The Sons of Rurik!

[Veteran Sergeant]

This could lead to some serious questions about just how well did Girlyman do with converting and understanding his brothers' works? Did Guilliman understand *their* idiomatic phrasing, terms and core concepts entirely accurately and in a way perfectly representative of their intents?

Gonna echo again the earlier sentiments about using memes and 40K jokes. When you say "Girlyman", it doesn't inspire confidence that you're ever going to grasp what it is I'm talking about, and that you hold an initial prejudice against the idea to begin with because you harbor the kind of irrational dislike of the Ultramarines that is unfortunately common amonst 40K players. People don't want to put effort into offering complex and time consuming advice if they think you might just dismiss it out of hand based on prejudices.

 

The Codex Astartes has been described as the most comprehensive tome on warfare ever written. It's like combining the works of all the military geniuses who ever lived into a single comprehensive tome, and edited together by the greatest military mind to ever live. There's no such thing as "serious questions" about how well Guilliman understood or translated the ideas of his brothers. He did. And that's why the Codex Astartes has been the guiding work for Space Marines for 10,000 years. Again, this is where some people get confused about the Codex Astartes. The only part of the Codex that was "forced" onto the Legions was the organizational structure, breaking down the Legions into Chapters. When the fluff talks about primarchs like Leman Russ railing against the Codex Astartes, it's because he didn't want to break his Legion up, and didn't want to adopt the 10x100 Company structure when the Wolves had their Great Companies and their traditions. Leman Russ wasn't ever saying "I hate all this strategy and military theory you've compiled!".

 

As for the Farm part, I am not sure that I follow. Could you restate that as concisely as possible?

Basically this:

- The benefits of "The Farm" on the recruiting population seem suspect, even counter-productive given understanding of child development and psychology, and definitely overly complicated and resource intensive.

- However, the concepts behind "The Farm" make lots of sense for the actual recruits once they've been selected from the populace for indoctrination as Space Marines. A Space Marine aspirant spends around ten years in the pipeline to becoming a Scout. Whatever they enter the process as, emotionally and mentally, is going to be completely erased, and replaced with whatever the Chapter teaches them to be. It would likely be easier for the chapter to form the minds of a mentally stable and developed child, than to try and layer over psychosis. And that even applies if your intent it to create a Marine who is a bit psychotic/sociopathic.

- Can still adapt the idea of "The Farm" to the previous concept, but make the more controlled environment be less overtly vicious and debased, and more "evil mastermind". That sort of subtlety seems like it would give more layers to your chapter. That sort of quiet malice is so much more intriguing than just being over bastards. Plus, it makes more sense. It takes a lot of work and planning to create something like "The Farm", and it's more believable if the Chapter seems like it is capable of such a feat.

 

Basically, a method behind the madness, as opposed to just madness.

[Gulag]

Gonna echo again the earlier sentiments about using memes and 40K jokes. When you say "Girlyman", it doesn't inspire confidence that you're ever going to grasp what it is I'm talking about, and that you hold an initial prejudice against the idea to begin with because you harbor the kind of irrational dislike of the Ultramarines that is unfortunately common amonst 40K players. People don't want to put effort into offering complex and time consuming advice if they think you might just dismiss it out of hand based on prejudices.

 

Could have sworn that I dropped the Girlyman bit out of that after my rough draft...must not have copy-pasta'd the final version from notepad. Eh, the joys of the revision process. Oh well.

 

I would happen to consider my dislike of the Ultramarines to be very rational but if you want to press the issue I am cool with derailing this thread into an argument on that topic.

 

But moving on...

 

The Codex Astartes has been described as the most comprehensive tome on warfare ever written. It's like combining the works of all the military geniuses who ever lived into a single comprehensive tome, and edited together by the greatest military mind to ever live. There's no such thing as "serious questions" about how well Guilliman understood or translated the ideas of his brothers. He did. And that's why the Codex Astartes has been the guiding work for Space Marines for 10,000 years. Again, this is where some people get confused about the Codex Astartes. The only part of the Codex that was "forced" onto the Legions was the organizational structure, breaking down the Legions into Chapters. When the fluff talks about primarchs like Leman Russ railing against the Codex Astartes, it's because he didn't want to break his Legion up, and didn't want to adopt the 10x100 Company structure when the Wolves had their Great Companies and their traditions. Leman Russ wasn't ever saying "I hate all this strategy and military theory you've compiled!".

 

The Codex Astartes has been described as the most comprehensive tome on warfare ever written.

 

In a universe where propaganda is more common than oxygen.

 

It's like combining the works of all the military geniuses who ever lived into a single comprehensive tome, and edited together by the greatest military mind to ever live.

