Lysander, Chapter Tactics, and Stubborn.

[PaganLinuxGeek]

I see blurbs here, and hear player state that Lysander is bad for tactics because I lose "ATSKNF".

Frankly I do not completely understand. I mean I get that his chapter tactics replace the standard ATSKNF with Stubborn.

I've reread the stubborn USR in the rule book (page 43 for those following at home).

 

"Many warriors live and die according to the principle of 'death before dishonour'. Seldom do such warriors take a backward step in the face of danger.

 

When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale checks or pinning tests, they ignore any leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead."

 

Now The first bit (in italics and descriptive) sounds brave and Rambo-like. However if you read the actual rule printed in normal text. I don't see anything stating that units will not fall back. It SEEMS like my units would take a moral check (2d6) against the leadership. (Now flip to page 29 in the rulebook) So lets assume that I've lost 25% of a unit during an assault and must take a moral test. Assume that I've suffered 2 more wounds than the other combatants and my sergeant is still alive. As I understand it, with Lysander I would take a leadership test with a UNMODIFIED LEADERSHIP of 9 and if I roll higher I will not hold ground. Now granted I have a greater chance to hold my ground, but that doesn't mean I will. I could roll higher. If so then my unit would fall back until their next movement phase and then test (unmodified) leadership again. If they pass leadership (9) then I move 3" and cannot "run" in the shooting phase, nor charge in assault phase, and can only fire snap-shots (BS 1, and no template, or blast marker shots) that turn.

 

Am I misunderstanding this?

[Gentlemanloser]

Chapter Tactics doesn't replace ATSKNF with stubborn. It replaces Combat Tactics.

[YAK]

YES you are..... sorta.... you trade combat tactics for stubborn not ATSKNF. so you test on unmodiryed leadership and can't choose to auto fail. you still regroup like a normal marine with ATSKNF.

[PaganLinuxGeek]

So to dumb it down even further:

WITHOUT Lysander, I can CHOOSE to lose an assault, fall back (2d6) directly towards my table edge. On my next turn I regroup automatically, move 3" and fire snap-shoots only, cannot assault.

WITH Lysander, I lose the choice, HAVE TO TAKE an (unmodified) leadership test, and proceed accordingly.

 

Not nearly as bad I was lead to believe...

[Seahawk]

WITHOUT Lysander, I can CHOOSE to lose an assault, win the Sweeping Advance roll, fall back (2d6) directly towards my table edge. On my next turn I regroup automatically, move 3" and can move 6" if desired, shoot as normal, and assault as normal.

Fixed that for you. ;)

[DarkGuard]

This is more of a tactical question here, as the rules here are not in question.

 

Basically, it boils down to tactics and preference. Some people want their units to always hold their ground, in which case Lysander is a fine choice.

 

Others, myself included, like to be able to pull their units out of a tricky situation. That's what Combat Tactics gives you, and Stubborn takes away. ATSKNF and Combat Tactics mesh perfectly, especially in this edition, to get your Marines out of tricky situations. Many don't like their Marines in combat, they want them shooting. Combat Tactics provides that, Stubborn means you're more likely to stay in combat.

 

I'd suggest you re-read the rules for ATSKNF. As Seahawk has pointed out, you've misunderstood them, which is likely colouring your perceptions of this issue.

[Kastor Krieg]

He's the best choice for DA Allies, since there's Grim Resolve (no choice to lose Morale; plus Stubborn) anyway.

[PaganLinuxGeek]

Just re-read the codex entries for ATSKNF and Combat Tactics.

 

ATSKNF = Automatically regroup, do not suffer penalties (can move, shoot, and assault as normal) after having done so. If caught be sweeping advance they are not removed as causalities but fight on.

 

Combat Tactics = Can CHOSE to continue hand to hand combat or "fail moral check and fall back" (at the start of next turn would auto-regroup, move, shoot, assault as usual)

 

Stubborn removes the "morale check pass/fail choice" and remove modifiers to leadership checks.

 

Do I have this right?

[Axagoras]

Death before dishonor. I love lysander and the never taking a step back fits the fluff of most of the marine armies.

[DarkGuard]

Just re-read the codex entries for ATSKNF and Combat Tactics.

 

ATSKNF = Automatically regroup, do not suffer penalties (can move, shoot, and assault as normal) after having done so. If caught be sweeping advance they are not removed as causalities but fight on.

 

Combat Tactics = Can CHOSE to continue hand to hand combat or "fail moral check and fall back" (at the start of next turn would auto-regroup, move, shoot, assault as usual)

 

Stubborn removes the "morale check pass/fail choice" and remove modifiers to leadership checks.

 

Do I have this right?

 

Correct. It doesn't remove the auto re-group, don't count as moving stuff. Also, use the rulebook for ATSKNF, as it's more recent (although I believe they're pretty much the same anyway).

[pyroknight]

Its not that Lysnader (or Kantor) is bad. It's that Combat tactics is so good in this edition, that losing it feels like a penalty.

 

If you know your playstyle, then stubborn can serve you just fine.

[PaganLinuxGeek]

I have a related question. During an apoc game one of my (space marine) units failed an assault (took more wounds than they inflicted) and had to fall back. Upon my next movement phase I told the other players that I was going to regroup and proceed as normal. I was told that as long as an enemy unit was within 6" of the unit falling back they would NOT regroup and continue to fall back towards my table edge. I've reviewed the rule book and am unable to find this. Is this accurate in 6th edition and I'm missing it, or is it an older edition rule removed? If it matters Lysander was on the board as was a chapter master hq.

[pyroknight]

I have a related question. During an apoc game one of my (space marine) units failed an assault (took more wounds than they inflicted) and had to fall back. Upon my next movement phase I told the other players that I was going to regroup and proceed as normal. I was told that as long as an enemy unit was within 6" of the unit falling back they would NOT regroup and continue to fall back towards my table edge. I've reviewed the rule book and am unable to find this. Is this accurate in 6th edition and I'm missing it, or is it an older edition rule removed? If it matters Lysander was on the board as was a chapter master hq.

 

This is an old rule from 5th edition. It no longer exists.

It does not matter how close an enemy is, space marines can always regroup.

[PaganLinuxGeek]

AHA! Explains why I could not find it in the codex or rulebook.