Best use for wolf guard

[MustangTC]

Alright so I've played a few games now with Terminator wolf guard in my hunter squads and I can honestly say that they are the most amazing defensive melee buff. The combination of the terminator plus the wolf standard is epic. Put all the close combat wounds on him that don't negate his armour and you're laughing as you need to roll a 1 on your armour save and then reroll it with the wolf standard to kill him. Mathematically it takes 36 wounds to kill him!

 

All my TDA wolf guard have been equipped with power axes so far because its so wolfy but I've not been able to allocate to him because he wasn't in base contact. So I'm going to re-equip them with swords/maces (haven't decided yet) so he gets the initiative 4 pile in.

 

I believe there is no better use for a wolf guard.

 

I may give them claw and power/chain fist however.

[SamaNagol]

Terminator with Mace and a MOTW model in the GH pack with the banner is great for taking on other non-elite infantry

[Anaraion]

Alright so I've played a few games now with Terminator wolf guard in my hunter squads and I can honestly say that they are the most amazing defensive melee buff. The combination of the terminator plus the wolf standard is epic. Put all the close combat wounds on him that don't negate his armour and you're laughing as you need to roll a 1 on your armour save and then reroll it with the wolf standard to kill him. Mathematically it takes 36 wounds to kill him!

 

All my TDA wolf guard have been equipped with power axes so far because its so wolfy but I've not been able to allocate to him because he wasn't in base contact. So I'm going to re-equip them with swords/maces (haven't decided yet) so he gets the initiative 4 pile in.

 

I believe there is no better use for a wolf guard.

 

I may give them claw and power/chain fist however.

 

 

What to do with WG...

 

Well looking at the recent threads...

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266228-wolf-guard-terminators-in-a-foot-slogging-list/

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268085-10-wolf-guard-termies-why-doesnt-every-army-take-some/

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268642-wolf-standards-wolf-guard-and-you/

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269541-wolf-guard-loadout-as-allies/

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269684-close-combat-wolf-guard-need-hvy-wpn-yay-or-nay/

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268298-wolf-guard-without-terminator-armour/

 

 

It certainly seems a popular topic and one full of differing opinions.

 

Now I am certainly not the ultimate source but I will try and summarize both to help you and to check my own comprehension.  Most of the real analysis is done in each thread by skeletoro  and he might actually be an expert based on all the detailed analysis on loadouts he brings to these forums.  In other words you may not heed his advice exactly but variance should be very thoughtful and deliberate imho.

 

So best use is as you state in the thread of getting that WGTDA under a wolf banner with some GH.  The basic vanilla load out seems best with SB/Axe.  Some argue a SS and there is a certain psychological threat to that configuration but mathhammer seems to suggest otherwise.  Thus I would suggest you actually leave the WGTDAPL with axes and you can choose combi or plain SB and hopefully with a little better pre-planning you can get that WGTDA to actually land the telling blows.

 

Now you thread title suggests a broader view then your actual post and just to try and make sure I offer the following.  It also is not a bad option to loadout a 5 man WGTDA squad taking 5 of the following 6...

 

CPlas/Axe

CPlas/Axe

CPlas/Sword

CPlas/Axe

SS/Axe

PF/WC

 

Again skeletoro can jump in here anytime and offer his most astute insight.  But with relentless and our low cost swap to combi this is a very lethal force.

 

 

Hope that helps :).

[MustangTC]

So I fielded 4 squads of hunters with power maul wielding TDA WGPLs tonight. They were an amazing speed block to my opponents cc units. On one side they tanked Mephiston, 5 assault termies and 5 sternguard and on the other a giant mob of Orc nobs and a war boss. I must have rolled 50 saves onto these rerolling termies much to my opponents' frustration! The mauls were lacklustre and the unit as a whole didn't kill a lot.

 

I see these units best used to sit on an objective and hold off an attack allowing your own hammers to get into place.

[skeletoro]

I'm flattered, Anaraion :)

 

The more I think about it the more I think that there isn't a single one-size-fits-all solution.

 

That said, axes are excellent. They offer more damage per point spent than just about every other option, and have the flexibility of being able to threaten basically any foe, albeit at the cost of striking at initiative 1.

