Forging a warband. How does it work? Who does it best?

[Death Spectre]

In the process of working on my Death Spectres army I got distracted by the quality of the Dark Vengeance miniatures, so have started putting together a small army based on the miniatures I like the look of. This included some of the new Raptors, and Forgeworld World Eaters and Death Guard Plague Marines.

However it left me with the conundrum of what Chaos warband to select as the "core" or base of the army. I like the fluff and would like to have a bit of a story in my mind when putting the army together, to explain how a bunch of CSMs from different legions are following the one lord.

 

What I am trying to determine, from the fluff, is which Traitor Legion or other warband would be most likely to attract cult troops to assist them and most effective in retaining their service (until the inevitable betrayal, of course!) I've read a number of the short stories in the anthologies, such as the "Skull Harvest" run by Huron Blackheart, and the Night Lords trilogy by ADB includes the Tyrant using them as part of his attack on the Marines Errant fortress-monastery. Obviously Abaddon is the most successful in pulling together different factions to follow his Black Crusades.

 

That said, it would seem strange to me for groups aligned to opposing Chaos gods to work collaboratively. I can't see any World Eaters or adherents of Khorne happily agreeing to follow a lord of the Emperors Children or any other warband aligned to Slaanesh, or obeying the orders of a psyker or sorceror. This makes me more inclined to choose one of the unaligned legions as a unifying force, but even there the differing attitudes and approaches of the various groups would make it difficult to forge a unified group. Or perhaps that is the ultimate point, that any such group is a temporary and fragile alliance of convenience when interests of disparate groups align themselves?

 

I suspect that the personality of the individual warband leader would count the most when attracting other groups to his banner, including personal charisma, power to enforce reprisals for disobedience, or tactical accumen that offers a chance of success and profit. But I'd be really interested in the opinions and suggestions of others on the B&C. What Traitor Legion or Warband would be most likely to be successful in earning the retaining the allegiance and service of other warbands and cult troops? Black Legion? How do they do it? Bribery? Threats? Winning a challenge of champions? How would Night Lords, Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors be able to justify having a Dark Apostle in their ranks? Can I choose one of these as more likely to serve as a core group, or just create a new warband and its fluff from scratch?

[Kol Saresk]

Have you heard Perfection by Nick Kyme yet? In it, a group of Khorne Berzerkers known as the Hellhounds agree to help a Slaaneshi warband known as the Incarnadine Host, who were led by five former Empero's Children Marines collectively known as "the Flawless." Now, let's ignore the fact that after the goal was achieved both groups turned on each other. Let's look at the first bit. They joined forces, regardless of how long. Why? Because they had a similar purpose. That is the key to creating a warband. Chaos Space Marines are about elevating themselves, and very rarely does that vision include those around them as it may be the most "loyal" brother who carries the sharpest knife.

 

But that's the key, anyone who is able to unite even the smallest of groups for any period of time by giving them a common goal is the exact leader a warband needs. The more successful leaders are able to keep their warbands united for longer periods of time, whether it be with the same goal they started out with, or a series of new goals. So yes, the personality of the leader is important, but the why of the warband is even more important.

 

So instead of focusing on what Legion/Renegade Chapter the leader is from, let's focus on his purpose, or rather the purpose of the warband. Is it to burn the Imperium to the ground? Is it to venerate one of or all of the gods? Is it simply to rave and plunder? Is it to look for a good fight? Is it to fight for slavestock? Is it to simply fight for new technology or forbidden artifacts and texts? The identity and purpose of the warband are more often than not the same.

 

Let's look at some examples. The Dragon Warriors from Nick Kyme's Salamander series. A group of Renegades, mutants, traitors and xenos who were sworn to destroy the Salamanders. Now, Nihilan and several of his followers had personal grudges against the Salamanders. Some simply wanted to fight. And a select few were simply loyal to Nihilan to the point they would do anything for him. But ultimately, they all gathered around each other and to his flag for the ultimate purpose of fighting the Salamanders, regardless of their motivation.

 

Here's another example, the Devourers from Anthoney Reynolds' Chosen of Khorne, an audio-drama. In it, we see that by the champions presented, there are xenos, Traitor Guardsmen, mutants, chrono-gladiators, a skinless woman with a sword of blue fire and a psyker of some kind.(the psyker was described as a little boy with cherubic features who was able to tear apart World Eaters with a simple thought) The leader had gathered them together with the promise of leading a Blood Crusade against the Imperium and was trying to gain one more warband to his flag before he marched. While the motivations of each group may be unknown, what they were gathered to accomplish wasn't. The Warband was going to lead a bloody fight against the Imperium in the name of Khorne. For whatever reason, the disparate groups shown had united in that purpose.

