DWK in a non DW list

[Jack Hitchcock]

Hi guys! Yesterday I had my first game with the new codex (I win against chaos) and I used a list with a powerfull greenwing gunline with the banner of davastation to hold obj, and 1 DW squad, 1 DWK squad and 1 Black night squad to assault (not a very balanced list, but I want to try almost al the new toys that interested me).
Almost all the unit do their job, but I was very disapponited by the DWK. They come down the 1st turn with belial, take a lot of fire, and then died all in the 3rd turn (except belial, brutally killed by Khârn in the 4th).

Yes, they keep busy a lot of the enemy units, but the normal DW squad, with vengeful strike, split fire, and the scoring capability, seem to me a lot more userful than the DWK.

So I would like to know your opinion: even if the DWK are a really strong type of unit, do they worth in a non DW army and without a land rider?

Thank you

[Ronin_eX]

It will always depend on the list, really.  If you are playing a gunline then when those DWKs drop in they will likely be the only target worth pumping fire in to from the get go.  They will be out far ahead of the rest of the force and in the end they will probably be an expensive, but effective fire magnet.  Because no one want to touch them, they will hop up to the top of the fire priority list.

 

But if you field them in list archetypes like Doublewing, Ravenwing-heavy (lots of units to tie up enemy shooting), or a Greenwing drop pod assault list; well then things are looking different.  In Doublewing you likely have other Deathwing nearby, for support.  Perhaps even the Standard of Fortitude.  In a mostly RW force you have Dark Talons to blind enemies, Black Knights to tie enemy shooters up in assault and even basic RW units to do the same on weaker shooty units.  In a DPA list you can saturate enemy fire priority as well as make sure you have a lot of bodies in a local area.

 

But a stand-off gunline?  Yeah, DWK will not be well supported in that.  They are a highly specialized unit, so how you support them will make all the difference.

[Nightmare84]

This fits my arguement with a lot of people on the Internet. Deathwing knights should not be deepstriked. Why give opponent a turn to neutralize them?

Chuck 5 in a crusader or redeemer. Sure it's 515 points but in a greenwing you have plenty of points left to fill it out.

As long as ou don't eggs in one basket it with your hq too I think it's fine.

 

Roll up a raider dump out your cargo 6 inches and then charge cover or not and watch them do their work.

[Tiger9gamer]

i used them in the past three games with an Ironwing style list. I pop the DWK in a land raider crusader, put my Mace of redemption termie interrogator with them, and push them off towards the enemy flanked by two vindicators. it didnt always worked out, but they stuck around until the end, drawing attention to them instead of my weaker marines.

 

It should be noted that even with half an army fireing at them, they kept my warlord alive till the end (except for when my company master got turned into a spawn mid challenge >.> )

 

think it's better to have them in a mech heavy build, or as stated above.

[elphilo]

I'm going to agree with Ronin_eX. It sounds like you gave your opponent only one scary target to shoot at. With a unit like the Deathwing Knights, you have to have target saturation. Force your opponent to shoot the thing the fear the most, while you have other scary things able to take them out as well.

 

On the lines of getting them there, I'm playing around with an idea of about 7 Deathwing Knights with Belial Deathwing Assaulting on turn one. Then have a Deathwing Command Squad with the FnP banner deep strike near them. Also having a full 10 man Deathwing Terminator Squad with Librarian buff bot deep strike close to also get the FnP. That's a lot right there, and tough as nails with FnP. You charge the Terminator Unit, I get over-watch that will most likely have re-rolls to hit. I'll then be able to support that assault with the Knights. You assault the knights, great, my 10 man Deathwing Squad is going to shoot the hell out of you. 

 

But like all things I think of, it works in my head. I don't know how effective it will be when actually played.

[FarFromSam]

I use a similar gun line list with 7x DWK and have determined their role is based on the obj.

 

In games where the opponent is forced to approach my gun line (More objs on my side/kill points with an assault army/etc) I'll deploy the DWK centered and counter the opponents nasty assault unit.  More favorably, if I have first turn, I'll deploy heavy center and right side leaving a "weak" left side.  The overloaded center/side acts as the anvil.  My opponent can either march through the heavily defended firing lanes, or deploy to take advantage of the exposed flank.... where the DWK will 1st turn DS and become the hammer.  

 

In games where I need to go to them I find it's better to utilize regular deepstrike and use the first, and 2nd, (maybe even 3rd) turns to shoot out units that can cause grief to the DWK, and clear out a landing zone for them.  Plus coming in later helps ensure they will survive to the end of the game where they can contest an objective.  Also the psychological effect of your opponent trying to guess where you'll drop them can cause them to make mental errors.  (at least I catch myself doing this.)