 

I think that storm shields are only good for protecting expensive units OR in conjunction with a wolf standard. So it's not bad to put one in a WG pack (because you get a 48 point model with twice the durability of your other 33 point models) and it's also quite nice to equip a WGPL with one if you intend to field those grey hunters as a melee unit (because a 3+ save provides 14/18 protection rather than 12/18 protection under the influence of the wolf standard - a 50% increase in longevity - meaning that your WGPL is about as durable as 4 1/2 grey hunters vs AP2, and incidentally, 36 grey hunters vs AP3!!) So, there ARE valid uses for storm shields on wolf guard, for sure. But you have to be careful to use them properly or they won't pay their cost back, statistically.

 

I think wolf guard's strengths are in their ability to provide an extremely high payoff in a single turn. A plasma gun kills about 20/18 MEQ models per round, decremented by invulnerable or cover saves. That's 17.8 points of grey hunter (folding cost of wolf standard in, grey hunters are generally at least 16 points per model) or 29.6 points worth of 40 pt, 5++ terminator (only half vs. hammernators). For a 38 point model, that's pretty damn good. A grey hunter unit with a wolf standard and a 2+/3++ model has a similar ability to become extremely points-efficient during a single round of combat.

 

Why do I put so much stock in this "front-loading" quality? I think front-loading can really turn the tide of a battle early on. In a MEQ vs MEQ assault, a unit of grey hunters with a 2+/3++ and a wolf standard (plus a couple of CC upgrades) might kill anywhere from about 5 to 10 marines. Which is good. But if they don't suffer any casualties themselves while doing this... now THAT'S good. It means a lot for what the board will look like the next turn.

 

That said, if you're using units built for front-loading, I think that you really need to think carefully about your delivery method. c-plas terminators need to be in rapid fire range ASAP (and, ideally, able to charge - this means assault ramps). Similar with melee grey hunters. I think with either option, if you don't use the benefit until turn 3 or 4, after you've already lost half the unit to attrition, the payoff is much lower.

[Anaraion]

As usual some fair points skeletoro, but perhaps you are contridicting yourself again... ;)?

 

I am not sure I buy completely into the front loading concept and point sink of the sheild.  As your own mathhammer in another thread points out...

 

I don't understand the argument that WG terminators (or WG terminators with storm shields) are a good way of absorbing fire. Or, incidentally, the argument that their storm bolters are devastating.

 

Thus while I recognize under the wolf banner there can be some amazing synergy with the SS, I think we need to understand that is very very situational.  In war plans can and must go out the window and one must adapt quickly.  Thus I would think the majority of my units will be more generally kitted out and not so situationally front loaded.  Obviously the more games i get the more I will see the merit or flaws of my theory but as always I appreciate the forums where any theory must be thought out and examined in a controlled and supporting environment.

 

Thanks as always... /bow.

[skeletoro]

Heh, 2 thoughts:

 

1. My position has changed over time as I became aware of the wolf standard synergy

2. Yes, it's somewhat situational, but so are many of the wolf guard options. E.g. Storm bolters: 21 points for a PA WG with 2 shots at 12-24" may be well worth it in a loganwing backfield CML objective holder unit. And it's not THAT situational. As long as you expect your grey hunters to find their way into melee (against some AP2) at some point, it's likely to be fairly worthwhile.

 

I'm not saying it's necessarily better than a combi weapon - that's a very hard call to make.

[Anaraion]

Heh, 2 thoughts:

 

1. My position has changed over time as I became aware of the wolf standard synergy

2. Yes, it's somewhat situational, but so are many of the wolf guard options. E.g. Storm bolters: 21 points for a PA WG with 2 shots at 12-24" may be well worth it in a loganwing backfield CML objective holder unit. And it's not THAT situational. As long as you expect your grey hunters to find their way into melee (against some AP2) at some point, it's likely to be fairly worthwhile.

 

I'm not saying it's necessarily better than a combi weapon - that's a very hard call to make.

 

And that is *exactly* why we are here... to learn, and thank you for bringing so much knowledge to the threads.

 

That said I agree with the synergy between SS and wolf banner.  But as you noted just having your GH run across the board under fire the SS is NOT better than std GHs.  Thus it really is situational if you can get that unit of GH with the WGTDA w/ SS into melee that quick *and* make it count as that one turn is all you get. 