 

So first, that's what you need. What is the "purpose" of your warband? Why are they gathering together under one banner? From there, pick a color scheme. It could be your own. Or you could pick a known Legion/Renegade Chapter color scheme.

 

For example, you could have a warband known as the "Ebony Eye."

 

For fluff, you could have something like:

 

The Renegades and Traitors that make up the Ebony Eye were once members of the Black Legion. However, growing disillusioned that Abaddon would be the one to lead them to victory against the Imperium they have since left their former brethren. Now, they are constantly moving further and further into the heart of the Imperium, striking high value military targets with the intention of killing the Imperium with a "death by one thousand cuts" strategy due to their limited size and resources. Despite this flaw, they have overcome the difficulties and claimed many victories. One such victory was the successful destruction of Battlefleet Taurus in the Myonagi Sector in the Solar Segmentum.

 

And then just come up with some other stuff that goes along with that. I litereally came up with the above off the top of my head. Now, from personal experience I wouldn't say that it is always that easy, but it can happen.

 

But that's the gist of it. A warband isn't always about where it came from, it's mostly about where it is going and whether or not there is room for others to join the ride. For example, a tradilitionist Word Bearers Host will most likely be made up of only Word Beares woth either only Marked, or UnMarked CSM depending on you talked to about Word Bearers and their thoughts on what Marks are. A non-traditionalist Word Bearer would be like the ones seen in a picture in the 4th Edition C:CSM, whichi showed some Word Bearers Chaos Marines and Night Lord Raptors fighting under the command of a Chaos Lord Agannor. And depending on who you talked to, a traditionalist Night Lords Warband will either be made up of Raptors or Unmarked Troops while a non-traditionalist will add Marks, Cult Units and maybe even allied Renegades and Traitors.

 

So, first thing I would recommend is coming up with a purpose, an identity for your warband. From there, peruse the fluff. See if there is already a warband in existence that matches your idea. If you like the color scheme and the existing fluff, you can use that one. Or still decide to strike out on your own with a DYI warband. If you don't like the already existing warband, again create your own.

 

EDIT: Now, you will see some people refer to this as "Happy Chaos Family." But remember the fact from Perfection about the warbands turning on each other once the goal was achieved, the one I told you to ignore? Keep that in mind when creating your warband. While on the tabletop it will mean virtually nothing unless you are playing a narrative campaign, but in the background, along with any fanfic you may or may not create, it adds a dynamic that at any point in time, the warband is likely to change as a new leader comes into power by filling the power vacuum or a coup d'etat. It may even become disbanded as the purpose of the warband is achieved or rendered null and void. So while that may never happen to yours if it is a tabletop army, it is certainly an interesting background dynamic to keep in mind.

[derpasaurus]

i guess you would consider my night lords warband to be a bit "non-traditional."

i love the story, and the colors, and just about everything about the night lords. i'm looking for something that is primarily fun to play,and secondly at least remotely competitive. i like to win on occasion, after all. 

 

bearing this in mind, my army composition has shifted and grown quite a bit beyond what i initially wanted, but it still fits my plan. my story is very basic in structure, but it evolves as the army does. i've been facing dark angels a lot lately, even before the new codex hit. i have decided they found a few pockets of fallen and have been trying to persuade them to join their ranks, which is why my curent battles are all about trying not to be smashed by the 1st and 2nd companies of dark angels. my original lord wasn't doing so hot, so huron blackheart decided to make an appearance and beat them into shape. for a price, of course. the "brothers" more or less threw the old man under the bus and rallied under huron. but who knows how long it will take before huron leaves them for dead or they grow tired of his scheming and bail on him?

 

to me this both explains my unit composition and hq choice changes, as well as makes an excellent illustration of kol's above point. huron is not going to stick with my lowly, scavenging, back-stabbing rabble FOREVER, but as long as people don't mind me running named characters, he's gonna be in my tabletop army, cos frankly the guy's a beast.

 

also, i run marks on most of my troops, but i use them to represent skills gained through their service in the long war. the raptors have Khorne, and most of the time my base troops have Slaanesh. this is used not to show dedication to a god, but as a tabletop representation of their love of slaughter and keen tactical mindsets.

