"Lost" Chapters

[Kol Saresk]

Or rather lost fluff would be more specific. Anyway, for kicks and giggles, I was looking through Legio Imprint 2: The Eye of Terror and came across the names of the Renegade Chapters. Curious to see if some, like the Terror Lords, had some more information, I was surprised to see that others while surviving in name, had seemed to have "lost" their background. For example, many(or few) might remember the Steel Cobras, a Space Marine Chapter that was excommunicated for worshiping the Emperor as a snake. And yet, other than in the Imprint, all I can find is "The Steel Cobras are a Space Marine Chapter created in the Twenty-Third Founding." with Forgeworld's Imperial Armour Volume Nine cited as a source. So I was just wondering, is there something there that removes the Steel Cobras original fluff?

 

Are there any other Renegade Chapters or named Warbands that have experienced this fate? Such as the Knights of Blood whose actions are recorded, but no mention is made of the fact that they were once a Blood Angels Successor?

[Octavulg]

More likely whoever compiled the other sources lacked the dedication, fervor and sheer lunacy of the Legio Imprint's crack researchers.

 

Slightly more seriously, people underestimate older sources (and they're harder to get one's hands on). So they get ignored, even when they're flat-out better (which they often are). Honestly, there's almost more neat little tidbits about Space Marines in the 3e Codex than in the 4e and 5e ones put tother.

 

Yes, I'm serious.

 

EDIT:

 

And besides, why cite something that was produced by the studio when you could spend time transcribing a weak Black Library novel's plot? <_<

[Kol Saresk]

Well in the case of the Steel Cobras, it's more like Forgeworld's fluff(which is apparently just the name) superseded and erased the older fluff of why they became Renegades. Since a similar event happened in the case of Periclitor due to virtually the exact same fluff conflict, I was just wondering if there was actually something that the newer fluff was different from the old and it followed the "New is 'canon'" rule or what. In the case of Knights of Blood, the massacres they were involved in and were mentioned in the Renegades Sons IA article are still mentioned, but since the most recent thing about them is a picture with their name in the 4e Chaos Codex, it;s almost like most of the older stuff was just dropped for some reason, like the fact that they were Blood Angels Successors or that even after they went Renegade they still fought alongside the Blood Angels in a battle against Hive Fleet Leviathan, a fact I believe the Imprint cited as the Blood Angels 5e Codex, which is actually more recent so it should definitely be up there.

 

A pointer for BL however would actually be the Sons of Malice. When Malal was disowned by GW, the Sons lost their fluff. But it was a BL short story that officially "retconned" it back into existence, not GW.

[Sinners Red]

The Knights of Blood are listed as Blood Angel Successors in the 5e codex and are 'decreed Renegade'.

 

The further back I go with my purchases of GW/BL literature, I am also noticing things that have been changed or just completely forgotten. The reason for this is probably because of staff/writer changes and no one really wanting to pick something up where someone else left off. Kinda like Booster Gold in the New 52, he's completely forgotten about his time traveling adventures (and most sad of all Ted Kord). 

 

I think I also read somewhere on the internet that the 'true' WH40k universe is the one that comes from rule books/codex that GW releases. Case and point being Captains Titus and Sicarius. Captains of the same company at the same time.

[Kol Saresk]

Well in the case of comics, specifically DC Comics and Marvel, there are no "retcons." When something changes, it's written off as being one of a million different parallel universes. Hence why the new brand is called "Universe 52" and things have become so drastically altered, like Kyle Rayner having seven flipping power rings and no longer being a "Green Lantern" as well as many other things. Like a Hal Jordan who was shooting down invading Amazons.

 

As far as what "true" 40k is, it doesn't exist. In order for there to be a "true" 40k there would have to be a "canon" 40k. As even GW cannot stay consistent, looking for "canon" is pointless in my opinion as it does not exist. As for picking what is "primary" or "takes precedence," I believe the best way I heard it was "Your reality is your perception." Basically, if you think GW is "canon," well that's your choice. If you think it is all equal and whatever is current is what exists.

 

Although, I find it funny that the first reply is "It's BL's fault," the second one lists an example of what I am asking: "What else has GW screwed up?" Or more specifically, "what has GW added or done that the wikis have not put up?

 

Example: Some of the wikis(such as Lexicanum), only have the Knights of Blood having the information in the 4th Edition CSM Codex. Which is weird, because as I already pointed out, that the 5e Blood Angels Codex added that they were Blood Angels Successors who were made Renegade due to losing control on one too many battlefields, yet still responded to defending Baal from Hive Fleet Leviathan.

 

Another one would be the Sons of Malice. First created with heavy suggestion of being servants of a 40k Malal. But then GW retconned Malal out of existence. Now, thanks to BL, Malal only exists as a minir warp entity(in others a Chaos God who is not on the same level as the Great Four) known as Malice.

