Observations from a test game

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

I played an 1850pt Relic, Hammer and Anvil battle vs. Chaos SM with my Disciples of Caliban today. I'm not doing a full BatRep, but I wanted to comment on what worked well and what did not seem to. Neither of us is a WAAC type and our armies tend to be fairly balanced. I was running specific things to try to see how they worked and hunting for specific match-ups, even if those were not the best moves from a win the game POV. I won, tabling him at the bottom of T5.

 

I was running in rough terms:

Azrael

An 8 man scout squad with ML, Flakk, and sniper rifles. (Started in reserve and did not make it on until T4)

A ten man tactical squad with ML, plasma. (Squadded out with the plasma part acting as retinue for Azreal)

6 man Ravenwing squadron (2 meltas) with a Typhoon (HB)

5 man Deathwing squad with cylcone

5 man DWK

5 man Devistator squad with PCx4

Dreadnought packing a PC

Niphilim

Pred. Anhil.

Land Raider

 

Lady luck was fickle for both of us. I had some awful wound and to hit rolls in the early turns with my guy, especially my lascannons. He probably had worse luck. His Heldrake didn't come on until T4. He had a squad get charged by Azrael, he challenged as he had to, I accepted and he ended up losing his champion followed by his unit breaking, followed by Azrael catching the nine guys running. He also had a miserable turn of shooting around T2 when his Land Raider and 3 Oblits failed to do a single wound to the Deathwing.

 

OBSERVATIONS:

 

The Ravenwing's built in teleport homer when combined with Deathwing Assault is really good. The RW can scout forward and then on T1, here comes the DW at the maximum 6" forward of the RW. This got me to the Relic on T1. I can only imagine what Belial can do with this. He can come in where he wants on T1 with a unit of RW riding up the flank. If the rest of the Deathwing comes in on T2, you have a lot of options to reliably place them.

 

The DWK rocked face. They killed.... 3 Oblits followed by 5 Noise Marines w/ Lev 3 sorcerer followed by 20 cultists. Preferred enemy and the drop in AP when fighting CSM is awesome. Their maces (power mauls) are clearly the best power weapon with the Bane rule. They would have killed another 4 noise marines, but Azreal got their first. Speaking of Azrael....

 

Azrael was hard core. He managed to get all 5 of his accompanying tacticals killed along with the Deathwing he was walking around near, but he kept on going. Lots of wounds, lots of attacks, master crafted, good AP, good armor, and Inner Circle. He was unstoppable. He killed the Slaanesh Lord w/ lightning claws, part of a 10 man Noise Marine unit, a ten man CSM unit (they broke when their champ got killed and then caught) and a 4 man Noise Marine unit, and the last two he did solo. He had two wounds on him at the end and would have had one more except that he managed a FNP vs the Baleflamer.

 

Ravenwing was solid. Great for getting a teleport homer up the field. I didn't have the points to really experiment with the whole 2++ cover from the new land speeder, but that could be really cool. I ended up having to run them through a lot of difficult terrain (losing 2 guys to it and making like 3 saves -- see previous comment about Lady Luck) and mostly I was using it's meltas to try to shoot the enemy Land Raider. They succeeded at that and then got tied up with the 20 cultist blob. I think they would have been attritioned to death (Lady Luck favored cultists with many 6's) had the DWK not charged in next turn. They died anyway when they got Baleflamered. I think the Heldrake and that damn flamer are going to be a huge problem for them and a major weakness.

 

Speaking of flyers, one of the matchups I wanted to see was Nephilim vs. Heldrake. I was completely unimpressed. In two rounds, the Neph managed to score no wounds with missiles and only one with the LC which got invuln saved. Had I been luckier, I might have been able to do something, but it really needs a second TL LC to be the sort of air superiority fighter it should be. Granted, if I get a pen in, I have a 50% chance of crashing the 'Drake. It may be better in an A-10 configuration with the mega-bolter and hoping to glance the 'Drake to death (though this gives up the pen hit special ability). It is better at anti-infantry and anti-light vehicle with the H5 vs the TL Heavy 1. The thing that dropped the 'Drake was the Land Raider who shot it once it entered hover out of desperation in T5.