 

i'm going to get some models to use as cultists, but they are to represent slaves and POWs that the night lords throw out in front of them as a first wave meat shield rather than fanatical devotees of the ruinous powers. i have a forgefiend and a heldrake, because those things are perfectly effective tools of terror and easily controlled. i even have an old black reach dreadnought i use for counts-as helbrute. i call it one of the old unit leaders from pre-betrayal. if there were a way to make him my hq i'd totally do that, lol

 

so for a strictly by the book "never use marks or daemons" night lords army it's pretty shabby. but this one, while still holding its core beliefs by bleeding the imperium at any opportunity, no matter how small, and not falling to the corrupting touch of chaos or being seduced into the slavery of one or more of the gods, is still moderately competitive in my meta, unique enough to satisfy my tastes, and super fun to play. (the most important part.)

one of the best things i've heard regarding this game is something to the extent of "the 40k universe is huge. if you can think of it, it's probably happened somewhere. nothing is impossible."

[Spaz431]

Derp, the good side to us night lords players and marks is that it shows a common ideal between night lords models. To explain, I believe I'm paraphrasing from kol sarek here, but marks show favor or attention from different gods upon groups of like minded troops. As a night lords player I see it similarly but also with a little splash of fluff mixed in. i.e. Khorne allied were butchers of men just to spill blood similar to serial mass murders. Slaneesh allied were the rapists and sexual deviants. Nurgle allied were the poisoners always creating new poisons and new ways to inject that poison. I have no idea yet on how to explain Tzeentch, possible the liars who tricked "friends" to go do a mission they knew they wouldn't return from to move themselves farther in the gangs of Nostamo.

[derpasaurus]

yeah he said something like that before, i recall. like the gods have taken notice, even tho the troops may not be worshiping them. that's a cool idea, and it keeps coming up. i actually kinda ran with that, tho it's a minor point for my army. the troops don't worship anything, but the gods have their eyes on some of the squads... :O

i use it primarily like this: the raptors have khorne because they revel in the terror the hunt itself causes to the quarry, and the fear the butchery that follows instills in those that happen by the killing field after. since they are so savage, i represent this with the extra attacks from rage and counter attack.
the chosen squad has slaanesh because they are the close combat experts, they have such skill in the art of hand to hand combat that they [nearly] always outmaneuver their prey. (this is the group that huron runs with, as well) 

if i have points, i give my troops a mark as well, usually slaanesh. they're plasma crazy so they don't assault all the time, but the i5 has saved their butts more times than i can count.

 

so basically, the guys are just "that good" at what they do, and the gods are starting to take notice.

 

incidentally, my force is made up primarily of former members of 2nd company. i'm going through and putting very crude legion/chapter/claw markings on some shoulder pads. the simplicity represents [my total lack of freehand skill and] the fact that they've had to replace a great deal of their gear and are stubbornly holding on to their old ways of doing things. 

[Kol Saresk]

To be fair, I got the idea from somewhere else. I just remember someone here on the Chaos Ascendant subforum mentioning it and thinking "Yeah, that makes total sense."

 

And you do see an example of that in the Night Lords trilogy with Uzas and Cyrion, although you see it more in Cyrion with the fact that he never once praises Slaanesh or even mentions him in any way, shape or form, yet Slaanesh has still Marked him. I'd never consider him a Champion of Slaanesh, or even a servant. But I'd definitely consider him Marked.

 

Now, personally I don't see any problem with count-as. I usually present that view as an alternative so people who don't like count-as can still have their Undivided armies and not resort to "count-as." Whether or not someone does it is entirely up to them.

[minigun762]

I think it's easiest to work with the Undivided legions but even that is not a perfect answer. Word Bearers for example are fairly insular and I don't believe they would be likely to form any significant ties with non-legion members.

 

To be honest, all of your ideas can work as potential justification for binding multiple warbands together. Simple brute force and fear goes a long way, though it might make a future betrayal all the more likely. A common goal is possible, after all we're all here to burn the Imperium but there is a lot of room for (violent) debate on the best method for that.

[derpasaurus]

i think it all boils down to the personality of the warband's leader in the end. is he charismatic/terrifying/badass enough to encourage/force people to fight for him regardless of their allegiances? a few of the named characters surely are, and if you create your own lord, just make your fluff say he is! examples of why he should be taken so seriously make it even better :D

 

i've always liked the idea of internal struggles or even open conflict within the ranks when it comes to chaos, it just seems so natural. how long can it last? who will come out on top in the event of a coup? 

go nuts, have fun, DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!