 

Captain Titus of the Second Company, sponsored by GW, made by Relic. Captain Sicarius, made by GW. Nowhere is BL even involved. So to be honest, this adds to my belief that relying solely on GW for "canon" is a rather fallible belief.

 

But this is all besides the point. This is more of an effort to form a mini-compendium to try and find which Chapters(or more specifically Renegade Warbands) that GW has directly retconned and what updates the wikis have or have not kept up with.

[Vesper]

 

Another one would be the Sons of Malice. First created with heavy suggestion of being servants of a 40k Malal. But then GW retconned Malal out of existence. Now, thanks to BL, Malal only exists as a minir warp entity(in others a Chaos God who is not on the same level as the Great Four) known as Malice.

 

 

That is not what happened.

First thing first, Malal was part of the WFB Chaos fluff. The guy how made Malal just left GW and took the rights with him, making Malal impossible to exploit. So technically, it hasn't been retconed, it is just left where it was back then. Malal is still canon, but you'll never see something written on him.

By the time of 3.5, the awesome folks who made the codex thought it would be pretty cool to bring some ol'Malal goodies to 40k, and they created the Sons of Malice (with the signature color scheme and the "Malice" which is an hint for the old timers. They were also expanded in an IA on chapters turned traitors.

It was only after some time that BL published an okay novel on them.

[Kol Saresk]

True and not true. The guy who created Malal left. The rights went nowhere. GW was concerned that he would do something if they continued to publish Malal so they just left him be while makin two new Chaos Gods that were complete blowovers to take his place. Yes, there is the Dreadaxe in 3.5. But no mention is made of a connection to Malal, even though its original, Fantasy version was clearly made out to be a daemon weapon aligned with Malal. Looking at the IA article of the Sons of Malice right now, I can truthfully say that no mention of Malal is made in their background. Just that the have a halved black-and-white skull motif and a black-and-white checkered armor, both of which are, like I said, reminescent of Malal's Fantasy incarnation and their attitude of attacking "fellow" Chaos Marines is not only reminescent of their behavior as Chaos Marines, but also of the Followers of Malal in Fantasy. As Malal is never mentioned, it is wrong to say that he was introduced. As such, his "official" introduction and only mention in 40k background is the BL short story The Labyrinth by Richard Ford, found in the Heroes of the Space Marines. Malal/Malice is not found in the 3.5 Codex and he Sons of Malice are only mentioned by their paint scheme, which is shown on page 76 I believe.

[Sinners Red]

Well in the case of comics, specifically DC Comics and Marvel, there are no "retcons." When something changes, it's written off as being one of a million different parallel universes. Hence why the new brand is called "Universe 52" and things have become so drastically altered, like Kyle Rayner having seven flipping power rings and no longer being a "Green Lantern" as well as many other things. Like a Hal Jordan who was shooting down invading Amazons.

...

...

But this is all besides the point. This is more of an effort to form a mini-compendium to try and find which Chapters(or more specifically Renegade Warbands) that GW has directly retconned and what updates the wikis have or have not kept up with.

 

Well the thing with Booster is that he and the Flash were some of the major catalysts that caused the universe to reset. And the '52' weekly did reintroduce the multiverse to DC, the impression that I got was that Flash Point reduced the universes to only 2 (that we know of so far), and introduced Stormwatch and many Wild Cats characters (Were you as disappointed with Grifter as I was?).

 

But right that is way besides the point.

 

I would be interested in helping you assemble such a compendium. With sources and other such things. Let me know how I can help.

[Vesper]

True and not true. The guy who created Malal left. The rights went nowhere. GW was concerned that he would do something if they continued to publish Malal so they just left him be while makin two new Chaos Gods that were complete blowovers to take his place. Yes, there is the Dreadaxe in 3.5. But no mention is made of a connection to Malal, even though its original, Fantasy version was clearly made out to be a daemon weapon aligned with Malal. Looking at the IA article of the Sons of Malice right now, I can truthfully say that no mention of Malal is made in their background. Just that the have a halved black-and-white skull motif and a black-and-white checkered armor, both of which are, like I said, reminescent of Malal's Fantasy incarnation and their attitude of attacking "fellow" Chaos Marines is not only reminescent of their behavior as Chaos Marines, but also of the Followers of Malal in Fantasy. As Malal is never mentioned, it is wrong to say that he was introduced. As such, his "official" introduction and only mention in 40k background is the BL short story The Labyrinth by Richard Ford, found in the Heroes of the Space Marines. Malal/Malice is not found in the 3.5 Codex and he Sons of Malice are only mentioned by their paint scheme, which is shown on page 76 I believe.

