I was looking at starting up a grey knights purifier army because i like the fluff about them completely incorruptible and the purest of the pure. I want to run purifiers with incinerators, but every single list I've come across has opted for 4 psycannons. I was looking at purifiers with Crowe for a small fluffy army but no one seems to do that. So my question is, are incinerators any good to take, or does everyone just max out on psycannons on everything?

[Gentlemanloser]

Incinerators don't help you pop Tanks/Dreads, while Psycaanons also have the same range as SB, keeping your threat range of up to 24".

 

Plus cleansing flame deals with Hordes.

 

Why do you want to take Incinerators?

[Brother Bobert]

Incinerators are great against demons. Str6 make it wounding on 2s against most models, tag on the fact that get to reroll 1s against demons for hitting and wounds makes almost all incinerator hits count as wounds, I a had a squad of 10 purifiers pile out of a storm raven to hit both a squad of flamers and screamers dealing something like 15 wounds to each before counting the exta wounds on the flamers from the storm bolters.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you're in Template Range of Daemons, then you can just storm bolter then to death. As you're steam rolling your opponent (See the SR example above. The typical Flamer/Screamer list has nothing to touch flyers).

 

The only time the much faster Daemons should be in Template range, is when they're coming to Flame you.

 

And Purifiers die in droves, like all marines do to Flamers. They're just more Expensive.

 

Hell, I'd even go fo far as to recommend Psilencers over Incinerators if you're aiming to kill Daemons (and Psilencers suck!).

[Sanguinary Noob]

I was thinking of taking purifiers with incinerators because I like the fluff behind them cleansing everything with incinerators and their azure flames. I'm going to mostly play against my friend playing a mostly infantry Salamanders army. Plus I was thinking of the horror that would be Crowe and 10 purifiers with 4 incinerators in a land raider redeemer for casual games. Not the best idea but probably pretty fun. I do agree that psilencers seem like they suck though.

[Enzephalon]

I was thinking of taking purifiers with incinerators because I like the fluff behind them cleansing everything with incinerators and their azure flames. I'm going to mostly play against my friend playing a mostly infantry Salamanders army. Plus I was thinking of the horror that would be Crowe and 10 purifiers with 4 incinerators in a land raider redeemer for casual games. Not the best idea but probably pretty fun. I do agree that psilencers seem like they suck though.

I'm sorry to rain on your parade, but you can't put Crowe inside of that Raider since he is not able to join squads.

He can ride alone though.

[Sanguinary Noob]

Oh.... Well now he just seems completely useless other than making purifiers troops.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yup.

 

He's known as the 150 point Purifier Tax for a reason. ;)

[Sanguinary Noob]

So would it be better just to have a purgation squad filled with incinerators instead? I saw in the 6th edition FAQ that when you use their special rule astral aim, the enemy unit doesn't get the 4+ cover from incinerators.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you're doing it for the fluff, do it!

 

You can always Krak Grenade AV12 anyway! (Or hit it with a Hammer!)

 

But if you're asking about Incinerators or Psycannons. Psycannons hands down. The only Incinerator I'd want to use is a Heavy Incinerator on an NDK. Folk do run the burninator x4 Incinerator Purgation squad, and it can be very fun for the points cost.

 

No more expensive than 5 Strikes, and you get 4 Incinerators (and a cheaper Melee Weapon on the Justicar!). You just lose scoring. unless you have a GKGM with TGS of course.

 

Don't ever use AA. There's really no reason to ever risk the Perils for it. The odds of being out of LoS with a template weapon, is slim.

[Brother Bobert]

If you're doing it for the fluff, do it!

 

You can always Krak Grenade AV12 anyway! (Or hit it with a Hammer!)

 

But if you're asking about Incinerators or Psycannons. Psycannons hands down. The only Incinerator I'd want to use is a Heavy Incinerator on an NDK. Folk do run the burninator x4 Incinerator Purgation squad, and it can be very fun for the points cost.