 

So Guilliman's brilliance outshines even Horus and the Emperor now? The Lion might also care to argue.

 

There's no such thing as "serious questions" about how well Guilliman understood or translated the ideas of his brothers. He did.

 

Baseless claim. No evidence. No citations. And even if he did, what's to prevent people from saying "I wanna see proof of that with my own two eyes"?

 

Leman Russ railing against the Codex Astartes, it's because he didn't want to break his Legion up, and didn't want to adopt the 10x100 Company structure when the Wolves had their Great Companies and their traditions. Leman Russ wasn't ever saying "I hate all this strategy and military theory you've compiled!".

 

Which is why the Space Wolfs use tactical squads, assault squads, devastators and neophyte scouts and not Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Lone Wolves, Wolf Guard, Wolf Scouts, Thunderwolf Cavalry and all that, right? All of the primarchs had an instinctive understanding of strategy and military situations, not just the primarch of the XIII legion.

 

"Oh, great - six-hundred dickity-something volumes on strategy and military theory. In prose format."

 

"Yeeeaaah, that'll sure come in handy. Because, y'know, I never conquered entire swathes of the galaxy with my own Legion and my own insights or anything."

 

You also didn't address the language issue. It is pretty important. Please, tell me more about how easy it is to read the original unabridged Beowulf in Old English. Or how the modern abridged English version meshes up perfectly with the Old English version.

 

Basically this:

- The benefits of "The Farm" on the recruiting population seem suspect, even counter-productive given understanding of child development and psychology, and definitely overly complicated and resource intensive.

- However, the concepts behind "The Farm" make lots of sense for the actual recruits once they've been selected from the populace for indoctrination as Space Marines. A Space Marine aspirant spends around ten years in the pipeline to becoming a Scout. Whatever they enter the process as, emotionally and mentally, is going to be completely erased, and replaced with whatever the Chapter teaches them to be. It would likely be easier for the chapter to form the minds of a mentally stable and developed child, than to try and layer over psychosis. And that even applies if your intent it to create a Marine who is a bit psychotic/sociopathic.

- Can still adapt the idea of "The Farm" to the previous concept, but make the more controlled environment be less overtly vicious and debased, and more "evil mastermind". That sort of subtlety seems like it would give more layers to your chapter. That sort of quiet malice is so much more intriguing than just being over bastards. Plus, it makes more sense. It takes a lot of work and planning to create something like "The Farm", and it's more believable if the Chapter seems like it is capable of such a feat.

 

Basically, a method behind the madness, as opposed to just madness.

 

Okay. I must not have made this clear. The Farm is a controlled environment wherein the Sons of Rurik have total control over the mortal populace and their development.

 

They control their diet. Their movements. Their breeding. They cull the seemingly random individuals because their test results aren't viewed positively by the Sons.

 

Everything about it is deliberate.

 

It is cruel and pitiless but it keeps the chapter supplied with recruits that won't reject the very idiosyncratic gene-seed and implants and who will mesh easily into the training program and Chapter mentality.

 

It isn't some random funhouse of torture and pain, it is a carefully husbanded breeding and indoctrination program. Thus why it is called "the Farm".

Edited January 21, 2013 by Gulag

[Messor]

 

Leman Russ railing against the Codex Astartes, it's because he didn't want to break his Legion up, and didn't want to adopt the 10x100 Company structure when the Wolves had their Great Companies and their traditions. Leman Russ wasn't ever saying "I hate all this strategy and military theory you've compiled!".

 

Which is why the Space Wolfs use tactical squads, assault squads, devastators and neophyte scouts and not Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Lone Wolves, Wolf Guard, Wolf Scouts, Thunderwolf Cavalry and all that, right? All of the primarchs had an instinctive understanding of strategy and military situations, not just the primarch of the XIII legion.

 

"Oh, great - six-hundred dickity-something volumes on strategy and military theory. In prose format."

 

"Yeeeaaah, that'll sure come in handy. Because, y'know, I never conquered entire swathes of the galaxy with my own Legion and my own insights or anything."

 

 

Minor thing, here, but the point is that the Codex was not compiled/written for the Legions, so not only is its target audience not born with the strategic instincts of the Primarchs, but there are few Chapters that are now above its use. Do we have any evidence of similar writings from other Primarchs? I doubt it if for no other than reason that their particular brands of OCD were of a different flavor.

[Gulag]

Leman Russ railing against the Codex Astartes, it's because he didn't want to break his Legion up, and didn't want to adopt the 10x100 Company structure when the Wolves had their Great Companies and their traditions. Leman Russ wasn't ever saying "I hate all this strategy and military theory you've compiled!".