 

Malice was clearly called Malal in The Labyrinth ? That novel was so meh that I could have missed it, but it really seems to me that he sticked with Malice, as Malal is a taboo word.

You're forcing open doors, I've never said that Malal was brought in 40k as it was in the early WFB. Malal goodies = Dreadaxe, Sons of Malice (their behaviour and their colour scheme) and Malice itself (basically Malal with another name). Just like the other gods have several names, we could almost make the very same conclusion with Malice, arguing that it is probably another name for Malal. Yet nobody can deny the obvious inspiration for Malice. And that, it has been done by Chamber and Haines.

And Malice as a deity was introduced by the IA or during the EoT campaign.

[Kol Saresk]

Currently, it's been a while(read a very long time) since I have kept up with the DC multiverse. I find myself looking up characters and their various backgrounds all the time.

 

But yes, ultimately I am looking for examples of the "modern backgrounds" that either directly retcon their previous background, add to it(like in the case of the Knights of Blood) or their background has simply been "left behind" because it was two or three editions out of print and nothing new has been added so all that is left is their color scheme and maybe a symbol, if it existed.(like in the case of the Steel Cobras) Things like that. Preferably, "before and after" sources would be appreciated. e.g. "In the 3.5 Edition of the Chaos Space Marines, the Daemon Prince Periclitor was introduced as a background character with no alignment to any God(s) or any faction. In an unpublished event card of the Eye of Terror Campaign, he was going to be aligned with the Night Lords Chapter. In Forgeworld's Imperial Armour Volume Nine he was officially aligned with the Word Bearers as a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided." Or something like that.

 

Vesper, in the short story he was only referred to as "Malice," but a rather clear connection of his and Malal's symbol are both a black-and-white halved skull. Like I said, he was retconned into a Minor Warp Entity in order to keep up with the current GW-published fluff of there "being only four Gods of Chaos." I can see no mention of him in any of the IA material I have access to, which simply means either I don't have access to that specific part of the IA article, or he is in the EoT campaign background, which I have access to none of. However, if that is the case, I would love to see it as I always enjoy reading "new" background material.

 

EDIT: The direct lack of a connection between the Dreadaxe and the Sons of Malice in 3.5 and the IA articles to Malal would, to me, mean that in the case of the Dreadaxe, it is not the same Dreadaxe from Fantasy and the Sons of Malice are simply Chaos Marines who wear the colors and symbol of Malal even though they are not stated as being devoted to him, or any other being until The Labyrinth, in which it is said that they are devoted to Malice. Since even before that short story was published, Malal/Malice were interchangeable names for the same being, it is more of a definitive connection that the 40k Dreadaxe having a similar nature to its Fantasy counterpart while its Fantasy version is explicitly stated(to my knowledge) as being connected to Malal while the 40k version is not. However, one can argue that one entity being named Malal and another named Malice does not mean they are the same being and as such, it could be said that Malice is simply a modern reminiscence of Malal rather than his "resurrection."

[Trevak Dal]

 

The Knights of Blood are listed as Blood Angel Successors in the 5e codex and are 'decreed Renegade'.

 

The further back I go with my purchases of GW/BL literature, I am also noticing things that have been changed or just completely forgotten. The reason for this is probably because of staff/writer changes and no one really wanting to pick something up where someone else left off. Kinda like Booster Gold in the New 52, he's completely forgotten about his time traveling adventures (and most sad of all Ted Kord). 

 

I think I also read somewhere on the internet that the 'true' WH40k universe is the one that comes from rule books/codex that GW releases. Case and point being Captains Titus and Sicarius. Captains of the same company at the same time.

 

 

I'm with ADB on the "Everything is true, and nothing is true" bit. And I prefer Captain Titus to Sicarius because he didn't have a bunch of excessive decoration on his armor and seemed very practical. And Space Marine was a damn fun game (they need to fix that horde mode though-or add in the options so that you can have infinite respawns to offset their not wanting to let you have ammo and throwing HORDES OF GUYS at you)

[Vesper]

Malal was a minor warp entity, even when he was a god in WFB. He's not as mainstream as the big 4, and he has far less followers than them. Then, many warp entities have followers. They are all gods, to some degree because of their very nature. The big 4 just get the biggest flow of power. There's a story, in a Warriors of Chaos army book of a Daemon prince of Khorne that is worshipped in its former tribe. I don't want to make the topic go into a "Are the chaos gods really gods ?" or "What is the definition of god in 40k ?", but I absolutly don't think Malice is too different from good ol'Malal.

In the end, there is still too few pieces of background  on the Warp, the gods, and Malice itself (and the Chaos warbands) to end up with clear and definite aswers... But stuff about marines shooting and being bombastic, yeah, we have a lot of those...