 

I love the unit, and admit bias.  Rule of cool has seized me and I can't find fault with them because of how nice the models are.  Give me a few months for an honest opinion but right now they are the unit I field most often.

 

Good hunting, let me know how you use them.  I still find myself making a dumb play and sending them to their demise and can always use advise.  :cuss

[CovertToaster]

I like DWK but I think that they will generally struggle to make their points back. As a tarpit unit vs MEQ then great; the precision strike can kill any nasty's in the unit with AP2 weapons and they will probably butcher them with few losses but MEQ units usually cost less than 235 points. The only reason I like DWK is that they have storm shields and can strike at initiative but they are only 10 points cheaper than a full 5 man TH/SS unit so I don't know.

 

I would like to say yes that the dice gods will favour you and they will come in, eat a 10 man unit for breakfast and then smite an expensive unit off of the face of whatever planet you found them on  .......but......you know the dice gods!  

[the jeske]

 

 

they keep busy a lot of the enemy units,

 

mission accomplished. you play a gunline army . everything that can keep your opponent busy for 4 turns[including belial] is golden . then only time DWK would suck , is if you had an army where you would want them to surivive [not a good thing for melee units unless they are ultra hard to kill 5th ed style paladin type deathstars] or actualy kill stuff[melee is not a good place to look for kills in 6th ed. tarpiting ,slowing down, finishing units yes . but base of army , not realy].

 

What I think you have here is case of fluff flu . you read about awesome DWK and you want them to be awesome on the table . you want them to do "cool" stuff and survive . That is not their job . ask any chaos player who played in 5th ed , which two types of units were dieing most offten in their armies and they will say DPs and oblits. Does it suck to lose your leader every game ? nope . not when it is his job  .

[Jack Hitchcock]

I agree that che capability to keep busy a lot of enemies for a long time it's a good thing, but it's even true that is not so good to use a unit that can do only half of its job: DWK can do 2 things:
- Soak fire
- Destroy units
And teleporting them to take a lot of fire make them do only the first of the two things.
My doubt infact it's not if they are userful (they are), but if other (shoting) units can be more userful in a iist not "written" around them. Regular DW it's a little bit less durable, but can even kill a lot when come down via teleport!
However sure i will try them again, maybe I simply used them in a wrong way with a too agressive positioning!

Many of you talk about putting in the list ( however it's a test unit list, generally I don't play gunline) more scary unit for saturation. I thought that another deathwing, black night (expecially them) and a twin las dread mortis (even if in the backfield) can be other priority target at 1500... you think not?

 

 

 On the lines of getting them there, I'm playing around with an idea of
about 7 Deathwing Knights with Belial Deathwing Assaulting on turn one.
Then have a Deathwing Command Squad with the FnP banner deep strike near
them.

Thats are almost 650 point of never scoring units, too much in a non deathwing army IMHO, expecially in a gunline list where you have at least 500-700 points of gunline and however you need something deep strike right the DW

[the jeske]

I agree that che capability to keep busy a lot of enemies for a long time it's a good thing, but it's even true that is not so good to use a unit that can do only half of its job: DWK can do 2 things:

- Soak fire

- Destroy units

And teleporting them to take a lot of fire make them do only the first of the two things.

My doubt infact it's not if they are userful (they are), but if other (shoting) units can be more userful in a iist not "written" around them. Regular DW it's a little bit less durable, but can even kill a lot when come down via teleport!

However sure i will try them again, maybe I simply used them in a wrong way with a too agressive positioning!

 

well here starts the question about what list you want to play . A gunline would want just tar piting fire redirection from DWK , if they actualy kill something is just a bonus [a bit like the old 4ed speed demon prince in IW gunline lists]. I dont see anything wrong with your positioning of the unit . if it tarpited the chaos army for 4 turns [with warlord probably siting with the gunline section of the list] , then it worked awesome and there is nothing to change about the use of the unit. now if you deep striked them and lost them in 1 turn , now that would be a problem , because taking IG ally or more tacticals/shoty units and not deep striking would give more utility. even if it would have made the list lacking counter and before you say  bikers , I will point out that because of chaos armies runin 2 drake so offten and so many demon lists spaming flamers +sv3 bikers arent as awesome as some people may thing .

[cypher 89]

i play alot of apoc and  i run 10 deathwing knights with belial in a spartan assault  tank and it caused devastation , they took out a bio titan in 1 round of combat