 

I know at times I have had to redirect standard forces to fire, flank, support or whatever.  Now I know I like one real fast moving unit to turn the tide or apply pressure at a critical point and this unit can make a difference, but I need far more units to be versitle and deal with a multitude of issues depending on what is actually happening versus what I planned to happen.

 

And that part is the key.  You and I with exactly the same army list against exactly the same foe with exactly the same set up and the same average rolls would still have different results as your leadership style and mine are not exactly the same.  Either choice here is not a bad options.  Each has it's pros and its cons.  Now each general must pick what they deem best for their army.  I just feel this is a heavy investment for a very situational benefit.  so like Clint Eastwood said "Do you feel lucky punk?"... :)!!

 

That all sound good?

[skeletoro]

Well, it's not so much that the WGPL /w SS is *useless* the rest of the time. It doesn't add any firepower to the pack, true, but then, a single storm bolter or bolter really isn't a huge deal anyway (combi weapons are nice though!). After that first round of assault, he's still laying about with a power axe, and he still has the storm shield. Although you might not choose to allocate AP2 attacks to him rather than grey hunters (really, it depends on how much you feel you're going to need his AP2 for the remainder of the battle), he still gets the benefit of the shield in, say, challenges.

 

Leaving aside the wolf standard, he's not by any means a slouch in combat, but as we've discussed, he's not particularly points efficient. But what DO you get?

 

During a normal round of shooting, a normal grey hunter will deal about 0.11 wounds per bolter shot fired (so, 0.22 with rapid or storm bolter). A TDA WG matches this, and can also fire 2 shots on the charge or at 12-24". Getting a storm shield trades in these 0.22 wounds caused per game turn.

 

A ccw attack deals 0.08 wounds (0.11 with standard), while a power axe deals 0.33 (0.45 with standard) vs MEQ. In a single assault phase, a grey hunter will deal between 0.16 and 0.33 (that's right, charge + standard DOUBLES the grey hunter's damage output!!) while a TDAWG with axe will deal between 0.66 and 1.35. That's roughly 4.1x a grey hunter's damage (for between 2.2x and 3.2x the price).

 

It's worth pointing out that both the grey hunter (and especially the wolf guard with axe) can do FAR more damage in an assault than they ever could with bolters. Adding plasma guns does shift this somewhat - each plasma shot deals .56 wounds vs mech (that's .45 more than the bolter you've traded in, but note that a grey hunter cannot use a plasma gun on the charge). 2 plasma guns in your grey hunters pack will add .9 wounds per round (1.8 when rapid firing) to the 1.1/2.2 that plain grey hunters can deal (so, almost doubling the shooting damage output of the unit as a whole vs MEQ).

 

Buying a combi-plasma for 5 points will also net you an increase of .9 wounds over the storm bolter (for one turn - assuming rapid fire), though you sacrifice an additional .11 for every subsequent round you find yourself shooting at 12-24". Assuming a relatively typical usage scenario of 3 rounds of shooting, (2 rapid, 1 12-24") the TDAWG deals 1.45 wounds worth of damage (vs. .55 dealt by a grey hunter) - that's about 2.6x the shooting power of a grey hunter - for 2.5x the price. This might sound bad, but it's really not. Shooting normally isn't a strength of WG, and for 5 points, you're outperforming grey hunters. AND the extra damage is front-loaded. You're paying 5 points to eliminate .9 MEQ wounds relatively early on in the battle.

 

The SS TDAWG forgoes the opportunity to pick up the combi-plasma (assuming he wants to keep the axe, of course) as well as his storm bolter. So, relative to a standard TDAWG, you're losing .22 wounds dealt per shooting phase (keep in mind that noone gets to shoot if you're locked in combat, however!)

 

What about survivability?

 

Against AP 4+, a WG in TDA has twice the survivability of a grey hunter (but for 2.2-3.2x the price). Not great. Vs AP3, the TDAWG has 6x the survivability of grey hunters. Vs AP1 or 2, the TDA WG has 1.5 or 3x the survivability of a grey hunter (depending on whether he has a SS). Except in the case of AP3, TDA WG offer less survivability per point spent than grey hunters. For this reason, I'd generally avoid positioning WGPLs to absorb shooting attacks (unless you can guarantee you'll only take AP3 fire - but how often is that going to happen?) Wolf guard don't really add much survivability to grey hunters, outside of assault - regardless of loadout.