 

No more expensive than 5 Strikes, and you get 4 Incinerators (and a cheaper Melee Weapon on the Justicar!). You just lose scoring. unless you have a GKGM with TGS of course.

 

Don't ever use AA. There's really no reason to ever risk the Perils for it. The odds of being out of LoS with a template weapon, is slim.

One reason to use Astral Aim is that it will allow any idipendant characters attached to ignore line of sight as well. So you can make a nasty little squad of conversion beamers, from inquisitors/techmarines, or orbital bombardments. If done right the inquisitors rolling for divination powers you can get the perfect timing power and ignore the coversave from AA anyways.

[Gentlemanloser]

But you're not going to be running a Conversion Beamer Inq/Tech with an Incinerator Squad.

[adamv6]

I normally take;

 

1 Unit with 4 Psycannons & 6 Halberds

1 Unit with 3 Incinerators, 2 Hammers and 5 Halberds

 

Take what you want to use is my advise.

 

Personally, I love the Incinerators. I have also noticed people in 6th really don't like charging a unit that has that many incinerators in it...

 

BTW, Coteaz and 2 units of cheap henchman is 150 points as well, then you can take the Purifiers as Elites. Still makes for a nice fluffy list I find.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think to sum up the thread:

 

- Incinerators only work on the DK or using the Trogdor Purgator build (4x incinerator, Justicar hammer, Rhino)

- Astral Aim is the second worst power in the codex (Dark Excommunication takes the cake, as it isn't even useful in the cornercase it is intended for)

- Purifiers > Purgators, especially with quad psycannon

- Crowe is terrible, a GM giving out scoring status is better in every measurable way, plus you can always have non-scoring Purifiers but cheap scoring Henchmen spam with Coteaz

[NoLifeKing]

I find purgation squad more effective if it fielded as a full 10man squad, and astral aim is actually my fav power in the codex(after hammerhand), many times it has saved my game.  Also the teleport homer upgrade on the justicar is just priceless treasure in my tactics. how i usualy play my purgs is that i load them with 2 psycannons and two incinerators and drive them at the side of my redeermer towards the objective the enemy has his forces swarmed upon. then later deep a termies quad to that objective via the teleport homer.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

and astral aim is actually my fav power in the codex(after hammerhand), many times it has saved my game

 

o_O

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I find purgation squad more effective if it fielded as a full 10man squad, and astral aim is actually my fav power in the codex(after hammerhand), many times it has saved my game.

 

All of my wut. Do you play Cityfight exclusively or something? Because I cannot think of any scenario where you'd be unable to get LOS that many times for 'Astral Aim' to work out. Remember, it still gives 4+ cover as stated in its rules, which is now worse than average cover (5+ base). If you don't have LOS that often, I think you need to position your units better. Its amusing to fire through solid walls but its much better to have actual LOS consistently. 

 

 

how i usualy play my purgs is that i load them with 2 psycannons and two incinerators and drive them at the side of my redeermer towards the objective the enemy has his forces swarmed upon. then later deep a termies quad to that objective via the teleport homer.

 

Mixing weapons is a terrible idea. If you are in range to psycannon, the incinerators are worthless. If you are in range to use the incinerators, you'd much rather have quad incinerator (more hits = more wounds). 

Leaving Terminators in reserve isn't that great. Knights are always at a disadvantage in presence (ie bodycount), leaving your heavy hitters off-table in the crucial first few turns is robbing you of their firepower and presence. Our Terminators are pretty shooty as well, so there is no problem walking up the board with them. 

 

To dismantle your strategy requires very little. All your opponent has to do is take down the Redeemer, or get around it with fast units, and your Purgators will fold in melee to equal points (swords are nice but you don't have enough attacks). That gets rid of a fire support unit and your teleport homer in one fell swoop. DA just got an update which pushes Biker armies, and standard Biker Marines would have no trouble getting around you. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like to run my squad of Purifiers with three psycannons and one incinerator - they have their uses. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Incinerators are totally redundant on Purifiers. You already break any same-size squad in half with your shooting+melee (ie 10-man), and if you are charged by something that outnumbers you, just cast 'Cleansing Flame'. I've had combat squads of Purifiers murder their way through multiple enemy infantry units, it's against 2+ saves or AV12+ they have issues. 

