Rad Grenades and Plasma weapons

[L30n1d4s]

6th edition has greatly increased the utility of plasma weapons, with lower cover saves across the board, the nerf to PWs against 2+ armor saves, and improvements to Rapid Fire weapons (in the case of the Plasma Gun).

 

While Dark Angels did not get as much "plasma love" as some people expected in their codex (though they did get Plasma Cannons on DW Terminators and the Land Speeder Vengeance), they did get access to a weapon that makes their plasma weaponry tremendously more useful: Rad Grenades on Ravenwing Grenade Launchers.

 

I believe the benefits of -1T are obvious to any 40K player, but even more than GKs with their Close Combat Rad Grenades, the option to reduce enemy Toughness during the shooting phase is a very significant benefit. For T3 troops (i.e. IG, eldar, DE, Tau, etc.), Rad grenades make them T2. This means that Bolters are wounding them on 2+s and causing ID for any unsaved wounds (take that, DE Shadowfields.... a little payback for massed poison weapons!!) .

 

For Dark Angels, fighting against the ever ubiquitous T4 MEQ armies, Rad grenades brings the targets down to T3.... meaning that S7 Plasma Weapons now cause ID (and ignore FNP... sorry BAngles) for every unsaved wound. This is obviously particularly useful against multi-wound models, like Tyranid Warriors, Paladins, ICs, etc. Nothing like killing the enemies super close combat Lord at Initiative 11 by shooting him with plasma and IDing him with one failed Invul save.

 

Even T5 models, like Nob Bikerz, Thunderwolves, MEQ Bikers, Plague Marines, etc. are significantly more vulnerable now, being reduced to T4, which means that Krak Missiles, Lascannons, Power Fists, and melta weapons now all ID them and/or don't get FNP.

 

Finally, even MCs have to sit up and take notice of Rad Grenades.... Nid MCs become T5 which, while still difficult to ID, can be taken down by Demolisher Cannons, DW Knights using Smite, etc. Also, reducing T6 to T5 means Plasma weapons go from wounding on 3+ to 2+, making them that much more effective.

[Ronin_eX]

Yeah, Black Knights are a nice force-multiplier with that GL.  Even the Land Speeder Vengeance can deal some damage with that pieplate if you soften things up with a Rad round first.  Imagine popping a rad grenade in to a unit of Paladins and dropping some plasma pie in their laps.  Gives me the warm fuzzies.

[MadMek83]

... and the fact when you you have put rad grenade into marine unit, done all rapid fire plasma-rerollable shots, you charge and soack them in s5 rending hits... cleaning whatever is left. Wounding on 2+ is golden!! Ravenwing Knights is one of the best and most useful units in C:DA atm and fit almost any possible list well.

[Sidewinder 3]

...Yes To all Pal ... I packed my Dark Angels with a lot of them, I did like the plasma weapons even when they sucked

[BrotherSamael]

They are one of the very impressive parts of the new codex for sure.

In general there are a lot of elements that are not necessarily overpowered on their own, the combination makes them very lethal indeed.

Think of the Nephilim bomb in addition to those grenades and a charge by DW knights using smite

[Ronin_eX]

They are one of the very impressive parts of the new codex for sure.

In general there are a lot of elements that are not necessarily overpowered on their own, the combination makes them very lethal indeed.

Think of the Nephilim bomb in addition to those grenades and a charge by DW knights using smite

The lovely thing about Rad grenades vs. T4 models. Well, if they only have a 4+ armour save to begin with, no need to even activate smite. T3 vs. S6AP4 will wreck face all on its own. This can be great against Chaos Marines (Bane), Ork Nobz and several other units will be very susceptible to this tactic. This will turn the Knight Master in to a wrecking ball against MEQ as well, since he is already AP3. If a marine character is lacking a 2+ save then he will be hitting them with an at-initiative powerfist, basically.

To say nothing about what this does to the Deathwing Champion, who becomes a character shredder all on his own.

[BrotherSamael]

They are one of the very impressive parts of the new codex for sure.

In general there are a lot of elements that are not necessarily overpowered on their own, the combination makes them very lethal indeed.

Think of the Nephilim bomb in addition to those grenades and a charge by DW knights using smite

The lovely thing about Rad grenades vs. T4 models. Well, if they only have a 4+ armour save to begin with, no need to even activate smite. T3 vs. S6AP4 will wreck face all on its own. This can be great against Chaos Marines (Bane), Ork Nobz and several other units will be very susceptible to this tactic. This will turn the Knight Master in to a wrecking ball against MEQ as well, since he is already AP3. If a marine character is lacking a 2+ save then he will be hitting them with an at-initiative powerfist, basically.

To say nothing about what this does to the Deathwing Champion, who becomes a character shredder all on his own.

I couldn't surpress an evil grin when reading this. The enemys of the unforgiven need to be afraid of us indeed.

[L30n1d4s]

Another thing that can be done is to use the Biomancy Discipline with a Biker Librarian attached to the Black Knights.