 

Assault is a different matter entirely. Provided that you can position your WG in base-to-base combat with an enemy model at the appropriate initiative value (yep, this is where swords and wolf claws can be quite useful!) you can choose to allocate all those power sword attacks to your wolf guard. To be honest, this is such a huge perk, that assuming you're positioned correctly, it may be well worth it to decline challenges against certain units (specifically, units with a large number of AP3 attacks) simply to conserve your ability to allocate those AP3 attacks to your wolf guard pack leader. That said, once you allocate to the WGPL, all attacks at that initiative step must also be allocated to him - and in spite of his TDA, he's not very cost-effective at absorbing AP4+ (at least not relative to a grey hunter). If your opponent were to allocate his AP- attacks first, your WGPL may not get an opportunity to intercept the AP3 strikes. So it may or may not pay off.

 

However, as I was saying, the wolf standard changes this. And when I say changes this,  I mean it REALLY changes this. The wolf standard multiplies your success percentage on a d6 by 7/6. So, a 3+ save goes from 24/36 to 28/36 - your grey hunters become (36-24)/(36-28)=1.5x as durable for a single assault phase. That in itself is fantastic (it's about the same as gaining a 5+ FnP save, except that it is negated by AP3 weapons rather than instant death). However, the wolf guard's 2+ save is augmented to a ludicrous degree by the wolf standard - instead of saving 30/36 of the time, you're suddenly saving 35/36 of the time. The wolf standard has increased the WGPL's durability by a factor of (36-30)/(36-35) = 6! Instead of being 2x as durable (as a grey hunter) vs AP4+, 6x as durable vs AP3, and 1.5x times as durable vs AP2, your wolf guard pack leader is now 8x as durable vs AP4+, 36x as durable vs. AP3, and 1.6x as durable vs AP2. In other words, any TDAWG will can make your grey hunters close to invulnerable vs. AP3 or worse for a single assault - the only real worry your unit faces during this round is AP2.

 

Under the effects of the wolf standard, the storm shield increases a TDAWG's survivability vs AP2 by 1.5 - making the model 4.5x as durable as a grey hunter. Provided an abundance of incoming AP2 attacks, the TDAWG will absorb 67.5 points worth of grey hunter wounds in damage before succumbing (on average). The SS-less TDAWG will absorb about 24.5 - so assuming enough incoming AP2 attacks, those 15 points will save about 43 points worth of grey hunters during that phase.

 

 

All this thinking is having some effect on my opinion, however (I know, I tend to flip-flop, but that's what happens when there's no simple comparison to make!).

 

The thing is, while under the effect of the wolf standard, and with a 2+ WG, grey hunters are already very, very durable against anything shy of AP2 - which generally means anything shy of initiative 1. This actually speaks in favour of trying to optimise your loadout for maximum damage output @ init - if you can simply wipe out your enemy before they get to strike back with their power fists, then the storm shield isn't needed anyway!

 

A unit of grey hunters with a wolf standard, 2 flamers and a mark of the wulfen actually deals 6.4 wounds vs. meq on the charge (while under the influence of the standard). That's without adding a power weapon or the power weapon (and, potentially, the combi-plasma shots) of the wolf guard. Adding 2 plasma shots, a power sword upgrade (I'm not saying I'd necessarily take this over a power axe, but just for the sake of the exercise), and 3 extra wolf claw attacks is likely to bring the expected damage pretty close to 10. At which point, you have to wonder - will the storm shield even be needed? There's actually a pretty good chance that this grey hunter unit will wipe out a tactical squad on the charge - and if there are no power fists to attack back, it's quite likely they'll do so without suffering any casualties - storm shield or no. In short, it seems that under reasonable test conditions, the storm shield may not actually *get used* on the turn the grey hunters activate their wolf standard.

 

Something to ponder some more - and I'm starting to feel glad that I'm using magnets :)

[Anaraion]

Something to ponder some more - and I'm starting to feel glad that I'm using magnets

Well as I do not use magnets.... I hate you !!

In all seriousness thank you again for the detailed analysis :).