[Lord_Caerolion]

Word Bearers for example are fairly insular and I don't believe they would be likely to form any significant ties with non-legion members.

Word Bearers are the Legion that routinely sent out members to other Legions to instruct them in the proper ways of the Chaos Gods. I can very much see a reason for why there would be non-Word Bearers in a warband led by a Dark Apostle. 

 

The important part of making a warband though is to remember that you don't have to follow stereotypes. Don't feel that you cannot have Nurgle-worshipping Iron Warriors just because "the Iron Warriors are an Undivided Legion". My own warband, which I initially created to go against everything hated about warbands in the last codex (it was an Iron Warrior warband that worshipped Slaanesh, had completely fallen to Chaos corruption, had renamed itself, changed their colours, changed their symbol, and had cut all ties to the wider Legion) obviously isn't constrained by the notions that a Slaanesh warband can only be from the Emperors Children, or perhaps the Black Legion. In other words, don't feel you have to make your warband indistinguishable from the Legion it was once a part of.

 

The most central thing though, is who the leader is. A Chaos warband isn't so much an army as a cult of personality, in many cases. It is the Chaos Champion at the heart of the warband that keeps it together, promising glory and the chance that, in watching the Champion, the Gods might see you in their peripheral vision, that keeps the warband from fragmenting. It's his glory that attracts new members. It's his strength that stops it tearing itself apart, his vision that directs it, and often his worship that defines and inspires it.

[Brother Ambroz]

Man with this sort of stuff the only limit is your own imagination. Just pick whatever legion/chapter you like best for your core. Then you can make your own fluff up to explain where the others have come from. Whatever path your warband takes from there can go from brothers in arms fighting for one another (or a particularly worthy leader) to a warband full of warriors with knives behind their backs, just waiting for the right moment to turn on one another.

[Death Spectre]

Thanks for the considered replies everyone. I like to have a good sense of the fluff behind an army as it makes all the extra effort of doing conversions and painting details more satisfying.

 

One of the things that may have limited my thinking was the fact that the novels published have tended to focus on the known Legions and major warbands, probably because it limits the amount of exposition that the author needs to provide and simplifies the storytelling. Looking again at the Forgeworld Siege of Vraks trilogy, I was reminded how the original traitor legions have a tendency to fracture into different groups. Unfortunately the latest codex then suggests that to become a Plague Marine requires joining the Death Guard, which would seem to imply a degree of unity of purpose and loyalty for the cult troops.

 

The more I look at the published fluff the more I realise how fluid the pattern of alleigances and goals can be, which puts more and more pressure on the leader(s) of the warband. I'll have another look through the Black Crusade RPG and think about the motivation of the leaders to see if I can come up with a DIY warband.

[Brother Ambroz]

Most plague marines are Death Guard but they're not the only ones that know how to make Plague Marines. There are others mentioned as having the knowledge to create them and Abby always has the options to make them as well. At the same time though, your "Plague Marines" don't have to be Plague Marines. You could make them into marines with extra armor pieces or some sort of ghosts etc.

[Kol Saresk]

Or just severely diseased Nurgle Marines.

[minigun762]

 

Word Bearers for example are fairly insular and I don't believe they would be likely to form any significant ties with non-legion members.

Word Bearers are the Legion that routinely sent out members to other Legions to instruct them in the proper ways of the Chaos Gods. I can very much see a reason for why there would be non-Word Bearers in a warband led by a Dark Apostle. 

During the Heresy maybe, but I wasn't aware of that being a standard practice in the current timeline.

My understanding is that they tend to have a fair amount of contempt for any of the other traitor marines, either because they are wholly dedicated to a power or unfaithful heathens no better than the dogs of the corpse god.

 

But, I could be wrong.

 

 

As far as the original legions fracturing, I think that is consistent with the current view of what a warband is. In the same way that the 3rd company of the Ultramarines is still a part of the larger Ultramarines organization, so too can Chaos Lord McNasty's warband be tied to the World Eaters or Death Guard.

[Lord_Caerolion]

During the Heresy maybe, but I wasn't aware of that being a standard practice in the current timeline.

My understanding is that they tend to have a fair amount of contempt for any of the other traitor marines, either because they are wholly dedicated to a power or unfaithful heathens no better than the dogs of the corpse god.