[Brother Landrain]

It is really amazing to me that the Fighter has S6 Missiles, and a S6 Mega-Bolter... I mean seriously? And its supposed to be an Air Superiority fighter?

 

Thats only GLANCING on 5's against just about everything flying. Sure you get a twin-linked lascannon shot... ONE...

 

The IG have a much better Air-Superiority fighter, and it can carry troops.

 

The Missiles need to be at Least Strength 8, and the Bolter should be a 7. Or the option should be two-twinlinked lascannons at least.

 

I like the model, hate the rules, and the price will have me buying fewer of these than I would normally...

[Gillyfish]

Give the bolter rending and it would be pretty potent for air superiority. Although that load-out is supposed to more geared towards anti-troop/light vehicles.

 

Anyway, without turning this into another thread on the Nephilim, I think it's nice to hear how the new units are working together. Storm, when did you use the DW Knights' ability to hit at strength 10 and what was your opinion of that vs normal weapons?

[Azrael Turnbull]

Ranged scouts in reserve taking Flakk missiles? *cringe*

 

I do love how Deathwing Knights turn into something else when it comes to fighting Chaos. Cheaper than Storm Shields, but so much better. Their only downside is versing other Marine chapters, although in fluff terms, that shouldn't happen often. In reality, however...

 

Azrael is a mean character, and I will use him so much more often. Already a close combat monster, he has so many tactically adaptable options to choose from. He's like a bigger and better Sicarius.

 

Although sold to be anti aircraft, Nephilim's are not bad against ground vehicles. Just remember they can be almost anywhere on the board uncontested, hitting side and rear armour all day long. ;)

 

I might post my 2k Dark Angels list here at some point. It's triple wing, and has won 4/4 games in at most 3 turns each.

[elphilo]

I do love how Deathwing Knights turn into something else when it comes to fighting Chaos. Cheaper than Storm Shields, but so much better. Their only downside is versing other Marine chapters, although in fluff terms, that shouldn't happen often. In reality, however...

 

So I love the Deathwing Knights and I was playing my chaos buddy who said he hated them. I assumed it was because they get stupidly good against Chaos player. He said he hated them for this exact reason. They are only really good against Chaos, not counting the once per game Smite. So I've been thinking in order to make them better I think I might actually use what Ronin_eX said when the Codex first came out. Belial with TH/SS in that unit. Makes it so if you are fighting that TH/SS Death-star Space Marine unit, you have a guy that is guaranteed kills.

[Isiah]

Nice roundup. Azzy is an awesome character and makes sense to take in DW/RW multiwing if you don't want to field Belial and Sammy. We'll call that 'Azzywing' :P

 

Cheers

I

[Brother Landrain]

Why does everyone think that Storm Shields are automatic saves?

 

I have played more than enough Deathwing to know that you will fail 2+ and you most definately will fail 3++

 

And with only one wound, thats all that matters.

 

AP3 is really only not Optimal vs other TEQ troops... for everything else it is just fine.... and against Chaos Priceless :)

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Ranged scouts in reserve taking Flakk missiles? *cringe*

 

It wasn't their intended deployment when I made the list; I had planned to park them in a good vantage and snipe at stuff. I only put them in reserve when the mission became relic. In relic, I like interceptors in case enemy gets ahold of the ball and starts running backwards with it. Hammer and Anvil only made that more acute. If I had been building them with knowledge of the mission, I'd probably have equipped them with a pistol and CCW. I expected a 'drake and wanted to see what Flakk could do. As it happened, when the drake finally came in both ML's were moving, so I didn't get to see how that worked.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

 

So I love the Deathwing Knights and I was playing my chaos buddy who said he hated them. I assumed it was because they get stupidly good against Chaos player. He said he hated them for this exact reason. They are only really good against Chaos, not counting the once per game Smite. So I've been thinking in order to make them better I think I might actually use what Ronin_eX said when the Codex first came out. Belial with TH/SS in that unit. Makes it so if you are fighting that TH/SS Death-star Space Marine unit, you have a guy that is guaranteed kills.