[Inquisitor Fox]

But if you can incinerate something without having to get into hand to hand, no one has a risk of death.  Minimizing death risk is also a good thing.  There is no one true way.

 

I'm planning on having a six-man unit of Purifiers with two Incinerators in it.  Why?  Because it's a good use of footprint minimization, getting multiple special weapons, having a relatively decent melee presence (with the 2 attacks base, one hammer and three halberds), and fits in a Razorback.  Then again this would be to supplement a more traditional army, not work in a Purifier only army.

 

Cleansing Flame is useful, but there are many circumstances where you can't count on it.  A few examples: Tyrannids (shadows of the warp, anyone?), Eldar (Eldrad), several armies still have anti-psyker characters.  Cleansing Flame does inflict a lot of hits, and will definitely shrink an enemy squad, but it doesn't always kill everything.  Having a few incinerators to reduce the enemy, THEN to charge into them with Cleansing Flame, then your halberds to wipe up what's left... it's useful.

 

4 Incinerators may be a bit of overkill, but I don't think a smaller squad with 2 incinerators is that bad of a deal.  Mixing weapons isn't a bad deal sometimes either, remember we can Combat Squad now if we're at full squad size.  Any decision cannot be made in a vacuum, you have to look at your army as a synergistic whole in order to really get a better feel for things.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

 

But if you can incinerate something without having to get into hand to hand, no one has a risk of death.  Minimizing death risk is also a good thing.  There is no one true way.

 

True, but getting into template range without dying is tricky. Rhinos are pretty easy to kill, Land Raiders are too expensive. I guess you can catch people out with the Raven, but like the other two options it is still going to cop a lot of attention on the way in. And of course, Purgators are functionally cheaper to do that kinda suicide run with anyway. 

Between the quad psycannon+storm bolter, Overwatch, AP3 I6 force weapons (and the 1-2 hammers for slaying high Toughness)....I mean, 24" is a big deal. That is still at least a turn of movement for most units before they can charge on average dice. And now that cover saves are lower anyway, horde armies are losing more manz to our guns. 

 

 

Cleansing Flame is useful, but there are many circumstances where you can't count on it.  A few examples: Tyrannids (shadows of the warp, anyone?), Eldar (Eldrad), several armies still have anti-psyker characters.  Cleansing Flame does inflict a lot of hits, and will definitely shrink an enemy squad, but it doesn't always kill everything.  Having a few incinerators to reduce the enemy, THEN to charge into them with Cleansing Flame, then your halberds to wipe up what's left... it's useful.

 

'Shadows' implies Synapse, which isn't good for them really (3D6 is a pain, but Ld9 means you still have good odds and them losing Synapse is costly). Eldrad is hax, so eh. I barely use 'Cleansing Flame' in any case, like I mentioned earlier raw dakka really cuts down most infantry to size. Stacking incinerators with 'Cleansing Flame' is brutal...but when will you need that much anti-horde concentrated? Even IG blob or Zombie horde max out at about 30 or so (same for Orks). That's my point, 'Cleansing Flame' is free and does essentially what the incinerators would do. Better to load up on psycannons instead, whittle them down for a turn or two, and have the potential to threaten other things (Terminators, vehicles, even MC's to a large extent). 

 

 

4 Incinerators may be a bit of overkill, but I don't think a smaller squad with 2 incinerators is that bad of a deal.  Mixing weapons isn't a bad deal sometimes either, remember we can Combat Squad now if we're at full squad size.  Any decision cannot be made in a vacuum, you have to look at your army as a synergistic whole in order to really get a better feel for things.

 

Even then, I'd rather the psycannons. Also, Combat Squads never seems to work out for me. I like dropping 'Prescience' onto them, and it works better with a full unit. Even Strikes, who wanna spread to multi-cast 'Quake', I generally leave them as one unit. That said, incinerators are still awesome weapons (regular Marines are jealous), and infantry-heavy is back in fashion now.