 

Well, maybe this Dark Apostle was still attached to his "host" Legion when the Heresy broke out, and he ended up closer to his host Legion than to the Word Bearers, and chose to stay with them. Maybe some members of another Legion fall out from their wider Legion due to differences in worship, but remember the Dark Apostle who inducted them into their beliefs, and join his Host. Maybe the Dark Apostle converted some other Astartes.

There are easily ways to explain Word Bearers either in a warband primarily composed of members of another Legion, or as the leaders of a Warband that has absorbed others.

[Hazath]

I just don't see Dark Apostles joining other legions. They are just so attached to their primarch...

 

And I also can't imagine other legions accepting them either. Black Legion, perhaps..

 

No fluff that I know ever showed anything about non-Word Bearer Dark Apostle. Kelly just added Dark Apostle to fuel discussion, not for us to actually use them.

[Kol Saresk]

Yes and no. IIRC, the AL Commander in DoW: Soulstorm was referenced as a "Black Apostle of Chaos." I think what they have been trying to hit is that not all Dark Apostles are Word Bearers, which is a weird concept because up until this edition, all Dark Apostles have been Word Bearers while fallen Chaplains in other Legions/Chapters are either Lords or Sorcerers. I'd hazard that it was an attempt to bring in a new dynamic that failed miserably because everyone went "But Dark Apostles are Word Bearers....."

 

EDIT: While there is no fluff that I am aware stating that Dark Apostles or perhaps lower ranking Acolytes go on "missionaries," I also feel the need to point out that there is no fluff that I am aware that says they can't or don't.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

That does strike me as a way/baptism of fire method a apostle may use with any acoyaltes who are showing promise, almost too much promise, rather then kill them, he sends them out to convert the heathens and misguided, with those he converts forming a new host/needing to convert a certain number before being given support.

[Hazath]

@Kol_Saresk

 

Black Apostle? I don't recall such thing. Where did they say that?

 

I own the game, and the only thing I remember from Soul Storm is that chaos are mustache twirling villians and how they hated metal bawkses.

[Kol Saresk]

It was in his descriptor. Like if you were playing the campaign with the Chaos faction and you held the cursor over the Chaos character, it was in that little description box that popped up IIRC.

[Brother Ambroz]

IIRC in Deliverance Lost

 

 

Wasn't there a Dark Apostle that was attached to the Raven Guard at one point?

 

 

Even if it's true it's still only during the Heresy. Still though, fluff can be made with that.

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, the only Dark Apostle I recall being mentioned was the one in charge of the ship that Corax sent into a warp rift.

 

But still, it's not exactly a stretch of the imagination that a Warband that is constantly fighting alongside Word Bearers and shows the beginnings of "faith" for the Pantheon may be sent some sort of missionary to bring them into the fold of the Servants of Ruin.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I can imagine the likes of thousand sons and Word bearers could be good brokers for setting up alliances and such for some reason..

[Death Spectre]

I plan to include a Dark Apostle. However my take is that he was part of the rank and file who became a devotee to the Pantheon. My understanding is that the Word Bearers initiated the Chaplain program pre-heresy. From statements made by other characters in the Horus Heresy novels, I get the impression that several Legions adopted the practice of sending one of their own to spend time studying how the other legions fought. I understand that there is some real-world precedent for this sort of transfer.

 

I understand that it was a part of the Word Bearer approach that they sent their Chaplains, and that this was later to become part of their attempts to spead their faith in the Dark Powers.

However, seeing as the loyal Chapters maintain their own native Chaplains, I figure other warbands can have their own native religious leaders, but that this may be as much a self-appointed role or expression of an individual's faith, just like some would start dabbling in sorcery regardless of whether or not they had previously had psychic abilities.

However I don't see the Dark Apostle in my warband as having the same dominating leadership role as depicted in the Word Bearers series of novels. That is a part of their culture as a Legion, where religious faith had always been of central importance. I'd speculated about the notion of a sort of "Protestant Reformation" of Word Bearers, who rejected following a church-appointed religious leader in favour of a more egalitatarian faith. However it was difficult to envisage them rebelling against the will of Lorgar. They might rebell against and attempt to usurp power from a particular Apostle, but to change the entire way they relate to the faith seemed a bit of a stretch.

 

Besides, I want to paint the core group a different colour to the dried-blood red of the World Eater squad of berserkers.

[Excessus]

That was only the Thousand Sons that sent their members to study the other legions cultures, wasen't it? I remember Hathor Maat was very proud by an oath of moment that Fulgrim himself had written while he was on internship with the Emperor's Children and(vain as he is) wore it proudly on his chestplate.