 

Almost every one of the Biomancy powers work very well with the Black Knights and their Rad Grenades:

 

1 - Iron Arm - Gives the unit a T6-T8, Eternal Warrior, 2W character to absorb high powered range weapons for the squad. Plus, if you give the Libby a Power Sword, you have a S5-S7 AP3 weapon for challenges and/or cutting through MEQs (combined with Rad Grenades and you can even cut down MCs easily)

 

2 - Enfeeble - Amazing in conjunction with Rad Grenades and Plasma Talons/Corvus Hammers. Not only are you dropping enemy Toughness by -2 (so T2 for most MEQs), but you are also dropping their Strength by -1.... so MEQs are wounding on 6+s against Black Knights, since the BKs are T5 and the MEQs are now S3.

 

3 - Endurance - Another tremendous power in conjunction with Bikers, as you suppliment their T5 and 3+ cover saves with FNP, making them even more survivable. Relentless doesn't help Bikers, but casting it on nearby Tacticals with a Banner of Devastation nearby is downright useful

 

4 - Life Leech - Good for adding even more low AP firepower (Libby doesn't come with Plasma Talons on his bike) and for rebuilding the Libby's wounds if het takes a hit

 

5 - Warp Speed - While Fleet has no real use for a Biker Libby, an additional D3 attacks and +D3 Initiative makes him great for adding close combat power, especially in challenges (on the charge, the Biker Libby would have 5-7 attacks at I5-7. With a force sword, anything but Termnators are almost guaranteed to die against the Libby's attacks (remember, rad grenades dropping toughness, making the Power Sword in essence S5).

 

6 - Haemorrage - Best used in conjunction with Rad Grenades and Enfeeble... if both of these hit a MEQ unit, then they are T2 and only passing their Toughness test 1/3 of the time. Against T3 units like Eldar, IG, SoB, etc, even characters are now down to T1 and very likely to lose a whole chain of wounds before the power burns out.

 

Primais - Smite - Decent power, but even better so with Rad Grenades, as now you are wounding on 3+s.

[MadDoc]

You know that Dark Angel Librarians don't get access to the Biomancy Discipline, right?

[L30n1d4s]

Excellent point... however, you can take allied SM or Blood Angel Biker Libbys, who do get Biomancy, and attach them to the Black Knights. Not as cheap as the DA Libby, but still very good value.

[Anabis_Xero]

can someone clarify exactly how the rad grenades work, do only the models under the template suffer the penatelies or is the entier unit? I might just be over thinking it but to me the wording in the codex is unclear... "Every model in a unit hit by one or more..."

[Ronin_eX]

It's is pretty clear, if a single model (or more) is hit by the Rad Grenade's blast then the entire unit is at -1T.  It triggers on the hit as well, so it takes effect before wounds are rolled, so even the firing unit gain the advantage.  But it affects the whole unit when it hits a model in it.

[EPK]

can someone clarify exactly how the rad grenades work, do only the models under the template suffer the penatelies or is the entier unit? I might just be over thinking it but to me the wording in the codex is unclear... "Every model in a unit hit by one or more..."

If you hit even one model in the unit, the entire unit is affected. If it only affected the models under the template, there would be no need to say "in a unit"

[CovertToaster]

Yeah that's the part that has me thinking they could nerf it if it's too powerful, after all is it:

 

"every model in a unit that is hit'

 

or "every model that is hit, that is in a unit that is hit"

 

Just remember that the first interpretation is the correct one until we see a FAQ and beware of rules lawyers.

 

Also, just for clarification, I believe that the second interpretation stretches things and I'm not specifically looking to run black knights and thus won't care regardless of what happens in any future FAQ's.

[Anabis_Xero]

Cool thanks guys thats kinda what I was thinking but then I started to overthink the wording and thats where i confused myself.

[CarbonBased]

can someone clarify exactly how the rad grenades work, do only the models under the template suffer the penatelies or is the entier unit? I might just be over thinking it but to me the wording in the codex is unclear... "Every model in a unit hit by one or more..."

I read it as: If a unit is hit by one or more, every model in the unit is effected.  I could be mistaken.

[facmanpob]

Well the wording in the rule wouldn't pass muster in a legal document as it is open to a certain level of interpretation, but applying Occam's razor to it you get the result that if the template lands over a model, then the whole unit is affected........ :)

[L30n1d4s]

As I understand it, just as several have posted in this thread, all it takes is a single model from a unit to be Hit (not even Wounded) by a Rad grenade in order for the Entire Unit to suffer the -1T penalty. I think that is both RAW and RAI and it is indeed a powerful force-multiplier, though not a broken one.

 

I think one of the areas DA might struggle with if they play Deathwing/Ravenwing or Doublewing pure is dealing with horde armies (i.e. massed CSM, IG Platoons out the Yazoo, Gaunt floods, Ork green tide, etc.). Standard of Devasation defintely helps the Ravenwing portion, but Deathwing is still struggling to put out enough Dakka to deal with pure numbers. This is especially the case when those hordes can get access to "cheap" survivability saves (i.e. Kustom Force Field for Orks, FNP for Gaunts, etc.). Grey Knights are in a similar boat to Death/Raven/Doublewing armies, as they too generally rely on small numbers of very capable, elite units which can be swamped by pure numbers. For GK, the answer is Psybolts, which turn their SBs into "Heavy Bolters lite"..... for Ravenwing or Deathwing, Rad grenades basically provide that same effect, making their small arms shooting do that much more damage, especially when it is Twin-Linked (i.e. Ravenwing bikes or Deathwing Veangeful Strike).