[IndigoJack]

I rarely don't combat squad. It's useful in armies with low body count to help up target saturation. While not combat squading due to prescience does make prescience more efficient, I've generally found that prescience leads to a lot of overkill, even in a five man squad (which likely has two psycannons). Combat squading adds a lot of flexibility, and the decision to do it, or not do it, should be made after you've seen your opponents army and know the mission type.

 

As far as incinerators go, I can see an argument made for them on just about anything but strikes (why is the incinerator 20pts and the psycannon only 10???). I personally prefer psycannons as it lets me keep my opponent at range while I shoot at them. TBH though, if you're doing it for fluff reasons go for it. You're local gaming group will probably hate you less if you're grey knight army is fluffy rather than an efficient bullet machine.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I rarely don't combat squad. It's useful in armies with low body count to help up target saturation. While not combat squading due to prescience does make prescience more efficient, I've generally found that prescience leads to a lot of overkill, even in a five man squad (which likely has two psycannons). Combat squading adds a lot of flexibility, and the decision to do it, or not do it, should be made after you've seen your opponents army and know the mission type.

 

I think you are confusing 40k with another game. We don't have overkill. I'd rather a unit dead for sure, than maybe dead. Combat squads just ends up diluting my firepower more often than not. I have done the double 'Cleansing Flame' thing to people, which is amusing, but I'm not hitting melee with Purifiers much anymore. People just don't even bother charging them nowadays, especially now Overwatch is in play. 

 

 

As far as incinerators go, I can see an argument made for them on just about anything but strikes (why is the incinerator 20pts and the psycannon only 10???). I personally prefer psycannons as it lets me keep my opponent at range while I shoot at them. TBH though, if you're doing it for fluff reasons go for it. You're local gaming group will probably hate you less if you're grey knight army is fluffy rather than an efficient bullet machine.

 

Eh, I think because the same moron who costed Strikes and wrote their psychic power thought 'oMG derpstriking with template weapons = OP!!1!!'. Luckily, they remembered that psycannons should never be more than 10. 

On your second point, you should never let the whining of others affect your list building. It's your army. Just because other people either can't write good lists, or choose bad strategies/tactics and lose, is no reason to water down your list. 

[IndigoJack]

 

 

I rarely don't combat squad. It's useful in armies with low body count to help up target saturation. While not combat squading due to prescience does make prescience more efficient, I've generally found that prescience leads to a lot of overkill, even in a five man squad (which likely has two psycannons). Combat squading adds a lot of flexibility, and the decision to do it, or not do it, should be made after you've seen your opponents army and know the mission type.

 

I think you are confusing 40k with another game. We don't have overkill. I'd rather a unit dead for sure, than maybe dead. Combat squads just ends up diluting my firepower more often than not. I have done the double 'Cleansing Flame' thing to people, which is amusing, but I'm not hitting melee with Purifiers much anymore. People just don't even bother charging them nowadays, especially now Overwatch is in play. 

There is definitely overkill. For example, using 10 purifers w/ 4 psycannons to kill 3 marines is far less efficient than using 5 purfiers w/ 2 psycannons. And if it really takes 10 purifers to kill those marines, you can fire the second combat squad at it as well, assuming its in range and in LOS. Why use a sledgehammer to drive a nail when a smaller hammer works just fine?

 

 

 

As far as incinerators go, I can see an argument made for them on just about anything but strikes (why is the incinerator 20pts and the psycannon only 10???). I personally prefer psycannons as it lets me keep my opponent at range while I shoot at them. TBH though, if you're doing it for fluff reasons go for it. You're local gaming group will probably hate you less if you're grey knight army is fluffy rather than an efficient bullet machine.

 

Eh, I think because the same moron who costed Purgators and wrote their psychic power thought 'oMG derpstriking with template weapons = OP!!1!!'. Luckily, they remembered that psycannons should never be more than 10. 