 

They are awesome against CSM because they get +2S, can punch the armor of most troops, and can do that one round of heavy hitting against things with multiple wounds like Oblits. Against other armies that are not loyalists, they should do well for the reason that power mauls do well, including against MCs. Against TEQ, they won't be as good as normal DW. While the +2S still makes a power maul better than a power sword against TEQ, the TEQ will have a 2+ whereas against normal DW, the TEQ have only their invulns. Where the DWK fall short is against loyalist marines standard armor or necrons. Here, they can't penetrate the 3+ whereas both a power sword and a power fist/TH could. So in recap:

 

vs. CSM = awesome

vs. TEQ = pretty good but not great

vs. other races not TEQ or MEQ = pretty good but vulerable to mass attacks depending on enemy troops

vs. MEQ that is not CSM= sub-optimal

 

But since I'm about to start playing in a campaign where at least 2 of the three guys on the other team are playing CSM armies.....

[worloch]

Blacksword missiles seem to be missing something - St 6, AP 4 one use weapons are optimal against ... nothing really. An Assault Cannon can fire 4 times, as opposed to the 2 missiles per turn rule, has Rending, and isn't one use only. I'm not in favor of making them St 8, as that just makes them sucky Krak or Blood Strike missiles (or whatever the BA Storm Raven missiles are). I think they left off Armorbane - add that and you get a pretty good anti-armor missile that is unique in profile.

 

I'm disappointed because with the DA emphasis on anti-CSM, I thought the Nephilim was meant to be our answer to the Helldrake, at least in some regard, but as this test game has demonstrated, that simply isn't the case.

 

On a tangential note, I'd be opposed to them adding Rending to the Mega Bolter, as that would just make a slightly improved AC. For real fun, I think they should have made it Heavy 3D3. Yup, old AC rule without the Jamming, for those that go back that far. That would make it average about Heavy 6, and vary between Min 3 and Max 9 shots per turn. Fluff to justify randomness could be attributed to super high rate of fire but also highly inaccurate, mostly coming down to luck for the number of shots that end up in the vicinity of the target.

 

 

Tangent aside, I'm glad to see the DWK's doing well - They are probably the first new unit I'm going to put together (that or some Black Knights). I think throwing an IC in with the DWK for killing power against armies that are not CSM is a good idea. I was thinking an Interrogator-Chaplain might fit the bill, as you would get Zealotry for the Squad, and he could pick up Fortress of Shields benefit.

 

How did the regular DW do? Did you DWA them in, and if so, how did you feel about the CML as opposed to an AC?

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Blacksword missiles seem to be missing something - St 6, AP 4 one use weapons are optimal against ... nothing really. An Assault Cannon can fire 4 times, as opposed to the 2 missiles per turn rule, has Rending, and isn't one use only. I'm not in favor of making them St 8, as that just makes them sucky Krak or Blood Strike missiles (or whatever the BA Storm Raven missiles are). I think they left off Armorbane - add that and you get a pretty good anti-armor missile that is unique in profile.

 

I think they made a last minute change. I think the missiles were originally going to be blast weapons, but they dropped it because that limited their ability to target flyers. that left them with a gun and missiles with the same profile which is kind of dumb. They should have given the gun rending or the missiles a bump in strength. I'd also like to see the mega-bolter as the standard and then a costed upgrade to TWO TL Lascannons, maybe even at the expense of two missiles in capacity.

 

How did the regular DW do? Did you DWA them in, and if so, how did you feel about the CML as opposed to an AC?

 

I brought the DW in on T1 via assault just like the DWK, both queuing off the RW homer. I basically put the DW straight forward so that they could just barely get a model in B2B with the relic. (The DWK were outside and slightly back of the DW so they were closer to the sorcerer and the Oblits, both of which were targets for my DWK.) That model touching the relic was the one with the CML because I used the other 4 models to shield the relic bearer from the most likely line of fire. CML didn't manage to score a wound in T1 even with TL. On T2, the enemy maneuvered to get a plasmagunner from a rhino to be closest to the relic bearer, shot the DW's, wounded, and I missed my invuln. So I don't actually know how the CML would have done had it stuck around. The DW terminator squad did okay though. It sucked up almost all the enemy fire in T2 including a lot of LCs and plasma, dropping down to two or three models. Then it got charged by some noise marines and the Chaos Lord. On my T2, Azrael and 5 tacticals charged in and Azrael challenged the Lord, killing him. At the end of that combat, the DW was down to 1 model. It then helped Azrael and the two surviving tacticals charge the CSM squad that had stolen the relic dropped by the CML DW, killing them. It was lining up to help Azrael charge another CSM squad with the relic when it got baleflamered and somehow rolled a 1 on its save, dying along with the two surviving tacticals with Azrael. It was after that that Azrael did his solo challenge followed by destruction of the fleeing CSM squad.