 

Which is why the Space Wolfs use tactical squads, assault squads, devastators and neophyte scouts and not Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Lone Wolves, Wolf Guard, Wolf Scouts, Thunderwolf Cavalry and all that, right? All of the primarchs had an instinctive understanding of strategy and military situations, not just the primarch of the XIII legion.

 

"Oh, great - six-hundred dickity-something volumes on strategy and military theory. In prose format."

 

"Yeeeaaah, that'll sure come in handy. Because, y'know, I never conquered entire swathes of the galaxy with my own Legion and my own insights or anything."

 

 

Minor thing, here, but the point is that the Codex was not compiled/written for the Legions, so not only is its target audience not born with the strategic instincts of the Primarchs, but there are few Chapters that are now above its use. Do we have any evidence of similar writings from other Primarchs? I doubt it if for no other than reason that their particular brands of OCD were of a different flavor.

 

If i recall correctly, the other primarchs *did* have their own writings but i don't have the listing in front of me, but I would suspect that this is where a lot of a chapter's doctrine and character comes from. The point I am making is that there are other strategic/tactical traditions out there and Guilliman's codex is not an infallible end-all-be-all of the Art of War.

 

*THIS* chapter does not follow the teachings of the codex strictly and the debate on the Codex's merits, nature and history while fun, are off topic.

[Messor]

Good point, though if you do find details on the other Primarchs' writings, I'm interested in finding what I can.

 

A point of question from me, when you say they do not venerate 'a single Primarch', I understand that as not venerating any of them. Is that right, or do you mean they regard several Primarchs highly?

[Gulag]

Good point, though if you do find details on the other Primarchs' writings, I'm interested in finding what I can.

 

A point of question from me, when you say they do not venerate 'a single Primarch', I understand that as not venerating any of them. Is that right, or do you mean they regard several Primarchs highly?

 

They regard several primarchs highly, especially the more militant or ferocious primarchs. Ferrus, the Khan, Russ, Sanguinius. Not so much for Dorn, Vulkan, Guilliman, the Lion, or Corax.

[Messor]

Ah, a trait I haven't seen around here in a while, interesting. A rewording might be taken into consideration when forming the final article, though, to ensure its clear.

[Gulag]

Ah, a trait I haven't seen around here in a while, interesting. A rewording might be taken into consideration when forming the final article, though, to ensure its clear.

 

I will be sure to include that n the final product.

 

Any other questions or details that you fell could use some attention?

[Messor]

Only additional thing that comes to mind right now is how you've portrayed the gene-seed defects thus far: Is the vagueness intentional or because you haven't ironed out the details for yourself yet? We have the 'no missing organs' fact, but since you've mentioned there are numerous and varied defects, some examples would be welcome. Leaving 'lots of degradation' to the imagination will weaken the article overall.

 

You seem to have a lot of things decided already. Now that its spread on two pages, I'd recommend collecting the pieces you need and building a basic, organized outline to edit into the first post. It will make review easier.

[Gulag]

Only additional thing that comes to mind right now is how you've portrayed the gene-seed defects thus far: Is the vagueness intentional or because you haven't ironed out the details for yourself yet? We have the 'no missing organs' fact, but since you've mentioned there are numerous and varied defects, some examples would be welcome. Leaving 'lots of degradation' to the imagination will weaken the article overall.

 

You seem to have a lot of things decided already. Now that its spread on two pages, I'd recommend collecting the pieces you need and building a basic, organized outline to edit into the first post. It will make review easier.

 

I haven't ironed the details out yet, I'm trying to find a good sense of suitable defects and malfunctions that would go along with the Chapter's character and preferences. I am particularly open to suggestions on this subject.

 

Once that is done I will jump onto the organized outline thing.

[Gulag]

For genetic issues the Sons of Rurik have all of their organs and implants present and nominally functional, however they have pretty sharp senses, particularly their eyes. However, over time their vision will begin to suffer eventually requiring replacing their eyes with bionics.

 

Organs and implants also begin to malfunction and require bionics or vat-grown replacements from time to time. This is expensive and consumes essential resources for a chapter that is either short on resources or concerned that they will be in the near future. This has prompted recycling of everything at all levels.

 

Including their own dead. Dead astartes are kept in stasis or on ice as stores of spare parts for battle brothers in need of a new organ, tissue, or bone graft.

[Gulag]

The Vurdalak are marines whose organ failures have reached a catastrophic stage and suffer a sudden and strange malfunction of the Sun-an Membrane where the organ causes Hyperactivity and Unrestrained aggression as opposed to suspended animation. Edited January 21, 2013 by Gulag

[Gulag]

Got the IA outline in the first post started, going to expand it later