On your second point, you should never let the whining of others affect your list building. It's your army. Just because other people either can't write good lists, or choose bad strategies/tactics and lose, is no reason to water down your list. 

 

While I agree that you shouldn't let whiners affect list building, if you're playing in a meta dominated by fluff and you're playing an ultra-competitive list, you might now win new friends. There is a bit of cheese in the GK codex and an okay GK list will give many good lists a run for there money.  For example, a purifier and a strike have a difference of 4 pts. This makes sense because purifiers have an extra attack and are fearless. However, if you give both models a halberd, now there's only a 1 pt between the two. Isn't that a little cheesy? GKs have rightly earned the fear that they put into many opponents. So if you're trying to get into a game group that uses a lot of fluff armies, a fluffy army is going to get you more games.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

There is definitely overkill. For example, using 10 purifers w/ 4 psycannons to kill 3 marines is far less efficient than using 5 purfiers w/ 2 psycannons. And if it really takes 10 purifers to kill those marines, you can fire the second combat squad at it as well, assuming its in range and in LOS. Why use a sledgehammer to drive a nail when a smaller hammer works just fine?

When am I killing 3 Marines? If its only a few dudes left, I'll just ignore them or use a PsyDread to force a fall back or something. I've watched too many games fail because I couldn't concentrate force on the right targets. I very rarely suffer from being too powerful and wasting shots. It's usually the complete opposite.

While I agree that you shouldn't let whiners affect list building, if you're playing in a meta dominated by fluff and you're playing an ultra-competitive list, you might now win new friends. There is a bit of cheese in the GK codex and an okay GK list will give many good lists a run for there money. For example, a purifier and a strike have a difference of 4 pts. This makes sense because purifiers have an extra attack and are fearless. However, if you give both models a halberd, now there's only a 1 pt between the two. Isn't that a little cheesy? GKs have rightly earned the fear that they put into many opponents. So if you're trying to get into a game group that uses a lot of fluff armies, a fluffy army is going to get you more games.

Firstly, and I want to be clear, the mythical 'fluff only' player doesn't exist. I'm dead serious. I've never met one, and I think they're impossible, like unicorns.

Like unicorns, they require you to believe things that aren't true (that horses can grow a horn out of their skull because magic). In the case of 'fluff only', its people hiding behind 'theme' and bashing other players because they, the high priest of what is and isn't 'themed', suck. I've met plenty of 'that guy' people who sigh and moan when I bring Knights out of the box. I laugh, because it is absurd. They aren't bitching about my lists and guilting me for taking my list because they genuinely care about 'fluff'. They're moaning because I stomp them, because Knights are the noob-gate in this game. If you can beat Knights, you can beat anyone. Emphasis on can, not will.

 

Likewise, they're fielding a terrible list not because of theme, but because they either A: can't write a good list or B: aren't a good player. Sometimes both. If a tourney-level player can make Henchmen+Sisters work, you can make anything work. Yeah, even Tau or Daemons, they have good Allies now that bring them up.

 

For the longest time, both us and IG were the butt of jokes. 4th edition was when the rot set in, but 5th was unbearable until our new codex dropped (mainly because IG got buffed first). You may not remember, but I do. The horrible threads where we all circlejerked over 'Water Strategy', triple Raider lists and other utter garbage the old codex funneled us into. It was our trial by fire. The other long-term members all know this. And yeah, back then, we all used the 'but I like the background and aesthetics, your army choice shouldn't be based on power level' arguments, because we were in denial. The old Daemonhunter codex was and is a bad joke, brought about due to bad marketing strategy and confusion about what the army should be about (long story short, they were trying to sell the Inquisitor RPG at the same time).

 

So, when I get the same utter tosh thrown back at me by people with terrible Marine lists, or xenos players who take garbage units in their lists, I laugh. You should too. This cancer of 'I am not a WAAC gamer, I play for fluff' is disingenuous and insulting. If your local player base moan about you taking a winning list, tell them to step up their game. The real sore losers will sulk and not do anything about it, the winners will build good lists and give you good matchups.