 

Edit: I like both the Ac and the CML a lot and have a hard time deciding. The CML is probably better vs. marines because the AC still gives up the 3+ too much and the range is better. This matters more with split fire. The AC is awful nice though, especially if you are hunting something like the back armor of a necron barge after you deep strike. I think it is situational and depends on what else you have in your army. Neither is really bad if used appropriately.

 

Edit 2: I dunno about the Chaplain. If I were going to add a second HQ (and a very rarely do), I'd be sorely tempted by the librarian or even the company master/captain type.

[Louis]

Great write up, especially the section on DWK and how they stack up against various targets.

 

How do you feel the Nephilim would work as a ground attack fighter?

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Great write up, especially the section on DWK and how they stack up against various targets.

 

How do you feel the Nephilim would work as a ground attack fighter?

 

Thanks!

 

I'm not sure because attempting to do that was not my focus in this game.

 

My thoughts would be that it does enjoy enhanced BS when straffing if I recall, but I am not sure how much difference the BS 5 will make absent blast weapons which it lost in the final printing. I think, if I were going to take a Nephilim for ground attack, I'd probably opt for the mega-bolter just for the volume of fire it provides and the fact I think it is the more versatile and flexible combination. (Also, if the CSM player has it fixed in mind that the Nephilim is an anti-Heldrake platform, maybe I can alter their play with its presence even if it cannot do much against a 'drake.) Granted, the TL LC is more powerful and has better AP (allowing it to take advantage of the special rule to make a weapon destroyed into an immobilized which is IMO targeted at flyers) but it is also only one shot. To me that makes the LC an anti-vehicle weapon, not anti-infantry. If you want to hunt tanks or take shots at flyers, you keep the LC, but currently there are fewer tanks and more guys so I want more shots in anti-infantry mode. This may be the Neph's best role actually, especially if it is hunting things with higher tougnesses (and preferably worse armor). I'm thinking of some Tyranid MC's here. It also would be pretty good at downing skimmers even in this anti-infantry configuration. But here is the thing, if I want anti infantry, the Dark Talon puts out more rounds, especially when in closer. The DT also has a better ability to provide support for assault and may have better synergy with the rest of the army. So, unless I NEEDED the S6 weapon or the BS+1, I'd be hard pressed to choose the Nephilim over a Dark Talon for anti-infantry, especially if I had significant assault elements in my army.

 

Actually, one thing I noticed is that our new 'Dex has a LOT of various kinds of inter-unit synergy. The homers on some units synergize with the DW. The Darkshroud synergizes with the RW (and esp the Black Knights). The Talon synergizes with the assault elements etc. All of this makes it hard to really say which is better without a lot more play testing. Never conclude anything based on a single test. Thus, while I was impressed with the DWK, I have to say I want to test them a bit more to see if they are CONSISTENTLY that good. Likewise, I want to know if the Neph is consistently disappointing. All I can say right now is that it did nothing against the 'Drake when in the same airspace for 2 turns. Once because its LC missed and the missiles failed to roll glances. The second time, because the 'Drake made its invuln and the missiles failed to glance. Give me five or six more outings and I'll have a better idea.

 

EDIT TL/DR: I think it would work okay with a mega-bolter if you are hunting the right prey. For hunting real tanks, you'd want a Nephilim w/ TL LC. against ground troops it has heavy competition from the Dark Talon. More testing than one game is required.

[Ronin_eX]

With DWK against standard MEQ, don't forget that the Knight Master is S6AP3 and has 3A. Despite his lack of Smite I find he is a great general-purpose unit.

 

And one of my favourite tricks with DWK is using them as assassins (figuratively). Charge them in to combat, in most cases, if you don't drop a challenge then your opponent will in an effort to hide a character from a potential Smite. But since the Knight Master doesn't have Smite, I simply reject the challenge. The Knight Master's AP3 will be missed but the combination of You Cannot Hide and Smite means that (on a charge turn) ~2 attacks can be aimed at whoever you like. And short of being T6 (which we can sort with Rad Grenades) or EW, that means about two "make your invuln. or die" rolls, likely before they can even react.

 

It's a great way of drawing tough enemy characters out and breaking the enemy's spine in one fell swoop. And we can tend to stack enough buffs and debuffs to make sure it doesn't fizzle due to bad luck.

 

In most cases you only need that one decisive assault to really shift things in your favour, and DWK are great at delivering on that. Their mix of rules makes them the bane of challenge happy ICs.

 

All in all, against MEQs, they aren't too bad (and when I say MEQ, I mean without an invuln. of any kind). On the turn they charge, without Smite, a squad of 5 will take out an average of 4.92 marines each turn. In return they will take relatively few casualties due to being T5 2+/3++. On their "off" turns (i.e. not charging) this drops to 3.1 marines per turn. So by the end of the second round of combat they have killed ~8 marines (and if they didn't run the first time after likely losing combat by 3-4 points). And the most important part is that they do this at initiative, so an unlucky casualty will only tend to effect their damage output during the next turn, rather than this turn (as with most S8AP2 I1 TDA-units).

 

So their performance against units with 3+ saves isn't too bad. This is the upside to hitting and wounding with most of the attacks you make. Forcing saves against 3+ is just as successful a strategy as ignoring the armour in some cases. And against models with invulnerable saves, it is a much better way of going about things.

 

Whatever they can't smite out of existence they can almost invariably grind down through attrition. The biggest thing to worry about with them is timing the Smite correctly so that it gains maximum effect.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

In return they will take relatively few casualties due to being T5 2+/3++.

 

In practice I found it very difficult to maintain the T5 in melee. The was because the way you have tomove models into assault combined with the smaller numbers of DWK spreads you out as you go in. Sometimes you could get the shield wall on one or two guys in the center, but the guys on the end were all but impossible. Where the T5 helped me was when I DSed in and during enemy shooting phase - I used my consolidation to bunch up again.

[IndigoJack]

If you can get at least 3 models for shield wall, they all get T5 because of majority toughness

[Ronin_eX]

Yeah, majority toughness keeps them going fairly well, and with their big bases it isn't too hard to get enough of them touching to pull it off.  There is almost always a way to move them while keeping them in contact.  That said, it might be helpful to make a tactics thread on positioning and formations to maximize Fortress of Shields.

 

So far I have found it best to array them in a circle while on the move and when charing in to combat a tight wall seems to do well (with a Knight Master on the edge to leave space open for challengers to move to him and allowing him to be taken as a casualty without compromising the wall too much.  But I would love to take a look at how larger squads would be handled since I intend to run them in 6-man and 8-man units quite a bit once I pick up another Deathwing Command box.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Eight almost seems too killy.  The five I ran wiped out 3 Oblits in one turn, a sorcerer and 5 Noise Marines in 1 turn, and 15 cultists in one turn.  Ideally I want them to last for two turns so they are freed up again when I am ready to move them.

[Ronin_eX]

It will mostly be something to pull out as a surprise-flanker with Belial at the helm.  Since they will have to put up with a turn of shooting without much support, a squad of eight means they will still be a decent size when they get a charge off.  In a standard DW or DoubleWing list where they will drop with their compatriots, 5-6 is a perfect number to run with.

 

Usually DW units want to be small (funny that we've been calling for 10-man squads for so long :p ) but with Belial's ability, if you run him in a list where DW are more of a backup than the main event, you get a lot more out of grouping them together and using his precision to place a big unit exactly where it will hurt the enemy the most and disrupt them.  Since they soak fire so well I think doing something similar with an 8-man DWK squad would be a fun little diversion tactic in some cases.  Chances are the enemy will over-focus on them and kill 2-4, so once the smoke has cleared you still have a unit large enough to be a threat in the back lines while the main push of your army closes the pincer.